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Old 01-31-2008, 04:26 PM   #101
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Dan wrote:

Quote:
There are still defensive tactics systems that claim to teach effective techniques using only the officer’s natural instinctive movements. Wouldn’t that be wonderful? Almost no training necessary. You’d be out of business
I think you can distill stuff down and simplify things quite a bit. You can narrow the scope of the training to fit the situations that are most common.

For our soldiers, we stopped teaching joint locks, strikes, kicks, garotte chokes and all that stuff that traditionally was called "Combatives" or Jiujitsu from the 1940s - mid 1990s to 2000. not that it does not work, but that it is too specific and assumes away much that needs to take place prior to these things working. Translated: It requires you to spend alot of time learning things in order to make these seemingly simple, yet really complex in some aspects.

So, we re-looked at it, and found that basically you must work on the "macro" first. that is, "taking center", kusushi, establishing dominance...or what ever you like to call it.

So then you teach macro muscle memory, that is developing a spontaneous and instinctual response or flinch that falls in line with normal movements.

you then spend your precious practice time committing this to muscle memory until in becomes normal and instinctual.

High payoff, less time, natural movement or spontaneous flinch response.

On another note. I always talk to the guys that like to carry big knifes on the kit. I ask them why. Naturally they say so they have a backup if they need it. most do not actually practice using it.

So, when the fight goes bad...statistics show that they never think about using it because they had not ever committed to muscle memory drawing the knife over and over until in become instinctual.

Those same individuals might even have practiced some sophisticated techniques of slashing stabbing what not like kali or something.

However, not practicing reaching for it in their web gear. Feeling the pressure of it on their hip, the cordura of the sheath, the snap that you have to unfasten...the emotions that run wild in a fight...well I think you see the point!

Training properly can be done in the same amount of time that you commit to empty hand or close range combatives....IF you focus on teaching the right things. This translates into what many call ALIVENESS.

Teaching kotegaeshi, nikkyo, sankyo type techniques from a static position of training before you have learned the macro skills of body movement are a waste of time when you consider practical application for professional purposes, IMO.

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Old 01-31-2008, 04:27 PM   #102
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
David

Thank you for your response. I wasn't personally offended by your earlier post. I think that the tone of that post seemed so different from your usual ones that I was startled by it.
In all honesty, the post came soon after I was on a building search, with me as the point, the building dark, and the second man in just deciding to separate from me, go to the other side of the room we were in and started looking all around - putting us in a cross-fire position. kind of got me a little more involved in the thread than usual - I'm thinking.

d

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Old 01-31-2008, 04:50 PM   #103
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Just read this right now - in Grossman's "On Combat" - felt it relevant:

"Consider a shooting exercise introduced by the FBI and taught in police agencies for years. Officers were drilled on the firing range to draw, fire two shots, and then reholster. While it was considered good training, it was subsequently discovered in real shootings that officers were firing two shots and reholstering - even when the bad guy was still standing and presenting a deadly threat! Not surprisingly, this caused not just a few officers to panic and, in at least one case, it is believed to have resulted in an officer's death. Today, in most police agencies, officers are taught to draw, fire, scan and assess. Ideally,(however), the warrior should train to shoot until the deadly threat goes away, so it is best to fire at targets that fall after they have been hit with a variable number of shots...You do not rise to the occasion in combat, you sink to the level of your training. Do not expect the combat fairy to come bonk you with the combat wand and suddenly make you capable of doing things that you never rehearsed before. It will not happen. There must be a continual effort to develop realistic simulations training so the warrior develops a set of skills that will transfer to reality. One two-tour Vietnam veteran put it this way:

'In Vietnam, I was always surprised to find I had done the right thing in tight situations. I sort of went into automatic and didn't think about what I was doing, or even remember it later. I'm a firm believer in training, that dull, boring 'If I have to do this one more time I'll scream' training that every GI hates. It lets people like me perform in combat when common sense was telling me to run like hell.'"
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:45 PM   #104
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

I think you can distill stuff down and simplify things quite a bit. You can narrow the scope of the training to fit the situations that are most common.

snip...

So, we re-looked at it, and found that basically you must work on the "macro" first. that is, "taking center", kusushi, establishing dominance...or what ever you like to call it.

So then you teach macro muscle memory, that is developing a spontaneous and instinctual response or flinch that falls in line with normal movements.

you then spend your precious practice time committing this to muscle memory until in becomes normal and instinctual.

High payoff, less time, natural movement or spontaneous flinch response.
Kevin,

We are totally in sinc even though we work with different groups. Fine tuned muscle memory simply does not exist when the heart beats fast. If folks cannot train regularly, they need "instinctive" movements that they place in their "in basket file" rather than somewhere in their archived storage files. The simple approach to a 3 day seminar for private citizens should focus on "Position before submission/technique". We often call this Tai Sabaki or Tai Jitsu. It should come before Te Jitsu.

IF YOU CANNOT GET OUT OF IT, GET INTO IT.
DANGER...GO FORWARD!
TAKE CENTER
DO NOT BACK OFF
TRUST YOUR WEAPONS (hands, feet, head, shoulder hips)

Traditional Aikido is a whole different training philosophy based on long range goals, sophisticated movement, and training the body to keep a regulated pulse.

Aikido could also improve in how it teaches by making things more instinctive. But this is a very different conversation..... One well worth discussing, however.
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:02 PM   #105
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Yes, I agree Chris.

don't think I have posted these already, but if I have, I appologize.

Rules for a Gunfight
Anonymous
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket."
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don't drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)
19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".
25. You can't miss fast enough to win.

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Old 02-02-2008, 12:51 PM   #106
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Greetings folks,

I had some fun after our workout this Saturday morning at the Mojo.
Some of the Yudansha hung around to uke for me. Everything is a first take so be kind....

Aiki Gunman - Handgun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96JQhiXRkw4

Aiki Gunman - Rifle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmbbYseOpXo

Aiki No Jitsu Gunman - Rifle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4RxEedbeFU

Aiki Perp Dupes 3 Agents
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTANO8cud3s
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:57 PM   #107
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Looks like you guys are having fun.

I was training MOUT today and teaching weapons retention on room clearing. No time to do video.

If you have time, it would be good to see your take on weapons retention.

I concentrate on proper "combat crouch" and posture, always driving forward into the room, once the weapon is grabbed continue driving forward, extending out through the end of the barrel, resist pulling back, but going forward. Then doing small circles, much like the jo. You end up with a variety of things that look familiar to us. nikkyo, being the predominate one.

Anyway, I'd love to see your take on this from the other perspective, that is "good guy" weapons retention.

Fun stuff!

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Old 02-02-2008, 06:34 PM   #108
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Kevin,

The rifle and pistol techniqurs are the same whether you are the man holding the weapon or not. It is a matter of who claims the other's center with irimi. This stuff is the essence of my no-sword style. Obviously, at arm's reach, no-sword style is safer against an M-4 than it is a 4 foot razor blade. Only one real place the weapon can kill you and there are more ways to grab hold of it.

The Aiki Perp taking out 3 agents will be taken off Youtube in 3 days. I just do not want the general public seeing it. It is real rudimentary jujitsu movement and can be easily duplicated by non aikidoka.
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:47 AM   #109
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

used our dojo to ply his trade in Ocean beach, CA before he moved to what is now a dojo run by Bernice Lam.
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Old 06-21-2008, 10:50 AM   #110
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Talking Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

if i could make corrections on that previous info. the dojo in ocean beach is currently ran by Bernice Tom Sensei 6 dan iwama style aikido and not Bernice Lam. just future reference
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:10 AM   #111
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Listen, I know others have said this somewhere. At least I remember reading it......But I'd like to go there for a second.

Police have some of the highest rates of divorce, drug addictions, domestic abuse,anger management problems, and other demon-like forces than any of our public servants/warriors. So the idea of what is 'effective' for them immdiately turns to what is 'effective in assisting them maintain balance' in such an unbalanced occupation. When aikido is offered there are suddenly middle choices, humane choices, and emotionally sustainable choices offered. There are then relatable skills to an effective life offered, which supports our officers in the field and at home and in the heart. This is very great when combined with all the other defense skills officers are trained in; which I also advocate for.
I'd like to keep this general at the moment but I would be willing to go into details of what I've seen in officer training in another post.
I simply want to put out that there are many dimensions to being 'effective' and self-defending.
And if any of you know if George Sensei is out there watching threads, maybe we can get him to comment here. I'd love to be further educated and to hear what he has to say.
Thanks,
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-02-2008 at 10:13 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:33 PM   #112
Michael Hackett
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

If an officer wishes to make his life better in general, to become a better person who is more centered, then Aikido is probably a good path. In order to do that though, he must first survive some of the terrible things which will confront him. Aikido can certainly help in that regard. Aikido is an effective art for police service in most respects and is far better than anything we teach in the academies. It simply isn't enough for most of us and we need at least some exposure to other arts as well. Ground fighting (Gracie BJJ) and some striking art are valuable additions. I think that in the hands of a superb practitioner, a Ledyard, an Ikeda, a Koga, Aikido is enough. For most of us Officer Lunchboxes, we need a little more. Assuming a thirty year career, about the time we get really, really good at Aikido, we leave for the proverbial rocking chair.

All that being said, Aikido is a terrific skill for police agents here in the West and I wish more officers could train regularly in the art. I know for sure that I would have been a far better deputy sheriff had I been able to train in Aikido during my career for many reasons.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 07-02-2008, 04:22 PM   #113
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Aikido is certainly an option for people to see a middle way or work as somewhat of a healing process. It seems to work for me.

It isn't the pancea for all people. They have to connect to it in that regard.

Some people will use BJJ, some will use Racquetball, Boxing, Soccer, meditation...counseling, bike riding...whatever it may be that works for them.

It may not necessarily be aikido.

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Old 07-03-2008, 10:43 AM   #114
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Aikido is certainly an option for people to see a middle way or work as somewhat of a healing process. It seems to work for me.

It isn't the pancea for all people. They have to connect to it in that regard.

Some people will use BJJ, some will use Racquetball, Boxing, Soccer, meditation...counseling, bike riding...whatever it may be that works for them.

It may not necessarily be aikido.
Indeed. But since we're here talking about Aikido I thought I'd mention it.

Thanks,
Jen

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:53 AM   #115
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
If an officer wishes to make his life better in general, to become a better person who is more centered, then Aikido is probably a good path. In order to do that though, he must first survive some of the terrible things which will confront him. Aikido can certainly help in that regard. Aikido is an effective art for police service in most respects and is far better than anything we teach in the academies. It simply isn't enough for most of us and we need at least some exposure to other arts as well. Ground fighting (Gracie BJJ) and some striking art are valuable additions. I think that in the hands of a superb practitioner, a Ledyard, an Ikeda, a Koga, Aikido is enough. For most of us Officer Lunchboxes, we need a little more. Assuming a thirty year career, about the time we get really, really good at Aikido, we leave for the proverbial rocking chair.

All that being said, Aikido is a terrific skill for police agents here in the West and I wish more officers could train regularly in the art. I know for sure that I would have been a far better deputy sheriff had I been able to train in Aikido during my career for many reasons.
I also agree that the kind of balance in training that you are suggesting is probably best.

Thanks,
jen

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Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 07-04-2008, 12:15 PM   #116
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

I, myself, do not define Aikido by what has become "customary" practice and/or by what has customarily have become "kihon waza." Thus, I cannot really adopt the notion that we need to go "outside," etc., because my "inside" is not limited to what in essence is nothing more than the whims of time and history. For me, when I hear folks talking about mixing, inside, outside, etc., well, it hardly makes sense. Aikido cannot separate mind and body, as it cannot free ourselves from our spirit, as it cannot separate striking from throwing, throwing from pinning, entering from tenkan, standing from lying on the ground, etc. This, for me, is what it means to be before a universal. Being a universal is being in truth (at least from a mystical point of view). Inversely, when things can be so artificially separated, one cannot be before a universal, one cannot be of Truth.

On the other note, I agree strongly with Jen's position - Aikido's capacity to cultivate further and further, higher and higher, states of spiritual maturity. As this is vital for every human being, people that by occupation are more prone to face higher and higher degrees of suffering are by necessity open to receiving Aikido's practical benefits.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 07-04-2008, 02:55 PM   #117
Michael Hackett
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

OK David, for us "least common denominators" out here, what did you say in your first paragraph? I've read it five or six times now and still don't understand what you are trying to convey. Maybe I need it in crayon, but I simply don't follow you. Normally your writing has a strong and cogent message worth considering, but this one whizzed over my head.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 07-05-2008, 09:29 AM   #118
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

I am sure it's my fault entirely - sorry, very exhausted as we are battling the #1 forest fire in the state right now. Never ending shifts, as you can imagine. I'll try again after we get a breather. Please forgive. I'm sure it does not make sense - hoping I can do better later.

d

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-05-2008, 10:59 AM   #119
Michael Hackett
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

I know what you're going through. We did that last year in this area and in 2003 just for practice. Hope you get through everything OK and no one gets hurt. We'll keep you in our thoughts.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:08 PM   #120
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Second try...

Up to this point, there is a lot of talk about mixing and matching Aikido, about going outside of Aikido, etc., to make it effective for police work, etc. I was trying to comment on this position. In my experience, when folks talk like this, they usually have come to define Aikido or understand Aikido by little more than kihon waza training and/or by what has become the almost universally custom for training in kihon waza. For me, this is understanding is really a misunderstanding of, first, the kihon waza training process, and, in the end, Aikido.

I do not define Aikido by what has become "customary" practice and/or by what has customarily have become "kihon waza." That training, and that process of training, is about building a base. If it's a base, then something is supposed to go on top of it. The problem is not that Aikido has no top to it, but that folks, by nothing more than a lack of pursuit, have come to mistake the base for the whole of the art.

Thus, I cannot really adopt the notion that we need to go "outside," etc., because my "inside" is not limited to what in essence is nothing more than the whims of time and history (i.e. the mistake of folks over time coming to see the base for the whole). For me, when I hear folks talking about mixing, inside, outside, etc., well, it hardly makes sense - because there's not supposed to be an outside to Aikido.

Aikido cannot be only of the mind or only of the body, only of the spirit. It is all these things simultaneously, interdependently, etc. In the same way, Aikido cannot separate striking from throwing, throwing from pinning, entering from tenkan, standing from lying on the ground, etc. Kihon Waza can, but not Aikido. This, for me, is what it means to be before a universal (no outside, no inside).

Being a universal is being in Truth (at least from a mystical point of view). Inversely, when things can be so artificially separated, one cannot be before a universal, one cannot be of Truth. Like Kihon Waza then, like the base that is so often mistaken for the whole, when one's Aikido is so separate-able, one is looking at an Aikido that is artificial, as artificial as the abstract learning environments that mark basic training.

(Fire 75% contained) :-)
d

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:16 PM   #121
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Second try...

Up to this point, there is a lot of talk about mixing and matching Aikido, about going outside of Aikido, etc., to make it effective for police work, etc. I was trying to comment on this position. In my experience, when folks talk like this, they usually have come to define Aikido or understand Aikido by little more than kihon waza training and/or by what has become the almost universally custom for training in kihon waza. For me, this is understanding is really a misunderstanding of, first, the kihon waza training process, and, in the end, Aikido.

I do not define Aikido by what has become "customary" practice and/or by what has customarily have become "kihon waza." That training, and that process of training, is about building a base. If it's a base, then something is supposed to go on top of it. The problem is not that Aikido has no top to it, but that folks, by nothing more than a lack of pursuit, have come to mistake the base for the whole of the art.

Thus, I cannot really adopt the notion that we need to go "outside," etc., because my "inside" is not limited to what in essence is nothing more than the whims of time and history (i.e. the mistake of folks over time coming to see the base for the whole). For me, when I hear folks talking about mixing, inside, outside, etc., well, it hardly makes sense - because there's not supposed to be an outside to Aikido.

Aikido cannot be only of the mind or only of the body, only of the spirit. It is all these things simultaneously, interdependently, etc. In the same way, Aikido cannot separate striking from throwing, throwing from pinning, entering from tenkan, standing from lying on the ground, etc. Kihon Waza can, but not Aikido. This, for me, is what it means to be before a universal (no outside, no inside).

Being a universal is being in Truth (at least from a mystical point of view). Inversely, when things can be so artificially separated, one cannot be before a universal, one cannot be of Truth. Like Kihon Waza then, like the base that is so often mistaken for the whole, when one's Aikido is so separate-able, one is looking at an Aikido that is artificial, as artificial as the abstract learning environments that mark basic training.

(Fire 75% contained) :-)
d
Good Stuff!

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:00 PM   #122
Michael Hackett
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

David,

First of all, good news on your fire situation!

Thanks for clearing up your earlier post. I understand now what you are saying and even agree - imagine that.

My earlier point was that most cops simply won't train in Aikido to the level needed to be effective on more than a rudimentary level. They will get pretty good at an ikkyo (as long as we call it an arm bar take down) at a kihon level and not much further. Hence I think it valuable for most cops to train/cross train/experience both the striking and groundfighting schools as well. They won't be very good at any of them, but they will have a few tools in the toolbox to perhaps get them home at end of watch. Aikido could certainly be enough if the individual is will to put in the time, sweat and effort to get beyond a brief exposure to kihon waza.

Good luck with the rest of what looks to be a terrible fire season in your area!

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:39 PM   #123
eric_lecaptain
 
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

we had a cop show up to our dojo once. he never came back.
in any case, i was under the impression that most cops learn krav maga instead of aikido...
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:52 PM   #124
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

I don't know about Police, but for the military, aikido simply is not the most efficient or effective use of our time we have to train on the things that are most important to us. That does not mean that there is no value or benefit in aiki training, only that there are only so many hours in the days and you have competing priorities.

When we do have time to spend on empty hand stuff, we are going to spend it in a manner that most effectively makes the best use of that time. I don't believe Aikido to be the methodology that delivers this.

btw, Good post David I like your perspective on Aikido.

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Old 07-11-2008, 05:54 PM   #125
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Aikido effective for police?

btw, in our dojo we have an FBI agents, military members, and police.

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