Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-31-2008, 10:33 AM   #101
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Lest we forget. It is my understanding that Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, and Rob John all have quite different training methods that achieve similar results.
Um, not to pick on you. But, how did you get to that understanding? I've met all three and I certainly couldn't say that their training methods are quite different. Nor could I say they are quite the same.

Mark

Last edited by MM : 01-31-2008 at 10:36 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 10:59 AM   #102
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Hi Tom
Well I tried to make it happen this year but couldn’t make it to Japan or even Seattle. It’s going to happen though.

As for who is best?
I don't really think in those terms. I think of -what- is best- not who.
What if
a. beats b.
But along
b. had a superior method of training but just hadn't been doing it long enough or gotten the most out of it?
What if
a. gives his methods of training to b.
b. develops it to a fair-thee-well and beats a?
What does all that mean?
What if a blending of a, and b.'s methods were best for .....c.! A new student?
I think your idea of advancing the "state of the art" is cool but I think that is way beyond two men or two approaches. I'm sure there are guys with far more experience and skill.
While there is most certainly things that simply are not correct, there are different ways to train things that are *all* correct, just a different way to approach it. I'd agree with Rob that you just may find the goals are amazingly similar and the approach-closely related. So, as I said, in the end I am not concerned about -who is better then whom. I am concerned with *what* is the better way to train...me, Also of interest is what is a better way to train a larger section of people in the arts. Isn't that an intersting question? I have trained over 220 people spanning 18 yrs. I am always trying to improve the way I train and the way I train others. I still think I suck at it. Which is why I won't call myself-in the strictest sense of the word- a teacher. It's also why I don't charge money. I like to think of it as "People just keep showing up while I am training... me." The real key for anyone searching this stuff is- can that guy over there -with power and ability-teach it? Then, will he teach- you. Then, go try out other methods as well. The biggest concern when teaching is to be able to feel and see a persons bad habits and identify what -they are failing to identify in their own bodies. Then the tricky part is to both know how to fix it and be able to demonstrate and get them to fix it. That is what too look for in a teacher. I just don’t think it’s common.

You are one of the groups that has met and trained with all three repeatedly and seen the methods. While I don't use Arks methods I'd bet we had the similar goals in the end. I *think* my approach may be softer, very soft, as you know. With it being more the mental challenging the physical. Is it a slower path to power? You judge. I don't know. You have seen and felt what it does to folks starting from zero, to a year out, two years out, seven, ten, twelve and eighteen. Odd that it appears that is the same time line of usable skills in use in the dojo? How'd that happen? Now that you have trained various methods and sticking with one of them for a while has actually gotten you to the point of being able to -do- some thing’s-the next few years will enable you to go back out and keep researching and judge better for yourself.
I think everyone should own their own training. Smile, wave and wink at the one teaching you...but get out there and experiment and find a method that works for you.

And all that brings me back to my opening paragraph. What is best?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-31-2008 at 11:14 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 11:02 AM   #103
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Um, not to pick on you. But, how did you get to that understanding? I've met all three and I certainly couldn't say that their training methods are quite different. Nor could I say they are quite the same.

Mark
Pick away Mark, I don't mind.
I came to that conclusion from reading their posts in the various forums. I may be way off base.
Your comment however did make things clear as mud for me though.
"I certainly couldn't say that their training methods are quite different. Nor could I say they are quite the same."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 11:32 AM   #104
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Pick away Mark, I don't mind.
I came to that conclusion from reading their posts in the various forums. I may be way off base.
Your comment however did make things clear as mud for me though.
"I certainly couldn't say that their training methods are quite different. Nor could I say they are quite the same."
Well, everyone who has gone to meet people have all come back saying, it has to be felt. You can't, as in not possible, get an idea of what is going on until then.

And then, when you do go, you find that you're starting over, or nearly so, in a lot of aspects. The comprehension isn't there. Maybe a slight understanding of things, but definitely not enough to compare training methodologies. Not at this level.

And I think Chris stated it well,

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
When I came back from meeting Rob the first time, a number of local Seattle folks looked me up to discuss what I'd experienced. A few of these folks had quite extensive martial arts backgrounds: koryu, Chinese arts, aikido... and had even been corresponding for a decent amount of time (up to a year) directly with Rob in an attempt to learn some of the Aunkai methods. Basically, they had the perfect background to be able to understand the Aunkai methods from a distance. All of them were doing things fairly differently than I had been shown in Japan.
Ya gotta feel it/experience it. Otherwise, you aren't going to come close.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 12:12 PM   #105
Tom H.
Location: Rhode Island
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What if
a. beats b.
But along
b. had a superior method of training but just hadn't been doing it long enough or gotten the most out of it?
What if
a. gives his methods of training to b.
b. develops it to a fair-thee-well and beats a?
What does all that mean?
What if a blending of a, and b.'s methods were best for .....c.! A new student?
Yes. If you thought I was saying something else, then I wasn't writing clearly. Can't write more because lunch is over.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 12:40 PM   #106
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote: View Post
Yes. If you thought I was saying something else, then I wasn't writing clearly. Can't write more because lunch is over.
Hey Bud
No problem. I was doing a bit of *using your post* and writing past you to a larger crowd. I just don't want anyone to mistakenly limit themselves to a few options. While I liked your "state of the art" idea, it read too close to the model of perfection, IE "state of the art"-see what I mean? I don't want *anyone* to attach my name to anything being "state of the art." I betcha Ark wouldn't either. I think its more the "state of the exploration of the potentials of the art!" But in a more definitive way than many folks may know or have been exposed to.
The inverse of all of that is the folks who thought THEY were involved in an art that was more akin to *the state of the art* till they felt what this type of training can do.
Anyway, seems to me that we're all a bunch of weird obsessed researchers,- Ellis has probably been right all along-so I doubt any of us would want to even -consider- we know or are near to actually doing anything...complete. I'm still looking forward to the next several decades, and getting better.

Anyway, sorry for any confusion.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-31-2008 at 12:53 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 01:40 PM   #107
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,606
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Please don't use the, "I'm just quoting you..." defense, you are not. With all due respect, you are attempting to describe things which you do not understand by attempting to wedge them into what you already know.... That's not a personal attack, that's just math.
Well, not math anyway. I claim no respect, so none is due me. However, if you don't want your observations compared, contrasted or examined with mine or others, don't make them. I expect mine to be compared, contrasted and challenged, by the very act of making them, and so welcome Rob's or anyone else's substantive comments, even negative ones, in response, as it improves all perspectives, hopefully.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I'm genuinely glad that you have a training paradigm that you enjoy and take pleasure in, but don't assume that it's all the same. ...
I did not, and rather explicitly and at some length explored some differences -- and there are, no doubt, others ... Likewise, don't assume that its all different either. I am trying to fairly clear about differences that I do see, so making me out to say, "It's all the same," is neither accurate nor lending any great insight to whatever errors I am sure I have made.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
If you're interested, even just so you can proclaim to the world that you already know it, go check it out. Otherwise, please stop attempting to describe that which you do not know.
There is no privileged point of observation in the universe. If we can know the temperature of the Sun wihti a reasonable margin without ever touching it -- there are things that can be usefully observed about ways of training the human body (which last I looked -- we all share -- unless you have a REALLY interesting heritage) that do not REQUIRE "face time." I do not begin to pretend that a written forum is remotely equivalent, but it has its uses -- and dismissive assumptions to the contrary should be made sparingly, both ways.

"An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. It isn't just saying, 'No it isn't' "

"Yes, it is."

"No, it isn't"

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 02:04 PM   #108
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo & Kiko - NY, PA, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 995
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Erick, that's not an argument, that's contradiction . . .

(ooh, you know you want to take the bait )

Seriously, though, I'll keep saying, too, to go out and see what people are doing. I understand why it's good to question testimonials in isolated cases, but I think at some point, to have substantive input on the topic (I know I sure don't), it's gotta be felt in person (between all parties that are debating).

Taikyoku Mind & Body
http://taikyokumindandbody.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 02:09 PM   #109
John Connolly
Dojo: NYC Icho Ryu
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 80
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

We all know the sun is hot.

I want to train with the sun and get hot too.

Or, I could write about how I am like the sun, and wear a big yellow hat...

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 02:22 PM   #110
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 919
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Erick, I'll be perfectly honest, I dislike a flippant/humorous comment of mine being used as evidence for your exposition of the Aunkai methods. That's silly.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
There is no privileged point of observation in the universe. If we can know the temperature of the Sun wihti a reasonable margin without ever touching it -- there are things that can be usefully observed about ways of training the human body (which last I looked -- we all share -- unless you have a REALLY interesting heritage) that do not REQUIRE "face time." I do not begin to pretend that a written forum is remotely equivalent, but it has its uses -- and dismissive assumptions to the contrary should be made sparingly, both ways.
Yes, certainly there are some things we can talk about without direct physical contact. I think Peter Goldsbury's articles on Transmission and Inheritance are excellent examples. I do not think that going into what it is the Aunkai is actually teaching without any hands on experience is one of those things. Measuring the temperature of the sun is simply non sequitur as far as I'm concerned. As an example, I'd been doing ten chi jin for a little over a year when we had Ark out. He moved my hips back about a cm, and rotated my hands (in place) about 15 degrees and it changed the whole practice. That's the kind of understanding that you're never going to get over the internet. You wouldn't even get it just being in class. You need someone to physically move you into the correct position. The difference was night and day in terms of what was going on in/with my body after the adjustment.

Honestly, there are privileged points of observation. The assertion that there isn't is absurd. Why don't you think we have many observatories here in downtown Seattle? Don't confuse frames of reference with points of observation, they are different, and are just as out of place in this discussion as when people bring up the uncertainty principle WRT macroscopic phenomena.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 02:25 PM   #111
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 532
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Just do the Aunkai walking cross drills for an hour or so before every class, that usually renders mine completely flaccid for at least the remainder of class.

/dang I'm helpful!
Sorry Chris but being well into middle age I refuse to do anything that leads to flaccidity! I'll just continue to focus on getting it up in Agete and brag about how hard the Aunkai drills are!


~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 03:18 PM   #112
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,606
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Erick, I'll be perfectly honest, I dislike a flippant/humorous comment of mine being used as evidence for your exposition of the Aunkai methods.
Humor is only funny because it contains truth, and even funnier if the truth seems not intended.

I am not expounding the Aunkai methods, only comparing the exposition of them by others to what I have experienced. Belittle my experience all you want, but why take issue when I have been fairly clear, and please try being constructive, vice combative.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
... moved my hips back about a cm, and rotated my hands (in place) about 15 degrees and it changed the whole practice. That's the kind of understanding that you're never going to get over the internet. ... You need someone to physically move you into the correct position. The difference was night and day in terms of what was going on in/with my body after the adjustment.
And yet, strangely, just such subtle adjustments are kind of the thing that I seem to notice, point out and successfully correct with some fair regularity -- and which I learned in a way not related to Aunkai. I don't pretend they are the same errors or the same corrections or anything in regard to their relative performance, just that the claim of disproportionate results from subtle alterations is hardly unique or even terribly uncommon across an entire swath of arts.
Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Honestly, there are privileged points of observation. The assertion that there isn't is absurd. Why don't you think we have many observatories here in downtown Seattle?
That's a strawman exaggeration of my point. We are talking about the human body. The human body is not structured different for you than it is for me. The same observations are available to me about my body as are available to you about yours, and within broad limits what is observable about my body is applicable to yours and vice versa, providing a ready frame of common reference, absent gross deformity. Only what we know about it or are careful enough to observe about it may differ. But that is the quality of the observation -- not any privilege in terms of the observational information that is available to one that is unavailable to the other . Hence my focus is typically on mechanics, objective markers, for what is done or the effects of what is done is a fair measure of what is intended to be done.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 04:13 PM   #113
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 919
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Humor is only funny because it contains truth, and even funnier if the truth seems not intended.
Eh? OK, you probably wouldn't find Charlie the Unicorn funny then. Don't bother looking for it on Youtube. There's no truth in it, so it must not be funny.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I am not expounding the Aunkai methods, only comparing the exposition of them by others to what I have experienced.
Hmm, when you write "what you are actually doing" I can't help but read that you are at least attempting to describe what they are doing. No?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
And yet, strangely, just such subtle adjustments are kind of the thing that I seem to notice, point out and successfully correct with some fair regularity -- and which I learned in a way not related to Aunkai. I don't pretend they are the same errors or the same corrections or anything in regard to their relative performance, just that the claim of disproportionate results from subtle alterations is hardly unique or even terribly uncommon across an entire swath of arts.
I'm sorry you missed my point entirely here. I wasn't saying that subtle correction was unique to the Aunkai. What I was attempting to say was that if the exercises require a degree of specificness that requires such subtle corrections to *really* approach the intended lessons, then simply watching videos even with excellent exposition will not get you close enough.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
That's a strawman exaggeration of my point. We are talking about the human body. The human body is not structured different for you than it is for me. The same observations are available to me about my body as are available to you about yours, and within broad limits what is observable about my body is applicable to yours and vice versa, providing a ready frame of common reference, absent gross deformity. Only what we know about it or are careful enough to observe about it may differ. But that is the quality of the observation -- not any privilege in terms of the observational information that is available to one that is unavailable to the other . Hence my focus is typically on mechanics, objective markers, for what is done or the effects of what is done is a fair measure of what is intended to be done.
So let me get this straight. It is not a leap of logic for you to imply that because the surface temperature of the sun can be *estimated* (measured wouldn't be the word I would use) from a great distance, you can know with a high degree of certainty what a martial system aims to teach without any direct contact? But my point is somehow a strawman argument? Actually, it wasn't an argument at all, it was an example of how your assertion that there are no privileged points of observation is not a natural law. There are no privileged frames of reference, but that's a different concept and deals mainly with the constant nature of the speed of light. It does however assume that the observer and the thing to be observed are within the same frame of reference. In that context, my comment about observatories in Seattle was extremely relevant to my point, and not a strawman argument at all, but a clear example of where the principle you stated (there are no privileged points of observation) was in fact false or a misunderstanding of an actual natural law (there are no privileged frames of reference).

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:06 PM   #114
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Um, not to pick on you. But, how did you get to that understanding? I've met all three and I certainly couldn't say that their training methods are quite different. Nor could I say they are quite the same.
Hi Mark:

I actually don't think you could get a great feel for what/how I teach out of that 1.5 hour class, but just for funsies let's say you got sort of an idea. And you've seen Dan and you've seen Ark and Rob. And you're discussing similarities and differences, yada, yada.

There's one thing that this conversation reminded me of and I'd like to amend a previous statement about how you get what you can where you can and then work and think on it. There's another possibility that I've noted occurs too often, in my experience. It goes like this:

I see a guy at a full-blown workshop and one of the first things I do is get a quick read on who knows what. I tend to look for the first level of error in people. For instance, a guy who can maybe utilize jin to some extent is OK as a starter. But if he uses a lot of shoulder instead of dantien, then that's where he needs to start fresh from because everything above that level, he's already polluted with shoulder usage. Many people will balk at that idea because they "already know how to do jin", BTW. OK, so we go through the whole workshop and I see the guy in a year. He hasn't changed. He's gone to workshops by 3 other guys and at each one he "starts doing it the way Joe Blow teaches it", instead of working on the basic stuff. In other words, he's not able to understand what's going on and therefore he's not selective in whose material he adheres to or the reasons *why* he works on certain things. So he never makes any progress.

Find out what these things are and FIRST understand them. Then work on them logically and consistently. The people who "do a little of this" and then "do a little of that" never get anywhere, IME. It's a real danger. There are so many people who "hold this posture" or "do standing practice like they do in Yiquan" or who "do stretches" and yada, yada, yada.... because those are the cool things they think they're supposed to do. But if they don't understand exactly what they're supposed to be doing in those various exercises, it's a waste of time.

Incidentally, when I see people and feel them, I know at what level they truly understand things by the level I can feel in them. Unless they can do something, they don't really understand it very well, even if they have a general academic idea about things.

So back to the original comment about what Akuzawa, Dan, and I do that is different or similar to each other. As far as I can tell from all the conversations, there is *some* commonality around the jin/kokyu level. But heck, that's just the basic entre'. There's so much beyond that, that it's not even funny.

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 08:26 PM   #115
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,606
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Eh? OK, you probably wouldn't find Charlie the Unicorn funny then. Don't bother looking for it on Youtube. There's no truth in it, so it must not be funny.
High marks as a judge of people. To the contrary, "it's a magical leopleurodon, Charlie." More to the point: "Shun! Shun the non-believer! Shuuuuuun!" Nope, no truth there at all. I still have my kidney, though.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Hmm, when you write "what you are actually doing" I can't help but read that you are at least attempting to describe what they are doing. No?
No. And to drag this back on topic, what was your experience of the chinkon kishin or related kokyu undo before you sought out Aunkai?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
... if the exercises require a degree of specificness that requires such subtle corrections to *really* approach the intended lessons, then simply watching videos even with excellent exposition will not get you close enough.
For some perhaps, for others not necessarily -- depending on their prior training. Try tracking in rotor blades as a helo maintenance check pilot. 58 foot diameter rotor turning at 298 rpm and you have to track four blades to less than one inch vertical separation apart. You get quite good at seeing small changes in relative movement for purposes of adjustment. I've analyzed the mechanics operating in a number of videos here and there on this forum. Some have not agreed that I necessarily got everything that was going on, but so far none have rebutted the mechanics of what I did see.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 08:50 PM   #116
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I've analyzed the mechanics operating in a number of videos here and there on this forum. Some have not agreed that I necessarily got everything that was going on, but so far none have rebutted the mechanics of what I did see.
Well I think you may misunderstand the tolerence. Someone brought you up today. You're a pretty nice guy in a debate, but no one who can do these things takes you seriously. Either those more advanced or those starting out.
As for observational mechanics:
As I have put to you before can you stand there with a 6' 3" weght lifter pushing on your chest horizontally and then pushing upward 45 deg and not move and yet be unmoved? How about someone with some real skills trying to push you over? How about Master level guys?

a. Where is there anything observable and definable in the non-movement that you have successfully anylized mechanically?
b. if you can't, then of what vaule is there to anything you have to say in the matter.

I have met any manner and number of guys- who have talked my ears off- who can't do a damn thing. What do I care about a theory from a guy who can't make it work. I look at them sometimes, and I think- as Trace Adkins said to Bill Maher "You need to shut-up."
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-31-2008 at 08:52 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 09:25 PM   #117
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 919
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
No. And to drag this back on topic, what was your experience of the chinkon kishin or related kokyu undo before you sought out Aunkai?
That's a fair question, I'll try to go into more detail tomorrow, I don't really have the time tonight, plus I'm tired...

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You get quite good at seeing small changes in relative movement for purposes of adjustment. I've analyzed the mechanics operating in a number of videos here and there on this forum. Some have not agreed that I necessarily got everything that was going on, but so far none have rebutted the mechanics of what I did see.
You're still missing what we're saying, the difference between "not it" and "it" is very nearly impossible to see, because everyone will look slightly different depending on their bodies and there is NO real discernible difference from the outside. You *need* the physical interaction and feedback of someone more skilled than yourself to really get very far. I would wager money that you would not be able to move Rob, let alone Ark in the 'pushout exercise' even with light resistance, I don't care how much mechanics you claim to understand. So far I have met one person who could move me (*ME* crappy old *ME*) doing the pushout the first time they tried it, and they were a long time student of Don Angier. I was a guest instructor at a local Aikido dojo recently and I did the push-our instead of kokyu ho at the end of class. I went around the room and no one could move me even with what I considered *no* resistance. I'm not bragging, I'm just trying to really hammer home the idea that it's different, and that you have to feel it. You cannot see the difference, you can barely feel it. But then, like Dan says...

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 10:33 PM   #118
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,606
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
but no one who can do these things takes you seriously. Either those more advanced or those starting out.....I look at them sometimes, and I think- as Trace Adkins said to Bill Maher "You need to shut-up."
Really Dan. get this right. I have nothing I need to prove nor any need for yours or any one else's approval. In fact I find it fascinating that my questioning brings forward this dismissive aggression.

All learning is not a matter of throwing down. You work out whatever you have to work out, and I'll do likewise. If you were in Mobile I'd visit sometime; as it is, you are not and I have many other things to do. I have no reputation I wish to burnish and no seminars to schedule or coteries of students to attract. I wish to follow personal knowledge where it leads me, not what any authority tells me about it. You can discuss with me as an equal or talk down to me as you wish, my purpose is served by anything I glean from the discussion and I really could not care less the tone in which it is transmitted. Anything you say derogatory or otherwise can be of use to me.

Rob's criticism of my comments was fair and well-taken and in the spirit of his valuable contributions in describing what he actually trains to do. His view of me may be just as low as yours, but he at least has the gentlemanly manner of addressing his disagreements. You might reciprocate, for his sake, if not mine.

The videos previously offered on things that you suggest, by those who are held out as doing them as you suggest they are done -- have all been mechanically explainable, and they all "moved." Post a video sometime and let us see if your action differs from them in some significant regard. The camera doesn't lie, if you know what to look for; and while by no means complete information, its information is repeatable, quantifiable, and therefore within its bounds -- more reliable.

So. Do I take it you have nothing to add to the discussion on chinkon kishin or related kokyu undo?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 10:43 PM   #119
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,606
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
...very nearly impossible to see,
= "not impossible." I've seen Ark in a "pushout" video.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I'm just trying to really hammer home the idea that it's different, and that you have to feel it. You cannot see the difference, you can barely feel it.
And there are very important dynamic things, deadly ones actually, that you can see but cannot feel -- if you do not know what they are, find a pilot and ask him.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I would wager money that you would not be able to move Rob, let alone Ark in the 'pushout exercise' even with light resistance, I don't care how much mechanics you claim to understand.
I addressed the wager with Rob. But the point of the discussion is not to count coup but to see what aspects of the experience of these things relates, if at all, to chinkon kishin and the kokyu undo. And I don't feel the need to defend the latter in that context, I just want to know what your experience of them has been -- in comparison or contrast.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-31-2008 at 10:47 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 07:39 AM   #120
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Erik
Sorry you took it that way. In retrospect, I should have more clearly delineated the former comments addressing you-which weren't bad- from the later, the culmination of dealing with those who know so much but can do little. Truly that wasn't aimed your way.

As for the tone? There wasn't one. I was trying to point out what Chris was pointing out as well. You took an exercise that you don't know and told them what they are doing. Since they can do them and you can't, its pretty strange to see you correct them about things they do. A couple of years ago when we started talking about this you were telling me and Mike how these things work in the body. I told you, you were way off base. You told me I don't understand the physics behind what I do. So I asked you then and I asked you in the last post-could you do what I described. You openly admitted you couldn't. Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd to be arguing with folks about how -they- are training to do a thing you yourself can't do?
Again, no insult intended. Years of meeting folks who can talk and analyze and deconstruct, and debate but can't do anything substantial lead to one inescapable conclusion. If you can't do, then you don't know, you're only guessing.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 09:12 AM   #121
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 919
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
= "not impossible." I've seen Ark in a "pushout" video.
Wow. Just wow. Of course you can see someone do the pushout, but you cannot simply see what they are doing. If someone can be doing the pushout with me, feeling me, watching me and they can't tell what I'm doing, how on earth do you expect me to believe you can understand how it works by seeing a video. Wow.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
And there are very important dynamic things, deadly ones actually, that you can see but cannot feel -- if you do not know what they are, find a pilot and ask him.
non sequitur much?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I addressed the wager with Rob. But the point of the discussion is not to count coup but to see what aspects of the experience of these things relates, if at all, to chinkon kishin and the kokyu undo. And I don't feel the need to defend the latter in that context, I just want to know what your experience of them has been -- in comparison or contrast.
So here's the thing, I don't care how much someone can intellectualize budo. If they can't do it, and teach it, I don't think they really get it.

But, as promised, my experience of Chinkon Kishin by Chris Moses age 34.

So I've done this in classes with Anno Sensei, Linda Holiday and Mary Heiny. We did the whole series, exactly as written in the linked article. The article actually goes into more detail than I got from anyone presenting the practice in person. It wasn't pure visual mimicry, there was some exposition, but not much.

So let's look at my frame of reference, at the time I learned these, I had a background in the Ki Society meditations/ki exercises from my time with Seikikai, and I was studying at a Mary Heiny related school.

My experience of CK at the time: It was a nice moving meditation and settling practice. It helps get air through the lungs and helped remove the stresses of the outside world. It was quite focusing. As far as headspace goes, it reminded me a lot of the Ki Society full exhalation/inhalation seated meditation that I used to do. I always seemed to get that slightly light feeling, like someone was turning the contrast down and the brightness up. Physically, it felt like a nice way to loosen the body and get rid of tension. If one was using the 'one point' paradigm, you could easily practice it as a way of using the limbs to amplify the movements of the hara (kokyu undo, stirring the pot...).

How it affected my training or understanding of techniques? None. Zero. It's entirely possible to do the entire series without any of the body dynamics I'm now studying. You felt good afterwards, but it was a similar feeling to doing some of the 70's tense-relax meditations.

Now I would probably treat it as an exercise to see how much structure and connection I could maintain while moving in an externally supple fashion, and I would focus a LOT less on amplifying the movement of the hara through the limbs.

Here's a question for folks (not a strawman, a real question): In this text, in what has been related to me by Anno Sensei (and others), and further as I wrote in my 'book report' on "Spirit of Aikido" there is a consistent assertion that the goal of aikido training in general, and CK training in specific, is to allow the body/practitioner to unify with the ki-flow of the universe. It feels as if one is taking the self out of the equation, to allow a divine/spiritual power entry. This concept is echoed in OSensei's comments about masagatsu agatsu katsu hayabi (winning over everything in accordance with the mission of heaven). This *seems* to me a slightly different take on ki/chi and its usefulness to the martial artist from what I have read in Chinese arts, where there *seems* to be the idea that one is developing the skill to manipulate, store, or otherwise interact with (at least partially) ones own ki/qi with *intention*. Does anyone want to comment on that?

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 09:55 AM   #122
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,606
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Sorry you took it that way....I told you, you were way off base. You told me I don't understand the physics behind what I do. So I asked you then and I asked you in the last post-could you do what I described. You openly admitted you couldn't.
You just can't resist tossing gauntlet after gauntlet, can you? I figure you must run out of gloves sooner or later. While taking allowable implications of a statement and laying them out as I did with Chris to prompt further discussion is fair, your representation of what I have actually said is simply false. It is all online -- so if you wish to argue my words back at me, use them -- don't falsely attribute or gloss my statements -- quote me, preferably in context, with a forum link for reference.

I will not be baited into responding to the same strawman you have paraded before. You seem attempting to do the same now. I have been fairly clear before about the reasons why your tests are not adequately stated. I will summarize briefly, again. In the past you have attempted to game the ambiguities in your own statement of such tests in response to my good faith efforts to get you to more clearly define your criteria. You propose an experiment, but your conditions, while making a show of specifics, in fact remain fundamentally unstated.

You've never given a sufficient illustration or demonstration for your "test" of what "not moving" entails so as to duplicate the conditions to see if our experience would be similar or not. Nod and wink allusions to "those who know," while entertaining as rhetorical flourishes, are not substantive persuasive arguments. They are demeaning assertions of presumptive authority. Since as far as I am concerned, you have none I am bound to recognize, I disregard them. These ambiguities you have proved yourself poised to exploit as "gotcha" debate enders -- and are doing so, yet again. It's not even clever argument, much less addressing any substantive merit in the question.

It does not end anything. Truth is not determined in that manner. Ark's videos are available to be seen for things like pushout drills, and others, and do not suffer these ambiguities. They are illuminating to watch and also involve being moved, even if relatively little -- for what it is worth. Rob unambiguously describes his training and its actual process of operation from input movements, process and result. Whether in Rob's or anyone else opinion there is much more that may not be disclosed by either video or written description, may be so. Brag and counter-brag, however, prove nothing -- and only braggarts think otherwise. And of course, I would not wish to believe you one of those.

This is made doubly problematic by the simple fact that every illustration of O Sensei and others offered as mysteriously "not moving" by persons engaged in this recurrent debate all involved actual moving. To make this all more relevant to the topic at hand, they also seem to track rather well, oddly enough, with the chinkon kishin and related kokyu undo under discussion. It is a tradition of training that I have and do practice. So if those are the standards, your criteria leave a lot out in terms of quantifying what you mean to be different. It is not even clear if it is meant to differ from that tradition of training, or what experience of it you have in making that judgment or comparison -- if you are.

But, enough of that. Do you have anything to offer of your own experience or understanding by whatever means regarding the chinkon kishin or kokyu undo.

I think that is the third time I asked this question. I ask it again, in full expectation of nothing but more ad hominem. In this expectation I likely hope in vain to be disappointed. But I do hope.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 10:05 AM   #123
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 919
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Erick, what lessons have you taken from Chinkon Kishin and how often would you say you practice it? For how long at a time? Thx.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 10:10 AM   #124
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
there is a consistent assertion that the goal of aikido training in general, and CK training in specific, is to allow the body/practitioner to unify with the ki-flow of the universe. It feels as if one is taking the self out of the equation, to allow a divine/spiritual power entry. This concept is echoed in OSensei's comments about masagatsu agatsu katsu hayabi (winning over everything in accordance with the mission of heaven). This *seems* to me a slightly different take on ki/chi and its usefulness to the martial artist from what I have read in Chinese arts, where there *seems* to be the idea that one is developing the skill to manipulate, store, or otherwise interact with (at least partially) ones own ki/qi with *intention*. Does anyone want to comment on that?
One cannot seperate oneself from the universe. Your ki is the universes' ki and the universes' ki is your ki.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 11:17 AM   #125
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
This is made doubly problematic by the simple fact that every illustration of O Sensei and others offered as mysteriously "not moving" by persons engaged in this recurrent debate all involved actual moving.
I disagree. There have been a number of descriptive analyses involving non-moving demonstrations of the basic force skill. "Not moving" is, of course, a relative idea (as has been caveated a number of times before). The basic kokyu/ki skill in relation to simple forces (which most of these discussions have stayed at.... the simple level of discussion) can be seen in this picuture:
http://www.neijia.com/OneLegPushOriginal.jpg

That's about as "not moving" as you can reasonably get, Erick... even though I fully expect you to counter with something like how in reality nothing is ever still, the universe is in motion, brownian movement, or whatever. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion that the above-pointed illustration is of an action that is "not moving". It is static. That means that the analysis is simple mechanics and does not need to make the unnecessary trip into angular momentum in order to be understood.

Also, that's the same basic force-skill (bear in mind that there are many levels of expertise, even in something this simple) that applies to "the secret of Aikido" in all its various forms. It is also the essence of many/most/all of the things that are practiced in Chinkon Kishin. Everything boils down to the same thing. And remember that we haven't really covered what happens in the breathing training... the other half of the equation.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5 Peter Goldsbury Columns 69 12-31-2008 11:41 AM
Poll of Chinkon Kishin training (or variations) Erick Mead Training 6 02-07-2008 12:34 PM
Western religion and Aikido John Matsushima Spiritual 79 02-25-2007 09:16 AM
Ouija Boards, Ki, and "Spirituality" Mike Sigman Spiritual 46 09-06-2006 01:06 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:21 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate