Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-14-2008, 10:13 PM   #26
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,170
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I have no problem with Aikido as a martial art. But I absolutely believe that most people miss the whole intention of what O-Sensei wanted the art to be and why he changed what he did. Aikido is a practice of personal transformation, it is misogi. Some level of martial capability is the by product of proper training but it is not the point. The point is the transformative aspect of the art.
I respectfully disagree that martial capability is a by product. Martial capability is the first step toward the transformative aspect of Aikido. It shows you yourself, your strengths, your flaws, it is self discovery and you need to test yourself to see if it is real, it is the misogi of Aikido.

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2008, 10:24 PM   #27
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Sure it shows some of your strengths, flaws, and it is a method of self discover.

I would tend to agree with Ledyard Sensei though....it is a by product and not the main emphasis.

if it were the main emphasis (martial capability) the first couple of years of study would look a whole lot different then how we study it.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2008, 10:34 PM   #28
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,170
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
if it were the main emphasis (martial capability) the first couple of years of study would look a whole lot different then how we study it.
How would it be different?

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2008, 10:55 PM   #29
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: real world aikido

If "I" were concerned with making students "martially capable"?

To be honest it'd look alot like what we see going on in the MMA trend to today, but slightly different as most are concerned with sport fighting primarily.

As I am somewhat partial to what we are teaching in the Army, i'd pretty much teach this core curriculum first. Teaching them about fight paradigms, getting them to understand the psychology of fighting, developing the emotional context and mental toughness and develop the willingness required to fight, teaching them how to close distance, seize the initiative, achieve dominance, finally teach them many different methods to finish fights with hands, feet, chokes, blunt objects, knives, guns. I'd put them into various "pressure" scenarios with multiple partners, and alone with multiple enemies. They would also learn the importance of physical conditioning and realize that if they do not have strength and stamina, that they probably will lose. they would mount up in protective gear, such as Blauer suits, and go full force on force.

After a year or so of training like this...i'd say that they have some basic martial capability.

again, this is assuming that well rounded martial capability is of a primary concern.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2008, 11:11 PM   #30
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,170
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
If "I" were concerned with making students "martially capable"?

To be honest it'd look alot like what we see going on in the MMA trend to today, but slightly different as most are concerned with sport fighting primarily.

As I am somewhat partial to what we are teaching in the Army, i'd pretty much teach this core curriculum first. Teaching them about fight paradigms, getting them to understand the psychology of fighting, developing the emotional context and mental toughness and develop the willingness required to fight, teaching them how to close distance, seize the initiative, achieve dominance, finally teach them many different methods to finish fights with hands, feet, chokes, blunt objects, knives, guns. I'd put them into various "pressure" scenarios with multiple partners, and alone with multiple enemies. They would also learn the importance of physical conditioning and realize that if they do not have strength and stamina, that they probably will lose. they would mount up in protective gear, such as Blauer suits, and go full force on force.

After a year or so of training like this...i'd say that they have some basic martial capability.

again, this is assuming that well rounded martial capability is of a primary concern.
Would you teach morales or ethics of the use of what they are learning ?

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 10:39 AM   #31
David McCormack
Dojo: Kuma Aikido
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: real world aikido

@ - George S. Ledyard and Kevin Leavitt, what you are saying is very thought prevoking, and from what u have said i have used aikido in situations outside of my dojo because i have avoided conflicts. thank you for giving me another way of viewing my aikido.

im only 16 and clearly have a lot to learn about life in general (as well as aikido) and its comments like yours that are going to help

many thanx
David
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 12:00 PM   #32
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

[PHP]As Jon Reading states, while it is a part of the martial spectrum, it does not address all aspects of fighting. If this is your goal, then you must bait the hook, put the pole in the water, and then unhook the fish!

Using that analogy, most people that view martial arts as a part of their job are concerned with the baiting the hook...and fishing up until the pull the fish out of the water....that is when the physical fight ends.

Aikido, in this analogy, is concerned at the point the fish is in the boat, how you get it off the hook, and how you deal with it at that point on. It considers the spectrum that happens after the physical, that is the after effects of physical conflict.[/PHP]

Well said.

This was and remains a BIG issue in law enforcement. The reality I encountered catching drugs and aliens in towns where there were many generations of smugglers (perhaps beginning with cattle and horses, guns for Pancho Villa, booze during prohibition and today's contraband), you had to have a strategy for closure.

Sun Tzu said, "always allow an advesary a means of escape".

As the Confucian strategist said, "Never strike a man on an old wound or insult him about a disgrace". At least half of the resistings I encountered after busting someone for contraband, was escalated because they felt their honor was insulted.

I decided to treat the whole thing like a game rather than a moral mission. The smuggler is in business to put food on his table. I was there to stop loads of contraband from entering the country. He was willing to take his chances as long as I did not take his capture or his profession personally. There were agents who did not follow this "way". Their homes were burned to the ground. In one case, an agent turned up dead while off duty.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 12:32 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Lots of good stuff here, Kevin, George and Chris.

One question...how do you rise above fighting if you don't know what it is?

Best,
Ron (speaks to Kevin's point, I believe)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 01:36 PM   #34
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Great Question Ron,

I would certainly like to here your "truth" regarding the question.

For now, here is my "truth".

Burt Reynolds starred in a movie about a bodyguard in Las Vegas. A rich kid hired him, no so much for protection as to learn how to be tough.

Burt Reynolds punched him in the nose and asked how if felt. The kid was enlightened. He survived and could still laugh.

Bruce Lee said, "fighting is insanity". When you walk through the doors of insanity, the only thing that can bring you back is your moral strength."

I suspect allot of folks do not want to walk through the doors with both feet. I suggest that they are stuck only with theoretical morality. Let's go fishing, bait it, hook it and clean it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 01:50 PM   #35
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

I don't have a truth, but my opinion is you probably have to get that experience somewhere, somehow, unless you are a very rare kind of person.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 02:28 PM   #36
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

In my favorite Zen movie "Circle of Iron", the emerging hero "Korb" is infuriated at his teachers seemingly insane activity. He has struck a beautiful child, scarring him for life. He has poked a hole in a boat whose kind owner had just given them passage across a river. He has stopped to rebuild a stone wall while being chased by belligerent horsemen.

Korb receives a small enlightenment when it dawns on him that his teacher knew what he was doing because quote, "you have been here before." He realizes that each seemingly insane act was done to benefit a higher purpose.

The teacher then slaps Korb and says, "How many times?"

In my dojo, I like to take student (seeker) to the edge of the abyss. While it is not all-out fighting, neither was Burt Reynold's poking his charge in the nose.

If they wish to go further, I enjoy using largo Mano with rattan sticks (single or double) and no protective gear. I normally settle on bruising a hand or an arm. I force them to continue to fight and help them past the fear of getting hit again. Another small enlightenment.

Most folks do not need to go criminal satisfy their desire to step through the door of insanity.

There is truth to be found in certain Sport fighting venues. Judo. Sport Jujitsu, Boxing. MMA. Sombo. If a student want to do these things, I like to be there as a coach.

You can take a walk on the wilder side by challenging someone at Dog Brothers. They call it higher consciousness through harder contact. I insist on being there on these occassions. Theorietically, there is control of emotion and retaliation that keeps it safe. But I like to be there just in case the situation goes out of control. Another small enlightenment.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 02:31 PM   #37
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
[PHP]As Jon Reading states, while it is a part of the martial spectrum, it does not address all aspects of fighting. If this is your goal, then you must bait the hook, put the pole in the water, and then unhook the fish!

Using that analogy, most people that view martial arts as a part of their job are concerned with the baiting the hook...and fishing up until the pull the fish out of the water....that is when the physical fight ends.

Aikido, in this analogy, is concerned at the point the fish is in the boat, how you get it off the hook, and how you deal with it at that point on. It considers the spectrum that happens after the physical, that is the after effects of physical conflict.[/PHP]

Well said.

This was and remains a BIG issue in law enforcement. The reality I encountered catching drugs and aliens in towns where there were many generations of smugglers (perhaps beginning with cattle and horses, guns for Pancho Villa, booze during prohibition and today's contraband), you had to have a strategy for closure.

Sun Tzu said, "always allow an advesary a means of escape".

As the Confucian strategist said, "Never strike a man on an old wound or insult him about a disgrace". At least half of the resistings I encountered after busting someone for contraband, was escalated because they felt their honor was insulted.

I decided to treat the whole thing like a game rather than a moral mission. The smuggler is in business to put food on his table. I was there to stop loads of contraband from entering the country. He was willing to take his chances as long as I did not take his capture or his profession personally. There were agents who did not follow this "way". Their homes were burned to the ground. In one case, an agent turned up dead while off duty.
Well said...And thus the endless cycle of death and rebirth goes on.

I often ask myself if the purpose of my Aikido practice is to somehow evolve out of this vicious cycle through physical practice.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 02:58 PM   #38
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Well said...

My study of Aiki is something I do to aid in the constructive confrontation with karma.

As such, my Bujitsu is more about "turning the spear" than it is about machismo or a neurotic reaction to compensation for past trauma. but I am sure that neither of the latter two are completely absent.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 06:23 PM   #39
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Lots of good stuff here, Kevin, George and Chris.

One question...how do you rise above fighting if you don't know what it is?

Best,
Ron (speaks to Kevin's point, I believe)
I think the answer is in the training, IF, and this is a big if, one is training with the right intention. I decided quite a while ago that the Aikido I wanted to do was the absolutely effortless kind of technique which my teacher can do and I've encountered from Angier Sensei, Kuroda Sensei, Endo Sensei, and Ikeda Sensei. As I have begun to understand what is required I have come to the realization that Aikido is essentially about communication with ones partner. It is a dialog on a mental and physical level.

Technique done with "aiki" is virtually effortless. But it requires complete relaxation. If your mind and your body have tension, you are feeling you , not the partner. So the practice requires layer after layer of letting go of ones tension. As one relaxes one starts to become increasingly sensitive. Over time one also convinces the body that it is actually safe to relax, even when there is a conflict. Ultimately, as you really start to stay calm and physically relaxed, you realize that in this state there is no conflict. As you stop trying to force things to happen the way you want them to, you discover that you start to really feel the partner, on both an energetic and physical level. Ultimately it becomes impossible for him to break this connection and consequently, it becomes impossible for him to move separately from you.

Training to do this requires that you stop trying to force things into the shape which you want, to accept what your partner gives you and let that create the technique. It is impossible to do this and and have a "fighting" mind. Aggression, anger, fear, etc all interfere with ones ability to execute technique using "aiki". So as one trains, as one slowly starts to reprogram ones naturals reactions in order to do technique properly, one starts to transform oneself. Slowly you get to the point at which it takes more and more to get you to react with tension. Good training should help you get to this point, the point at which your mind and body start to realize that fighting against what is coming at you is not the best response.

I think is exactly where the lessons that are most valuable for ones daily life derive from. Slowly you get to the point at which nothing causes you to contract, not aggression, not criticism, not pain... You start to be able to act simply based on what you wish to accomplish and not based on a set of condition reflex reactions coming out of all your unresolved issues.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 06:37 PM   #40
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Relaxing is certainly a lifelong study. Yanagi- Drooping Willow.

I have been studying how sequenced joint relaxation causes different leverages to accomplish different effects.

What a wonderful study.

For the last few years, I have also moved away from traditional technique so that my mind is not centered upon any one thing.
(Munenori). What comes out is pretty good Aiki. But some traditionalsits might just call it schlock. Nevertheless, all the good principles remain and the uke falls.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 08:01 PM   #41
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Interesting thread.
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
One question...how do you rise above fighting if you don't know what it is?
I like this comment the most. Imho too many Aikidoka want to rise above fighting, fear and the baser self without any inkling of what those things are. The result is often a very long time of self delusion where the air of "transcendence" quickly evaporates whenever the ego is challenged and easily gives way to the same baser self that was supposed to have been left behind a long time ago.

Quote:
Martial capability is the first step toward the transformative aspect of Aikido. It shows you yourself, your strengths, your flaws, it is self discovery and you need to test yourself to see if it is real, it is the misogi of Aikido.
I agree with this also. There can be no transformation of the ego self into the egoless self without first finding, facing and truly understanding the ego. To do this one must be honest in ones training. It is critical to maintain that honesty throughout as we attempt to progress on a path of self discovery and evolution.

To use Sensei Ledyard's example - I can practice to understand "effortless" technique as part of my approach to training. One mark of my evolution would be the ability to truly and honestly execute effortless technique. However, if I can only execute effortless technique when my partner is assisting me by cooperating (i.e. not using his free will) then have I actually learnt much about truly effortless technique and its governing principles? Am I actually evolving in my understanding of effortless technique or is there some self-delusion happening?

For myself I have found that this situation happens quite easily when there is no objective method of testing one's evolution and understanding so I prefer test whatever little knowledge I think I may have and learn from my experiences so that I can evolve. The result may be that my development, if any may be excruciatingly slow, or almost nonexistent. But it would be true and as a result would not collapse upon the first challenge.

So to me, execution of effective waza (i.e. waza that truly does what it is supposed to physically) is intrinsically linked to my self-evaluation of how well I am evolving in Aikido. Imho the principles that are embodied when one reaches higher levels of understanding to the point where "fighting" is transcended are the same principles that are embodied in the midst of "fighting" and executing waza that works effectively to defend my life or that of another. The only difference is the depth of my understanding of those principles at the start and then later down the road.

Yours
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 01-15-2008 at 08:04 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 09:27 PM   #42
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Metaphores are powerful things. They give us orientation by which we enspace ourselves within the world of relationships.

The great philosopher, Hans Georg Gadamer, has defined a new way of enspacing ourselves. He says in his book "Thruth and Method" that both subject and object are in a relationship -- a dance. Both enteract upon eachother and are transformed and changed by one another.

In past thinking, especially Cartesian (Rene Descartes) thinking, the subject merely acted upon the object.

In the cartesian way of thinking, God gave Adam "dominion" over the earth. Contention naturally occurs and the subject often acts in ways that destroys the earth.

In Gadamer's mind, God made Adam caretaker of the earth in a to and fro relationship (care for it and it feeds you).

This is the Aiki spirit and leads towards peaceful relationships. In time, I think the "I" takes a back seat to the wholistic understanding of all energy.

Gadamer sees the dance as a dance of energy. In this manner, two bodies come together (like in Jogoro Kano's sixth Judo kata) to demonstrate principles of how centrifugal force works, how friction works, how gravity works, how momentum works.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 10:57 PM   #43
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: real world aikido

David Skaggs wrote:

Quote:
Would you teach morales or ethics of the use of what they are learning ?
Good question. My answer is no.

I limited my response to address only physical martial capacity.

Ethics and morals create some interesting issues surrounding martial capacity.

Ethics and morality create a framework upon which we make decisions about when it is appropriate to use martial capacity.

It frames things in terms of a spectrum of appropriateness. That is, when it is appropriate to use what force, tools, etc.

Within the context of aikido, we can take it even further and refine the spectrum to say that all force is bad and disruptive to harmony and peace, and develop a frame work that attempts to teach us in a very skillfull way to use the least possible force to resolve conflict.

From my experiences, it gets very tricky when you start teaching morals and ethics, and when it is appropriate to apply what and when. If you start teaching it as a doctrine or dogma then, IMO, you are doing your students a very dangerous thing that may get them hurt or killed in a physical confrontation.

I think many times we walk that walk in aikido and it is why we have issues many times.

I think what we have to do is show options along the spectrum of conflict. Set examples personally through our own actions. Maybe discuss moral and ethical frameworks from time to time, rules of engagement etc. That is, when we are talking martial capacity.

I think our responsibility lay in teaching sound martial arts principles that give effeciently and effectively give martial capacity if that is the goal.

We can discuss descision making skills, escalation of force, rules of engagement, law, and the things that may impact a decision they make to employ martial capacity. However, it needs to be done in a constructive, factual way, that also brings up moral and ethical dilemmas that may be posed with when making these tough , quick decisions.

If our goal is to teach an art, such as aikido that is aligned to a certain philosophy, ethical alignment, value system....a DO. Then we teach that and make sure those that are studying it understand that this is the primary intent of the teaching...that is to help them understand that philosophy and maybe integrate it into their lives.

I think we are dealing with two separate and distinct things. One considers a WAY OF LIFE, a philosophy and path (DO). The other considers a WAY TO LIVE, employing martial capacity (SU) in order to effectively and efficiently dispatch an adversary.

They do have parallels and overlaps. However the endstates are different enough to affect the way you would train, IMO.

I hope this makes sense...I am thinking about it as I write it out!

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 04:06 AM   #44
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 801
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
...His Aikido was very effective in that it manifested beautifully the kind of Aikido he was trying to put forth.
But the paradox is, what he 'put forth' was based on something that was effective (for him). If we concentrate on the 'what he put forth' (Aikido) and forget where it came from (Jujutsu etc.) then we will never really understand it. The basis of all this (real worldliness) is, we want our Aikido to be effective too, but we have been sold short by excuse-ridden aiki-fluffy philosophy.

Here in NZ, Sir Hillary died. He did lots of good things in his life but no one would have noticed had he not climbed Everest. Indeed, had he not climbed Everest, he may not have even done all those good deeds, instead concentrating on climbing, etc. Whatever he became was based on his achievement, which in turn was based on incredible training and fortitude.

And the last time I looked out of the window, the world seemed real enough to me ...

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 04:13 AM   #45
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: South Korea, Yongin
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 801
United Kingdom
Offline
Movies

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
In my favorite Zen movie "Circle of Iron", the emerging hero "Korb" is infuriated at his teachers seemingly insane activity. He has struck a beautiful child, scarring him for life. He has poked a hole in a boat whose kind owner had just given them passage across a river. He has stopped to rebuild a stone wall while being chased by belligerent horsemen.
I have never really been into martial arts movies. The only one I ever liked was Silent Flute, and it sounds very similar to what you have described. Would yours be a remake, I wonder?

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 07:21 AM   #46
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Movies

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I have never really been into martial arts movies. The only one I ever liked was Silent Flute, and it sounds very similar to what you have described. Would yours be a remake, I wonder?
Silent Flute is just another name for Circle of Iron. Same movie, no remake.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 08:08 AM   #47
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

[PHP]Would you teach morales or ethics of the use of what they are learning ?

Good question. My answer is no.

I limited my response to address only physical martial capacity.

Ethics and morals create some interesting issues surrounding martial capacity.

Ethics and morality create a framework upon which we make decisions about when it is appropriate to use martial capacity.

It frames things in terms of a spectrum of appropriateness. That is, when it is appropriate to use what force, tools, etc.

Within the context of aikido, we can take it even further and refine the spectrum to say that all force is bad and disruptive to harmony and peace, and develop a frame work that attempts to teach us in a very skillfull way to use the least possible force to resolve conflict.

From my experiences, it gets very tricky when you start teaching morals and ethics, and when it is appropriate to apply what and when. If you start teaching it as a doctrine or dogma then, IMO, you are doing your students a very dangerous thing that may get them hurt or killed in a physical confrontation.

I think many times we walk that walk in aikido and it is why we have issues many times.

I think what we have to do is show options along the spectrum of conflict.[/PHP]

I was never in the military. In the Spring of 2004, I (at age 51) found myself manning the tail gun of the last vehicle of a personal security detail (PSD) team about 1/4 before we entered the Green Zone in Baghdad.

A Mercedes Benz began to get rather close. He did not respond to my hand signs or the empty bottles I threw out of the rear window to get his attention. Still, I did not shoot. It just did not feel right. His body language seemed more like someone who was offended at how intrusive we had been rather than someone who was going to kill himself and us with a car bomb.

A young fellow (about 24) inside my vehicle who had just left the Marine Corps tried to ostracize me from the detail during the debrief. Therein lies the rub. Experience versus exuberance. I sensed that this Iraqi probably had business in the Green Zone. For all I knew, he was going to meet with the Corp of Engineers. Per5haps, looking at the car he was driving, he was an important Sheik.

He is lucky to be alive today. I kept my Karma intact. Perhaps the State Department benefited in the long run a little bit.

Last week, I saw the movie, "No Country for Old Men". Old men spend allot of time engaging in philosophy to find closure (clean the fish) to things they did in their youth.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 11:57 AM   #48
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Ahhh yes. The exuberance of youth combined with ignorance reminds me of one of my favorite lines from Philip Caputo's Book "A Rumor of War." My memory's fuzzy but he was the Platoon Leader on an OP when he saw his privates do some very nasty things and after he expressed his shock to his Gunny.. the Gunny said something to the effect of "Sir, One of the most dangerous and horrible things in this world is your average 19 year American Boy." (Those who are better read than I can feel free to correct me )

I am glad I survived my "life experiance" and I pray those in harms way survive thier "life experiances"

Please don't take this the wrong way folks as don't mean this to be snobbish or rude but Aikido is one of the few Modern Martial Ways I can keep from being turned into a Monster.

It was this mindset that kept me from jaunting off to War as a PSD dispite many opportunities from old Ranger Buddies to do so.

Sadly over the course of the last few years I have lost many old Ranger Buddies because of my Aikido inspired point of view.

WIlliam Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 03:48 PM   #49
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Quote:
Sadly over the course of the last few years I have lost many old Ranger Buddies because of my Aikido inspired point of view.
I feel you pain. Little room for warrior monks on the battlefield.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2008, 05:16 PM   #50
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: real world aikido

Rupert wrote:

Quote:
But the paradox is, what he 'put forth' was based on something that was effective (for him). If we concentrate on the 'what he put forth' (Aikido) and forget where it came from (Jujutsu etc.) then we will never really understand it. The basis of all this (real worldliness) is, we want our Aikido to be effective too, but we have been sold short by excuse-ridden aiki-fluffy philosophy.
The real challenge here is to define "effective". The more I learn, read, and experience, the more my definition changes.

effective is an interesting word and concept. We all have a vision in our minds of what effective is and isn't. We all believe that whatever that vision is, it is the right one, the same one as everyone elses. All also believe that a some level they understand what O'sensei meant by it as well.

The more I study the psychology of non-violence/violence and peace...the more I begin to see how complex the issue and problem is...yet how simple the solutions really are! Yet, how hard they are to implement!

I am now just starting to understand a little bit, just a little bit about that there is much more in this area than I know. I have learned enough to know now, that what I thought I knew 10 years ago, was rudimentary, compared to the possibiliites, potentials and options that are out there!

I have learned enough, I think to realize that what can be considered effective, can be very different in many different ways!

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you could buy just ONE book about Aikido techniques, what would it be? Karol Kowalczyk Techniques 45 02-01-2014 12:35 AM
Mixing Aikido with other martial arts Guilty Spark General 146 05-04-2008 11:10 AM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 05:52 AM
Omoto-kyo Theology senshincenter Spiritual 77 12-04-2005 10:50 PM
Aikido in the International World Games L. Camejo General 4 08-12-2004 10:13 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:51 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate