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Old 01-21-2008, 03:21 PM   #1
"Anonymous"
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What to do ?

Person A has serious reasons, not to be touched by person B, so she's not able, to train with him anymore. Would this be possible in wour dojo, or would she have to train with everybody or leave ?
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:02 PM   #2
SeiserL
 
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Re: What to do ?

You would have permission to train with who you want. If there was a problem I would want to be informed. But, no one, in or out of the dojo, should be allowed to touch you without your expressed permission.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:21 PM   #3
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

I really hope, that my Sensei thinks the same way. I didn't dare to talk to him by now, because I don't want to tell him details. I want to go back to the dojo, but it is not very easy.
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:25 PM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: What to do ?

In most dojo I've been member of, while it is ok to not partner w/ somebody, SOME kind of explanation to the chief instructor would be expected for refusing to partner w/ an individual. However, I would hope that simply saying "I don't feel safe training with that person" followed by "I'd prefer not to go into details:"would suffice.
Note that some instructors however, feeling very responsible for what goes on in their dojo, would ask for more detail to make sure that the individual in question was not also posing a threat to other members besides you, and that is a valid concern for an instructor.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:37 PM   #5
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

I've talked to some friends about what happened, and everybody told me, that this man would be so dangerous for me, that I should stay far, far, far away from him.
He did abuse me sexually (oral) and most of all behaved like a complete disturbed (crazy ? sorry for my english), as if he where not himself and had not even contact to that "other" person and where not responsible for him.
He is my Sempai, I know him for nearly three years now, always trusted him absolutely and I cannot believe, that the short-time-monster is more important than my "old" Sempai. So I want him to explain, what it all was about. So, I THINK he is dangerous for every female person, but I FEEL that this is not true.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:22 PM   #6
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

He is a danger for people and himself, has been banned from the dojo for 6 months (for threatening somebody) and came back recently. But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ? what he did to me, was outside the dojo and I still can't understand it. So I really don't know, if there is danger for me - surely not on the mat.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:35 PM   #7
Angela Dunn
Dojo: Hartlepool/Peterlee/Billingham
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Re: What to do ?

I am going to throw my own thoughts into this arena and say if your not comfortable training with person B then do not. If your Sensei knows the circumstances around what happened and why you do not wish to train with him then he should respect that. I would just have a quick chat with him, after all if he was banned before then I assume he does know the circumstances around it.

I would like to think if this did come up then a solution could be reached. If you really do not want to train with person B then don't.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:45 PM   #8
Laurel Seacord
Dojo: Seishinkan (Ki no Kenkyukai), Tokyo, Japan
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Re: What to do ?

If you cannot tell the chief instructor the reason in detail why you cannot train with this person, I STRONGLY suggest you confide in someone else you can trust in the dojo. If you remain in the dojo with this person, whether you allow him to touch you or not, you run the risk of condoning his actions. By telling someone else you have at least taken some action on your behalf and on behalf of the other women training there.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:49 PM   #9
Fred Little
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
He is a danger for people and himself, has been banned from the dojo for 6 months (for threatening somebody) and came back recently. But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ? what he did to me, was outside the dojo and I still can't understand it. So I really don't know, if there is danger for me - surely not on the mat.
There are never enough facts in anonymous inquiries like this to enable anyone reading to give much in the way of a useful response, and additional facts tend to make the inquiry increasingly less anonymous.

That said, I would observe the following:

Aside from the fact that very few dojo operators are trained psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, or certified social workers.....

Someone asked him to leave and someone let him back in.

Someone has implicitly taken responsibility for him.

You should talk with that someone directly. Information regarding your experience outside the dojo may change that individual's view of the situation. Or it may not.

But observing the way that individual deals with the information you provide and deals with your concerns will go a long way to letting you know whether this dojo is the right place for you.

If you don't feel you can talk with that individual, that tells you something important too.

Good luck,

FL

FL
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:10 PM   #10
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

It's only because I don't want to tell any man details and the dojocho (who IS a psychologist) once mentionend, that in a case of rape there is always the woman 100% responsible (not guilty, but responsible). Although in my case it's not rape, but "only" other form of sexual abuse, I somehow don't want to discuss my mistakes.
I am kind of responsible, of course, but I could never foresee that my Sempai, in whom I trusted so much, would behave that way. He was like he were not himself.
I'm also afraid, that Sensei may ban him again, because I think, Person B is the only person who can undo what happened and change it into something like a nightmare, that I can simply forget.
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:15 PM   #11
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

I have got some technical problems with writing here (need to log in new every time), so maybe two posts, that I have written, may appear in the wrong order (a moderator has to read them first). I wait until they are here.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:12 PM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
He is a danger for people and himself, has been banned from the dojo for 6 months (for threatening somebody) and came back recently. But aikido is for educating people who have problems with violence, isn't it ?
Yes and no. IMO, A dojo is not responsible for rehabilitating people nor is a place to "experiment" with people. As Mr. Little said, most are not run by Psychiatric or Medical Doctors that specialize in this field. Even if you have such an individual, it is not a clinic, nor is it a place for treatment.

It is a place where people should be able to come and train safely without concern for their safety or health. If a member of the dojo poses a risk to anyone, and it is identified, then it must be properly dealt with and mitigated.

Yes, it is a place for sane and stable people to come together to better understand violence. it may even help those with bad temperment, and those that are prone to emotional and physical outburst. However, if they ever are considered to pose a danger to the health and welfare of others, then they should not practice there. There is a clear line between having feelings and issues, and acting on them uncontrollably.

If a professional thinks that aikido is good therapy, then he/she should start his/her own "support/therapy" group that is composed of people that williingly place themselves in that environment as "assistants" to the professional, or as "patients". The environment should be controlled as a clinc or support group.

A normal dojo is not such a place, IMO.

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Old 01-21-2008, 08:23 PM   #13
Joseph Madden
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Re: What to do ?

If this "person B" has a history of violence ie: threatening somebody and "person B" been allowed to return to the dojo....leave the dojo. It's obvious from what you've mentioned that you are frightened of this person and from the evidence gathered from your statements, your instructor is not really interested in dealing with the problem. If your sensei is not the heart and mind of his dojo on this level alone, leave his dojo and seek enlightenment and training elsewhere.
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:21 PM   #14
edshockley
Dojo: Aiklikai of Philadelphia
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Re: What to do ?

In a perfect world, each practitioner would leave worldly thoughts in a little pile just off to the left when they bow upon entering a dojo. They might even, in a perfect world, forget to pick up that little pile of neuroses when they bow to leave the dojo. This is not yet a perfect world and so, as many people have said, we assess our part in the situation and make training choices that preserve our health and honor the sacred training space. Everyone who trains for any length of time will encounter some disagreeable and/or dangerous partner. How we respond to this situation is another key lesson in the way of harmony. Good luck and good judgement.
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Old 01-22-2008, 12:47 AM   #15
Janet Rosen
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Re: What to do ?

If person B's return is based on faulty information (he is "better" and not a threat) then the instructor giving the ok for his return is basing that ok on faulty info.
Frankly, I think as a member of the dojo community it is your responsibility to give the instructor the information he needs.
If you do not feel that much a part of the dojo community then perhaps you would consider whether it would be best for you to train elsewhere - not because person B is there, but because you don't feel enfranchised by the instructor or dojo culture enough to feel as valuable or more valuable than person B.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 01-22-2008, 07:48 AM   #16
SeiserL
 
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
IMO, A dojo is not responsible for rehabilitating people nor is a place to "experiment" with people. As Mr. Little said, most are not run by Psychiatric or Medical Doctors that specialize in this field. Even if you have such an individual, it is not a clinic, nor is it a place for treatment.
As one of those trained in both arts (martial and psychological). training is not treatment. If the individual was asked to leave but is back, and you choose not to train with them, the Sensei will probably already know why.

And, the best way to understand why people do what they do, its a statement of who they are, not who you are. Don't take it personally.

Now get back on the mat and don't let other's problems interrupt or interfere with you training.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:24 PM   #17
Trish Greene
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
It's only because I don't want to tell any man details and the dojocho (who IS a psychologist) once mentionend, that in a case of rape there is always the woman 100% responsible (not guilty, but responsible). Although in my case it's not rape, but "only" other form of sexual abuse, I somehow don't want to discuss my mistakes.
This statement floors me. "in case of rape there is always the woman100% responsible (not guilty but responsible)."

I would urge you not to take the advise of the dojocho on this one. I know, as a woman, we are responsible for making sure we are in a safe environment, but you can't say we are 100% responsible for being raped. That is ludicrous.

"Aikido is nothing but an expression of the spirit of Love for all living things."

Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:30 PM   #18
Janet Rosen
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Re: What to do ?

Your clarifying post didn't show up til after my last reply.
Find another dojo to train at - why would you want to train under a dojocho w/ that kind of attitude?

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:56 PM   #19
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: What to do ?

Trish and Janet hit the nail on the head! What a load of crap. I'm sure your dojo cho has never interviewed a rape victim, in the ER or anywhere else. His logic eludes me; a woman exists, therefore she is responsible for everything that happens to her? Other than that, I can't see the thought progression. Please explain his rationale, if he shared it with you.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-22-2008, 02:15 PM   #20
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do ?

I find this thread very disturbing, and as Fred says, we cannot have enough information to give pertinent advice.

My off the cuff advice is to

a) seek counseling to deal with what you say happened to you

b) seek law enforcement to punish the person who did it

c) Unfortunately, if you have interpreted what the instructor said correctly, seek another dojo!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-22-2008, 02:49 PM   #21
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Re: What to do ?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
It's only because I don't want to tell any man details and the dojocho (who IS a psychologist) once mentionend, that in a case of rape there is always the woman 100% responsible (not guilty, but responsible). .
I hope that in your country not all men think like that If it is a case, change country.

And of course, change a dojo as fast as possible. If a chief instructor thinks like that it is not surprise, that his students behave badly. What a horror!

Nagababa

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Old 01-22-2008, 02:55 PM   #22
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do ?

Mr. S speaks truth...AGAIN!

B,
R

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Old 01-22-2008, 03:44 PM   #23
Marc Abrams
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Re: What to do ?

Like Lynn, I am a licensed psychologist and Aikido instructor. I cannot understand what the psychologist meant by 100% responsible. That sounds like a strange statement for a psychologist to make. Lynn's point that a dojo is not a therapeutic environment is one that all dojos should adhere to.

At my hombu dojo in NYC, we had mentally disturbed people training at our dojo (one called herself Steven Seagal's psychic wife!). A psychiatrist and myself were always talking about how wrong it was to allow actively psychotic people to be training. When I had the "pleasure" of serving as president of that dojo, I allowed one incident to be the basis for instituting the policy of not allowing seriously mentally ill people to be training. It was disruptive to the other students and the potential for the unexpected also kept people on edge.

Ron's advice was sound! If an act of sexual abuse happened, then it should be investigated. The head of the dojo should be made aware and that person should act appropriately by expelling anybody who intentionally abuses another member. The dojo atmosphere requires a great deal of trust in each other. I cannot imagine how that can be fostered in this situation.

If the head of the school does not do the right thing, I believe that you should seek training elsewhere.

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-22-2008, 03:52 PM   #24
ChrisMoses
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Re: What to do ?

Chiming in with the chorus.

It's not only OK for you *not* to train with that person, (for clarity I'll refer to him as Filthy Slimeball) but it is *not* OK for him to train with anyone else at that dojo. No matter what the specific circumstances, he betrayed a very basic level of trust, one frankly far baser than those required to train safely in a dojo with other people. Filthy Slimeball should be banished.

If your instructor knows about this event and hasn't banished them (or beat Filthy Slimeball to a bloody pulp, then banished them) you shouldn't even consider going back. Given their wacky opinion on sexual assault, I'd say pack it up. A dojo is a place to study the way, not a treatment center.



/mad face.

Chris Moses
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Old 01-22-2008, 04:02 PM   #25
"Anonymous"
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Re: What to do ?

I am quite sure, Sensei has no idea, how serious the emotional problems of that man are. I met him several times outside the dojo and would never have believed that. (I mean this strange "being not himself and having a different voice")
The problem with law enforcement is, that it is nearly impossible here that a man gets punished for things like that, if there are no witnesses and if - as in my case- the woman came into his flat voluntarely, it's simply "word against word" and so only 10% of the men, that are accused at a police station, have to go to court. And only another 10 % get a punishment.(I am sure it's the same in America, isn't it ? ).
I really think, I need to talk to Sensei. At the moment I am simply "running away" and worry about how he may react. I should rather try, how he reacts and then run away, if necessary.
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