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Old 01-08-2008, 01:59 AM   #1
xuzen
 
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Do You Block?

Goju-ryu karatedo clip

Look at 1' 38" to 1' 58" of the clip. Look at how the karate sensei blocks the punches.

Do you block like this in your aikido practice?

I have seen my aikido teacher blocks as such. I have seen even Kancho Shioda blocks like this against tanto yokomen-uchi attacks in his videos.

Do you think it is good to develop this skill in your aikido practice. If not, why not?

Thanks for your opinion.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:39 AM   #2
happysod
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Re: Do You Block?

Not on a first date... We had a very large ex-goju guy in the dojo for about a year, fun to practice with and hard to hurt who did use the same blocks. Effective, but never too sure whether to incorporate them or not.

Yes, a decent block is better than the more standard "block with body/face" that seems to creep in because people think their body movement is sufficient and neglect basic defense. However, blocks have a tendency to make things quite static and remove any of the flow to ride on - unless they're done as well as that instructor managed which was more of a deflect than what I'd normally see as a block.

So, possibly just a terminology thing, but I prefer deflect, blend or lead to block - but anything that protects my exquisitely chisled features is not to be sneezed at.
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:38 AM   #3
SeiserL
 
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Re: Do You Block?

No, or at least I try not to.
IMHO in Aikido it is better to "blend" with rather than "block" against.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:14 AM   #4
Marc Abrams
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Re: Do You Block?

Ushiro Sensei teaches an Okinawan style of bujutsu. Sanchin kata is one of the five katas taught. His "blocks" are more akin to the perfect blending that we try and achieve in Aikido. I frankly find his "zero power" execution far more devastating that what I observed on the that video clip. His teaching have certainly propelled my Aikido and budo to better levels.

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:57 AM   #5
Jonathan
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Re: Do You Block?

I practice both soft deflections and more direct, penetrating blocks. Each of them have their uses. I only do the more direct "attacking the attack" type blocking with a few students who don't mind the pain involved in being blocked this way. Generally, I teach my students to deflect rather than completely halt a strike.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:36 AM   #6
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Do You Block?

I think that the type of block done against yokomen uchi is done with different timing than the one in the video. When I do that block, I enter to catch the uke early and unbalance him. In the video, it appeared to me that the technique was dead as soon as the strike hit the block.
I have also done other blocks that move uke, making a space for me to enter. Blocks can also be done after a strike has been avoided to prevent uke from recoiling or moving in a certain direction.
Blocks in Aikido are to me, not purely defensive, but are done dynamically with correct timing to affect the position, balance, and flow of energy of the attacker. Depending on how one wants to execute a technique, I find that these blocks may or may not be necessary; as I mentioned before, they are not done for defensive purposes. If one has good tai sabaki then the attack can be avoided without any contact at all.

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Old 01-08-2008, 01:02 PM   #7
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Do You Block?

The block is a good block, but does not look aiki to me. I can do the same with almost zero effort. Unimpressed.

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Old 01-08-2008, 01:09 PM   #8
aikidoc
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Re: Do You Block?

To block means to stop to me. No aiki.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:55 PM   #9
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Do You Block?

Boon and I come from the yoshinkan tradition, where the word used is yoke, as in ayate yoke (cross hand block), and yoke comes from yokeru, to avoid.

So no, I would not interpret what I've been taught about blocking to mean stopping, and yes, I would consider what I've been taught to be VERY aiki.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:58 PM   #10
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Re: Do You Block?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Goju-ryu karatedo clip

Look at 1' 38" to 1' 58" of the clip. Look at how the karate sensei blocks the punches.

Do you block like this in your aikido practice?

I have seen my aikido teacher blocks as such. I have seen even Kancho Shioda blocks like this against tanto yokomen-uchi attacks in his videos.

Do you think it is good to develop this skill in your aikido practice. If not, why not?

Thanks for your opinion.

Boon.
It's better than the alternative of getting hit. But IMHO bone on bone blocking should be a last resort. Better to parry, beter still to move off line (AKA get out of the way)
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:28 PM   #11
ChS_23
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Re: Do You Block?

blade against blade
bone against bone
both is crap.

It's only right if you like bruises...
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:54 PM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Do You Block?

No. I think it teaches wrong proprioception. I trained like this for years and I am still working hard to overcome those bad reflexes.

On a different note, I see alot of things that they are doing well, but also alot that I used to do that I don't agree with anymore.

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Old 01-08-2008, 11:45 PM   #13
xuzen
 
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Re: Do You Block?

Quote:
IanHurst wrote:
Yes, a decent block is better than the more standard "block with body/face" that seems to creep in because people think their body movement is sufficient and neglect basic defense. However, blocks have a tendency to make things quite static and remove any of the flow to ride on - unless they're done as well as that instructor managed which was more of a deflect than what I'd normally see as a block.
Blending may look nice and aiki' esque.... but sometimes, a block is more simple and direct and less energy spend vis-a-vis blending/tenkan. If you notice carefully, the Karate-do sensei did not just block as in dead-block, he actually parry/deflect.

Quote:
RupertA wrote:
The block is a good block, but does not look aiki to me. I can do the same with almost zero effort. Unimpressed.
Can you please elaborate on the zero-effort comment? Thanks.

Quote:
RonT wrote:
Boon and I come from the yoshinkan tradition, where the word used is yoke, as in ayate yoke (cross hand block), and yoke comes from yokeru, to avoid.

So no, I would not interpret what I've been taught about blocking to mean stopping, and yes, I would consider what I've been taught to be VERY aiki.
Ron, when I saw that block, and seen my aikido teacher did it... I thought it was because my aikido teacher was an ex-shotokan man. But I also recall, Kancho Shioda did the same thing against uke, that is where it pick my curiosity. Come-on, any other major aikido school does that? Shodokan? Aikikai? Yoseikan?

Quote:
ChrisS wrote:
It's only right if you like bruises...
You know, bruises in my aikido school is seen with a sense of pride. We love to compare and show off whose yonkajo bruise is bigger after class.

Quote:
KevinL wrote:
On a different note, I see alot of things that they are doing well, but also alot that I used to do that I don't agree with anymore.
snicker, chuckle.... more mature and wiser? <Run and Hides under the sofa>

Boon

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Old 01-09-2008, 01:29 AM   #14
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Do You Block?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Blending may look nice and aiki' esque.... but sometimes, a block is more simple and direct and less energy spend vis-a-vis blending/tenkan. If you notice carefully, the Karate-do sensei did not just block as in dead-block, he actually parry/deflect.
Yes, he did. But still ...

Quote:
Can you please elaborate on the zero-effort comment? Thanks.
In person, I could teach it to you in 30 secs. It is impossible to explain ...
But let's try: Basically, your arm is totally relaxed - but almost in position - and when the strike approaches you energise your arm by extending it slightly and hit the strike. It should look like a block, but it is infact a hit. If you do it direct, then it is a hit/block - and takes no efort at all. The harder he hits you the more it hurts him - as long as your timing is perfect. If you do it within circular Aikido movement then, it is still a kind of hit (but less of a block because you moved). This is not what they do in Karate.

Oh, and this hit/block is forward - like in Aikido, not sideways - like in Karate.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 01-09-2008 at 01:42 AM.

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Old 01-09-2008, 06:55 AM   #15
Amir Krause
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Re: Do You Block?

I prefer not to block, assuming the term "block" is defined as absorbing the power of a strike by me arms, without movement. Blocking is the last resort, in the sense it is an inferior response, but, in some cases, blocking saves one from absorbing with face\head body ...

I do not know the Sensei in the video, but in his blocks, I seemed to feel something more then a mere block. Note the loss of balance on the part of the person being blocked, and the "minor" rotating and deflection being done with the block.
In a sense, this opens the topic of the difference between "blocks", " deflections" and "attacking the attack early on", each has a role.

I must admit I did not get the same feeling from the punches at the end. but watching without sound, I was not sure at all about that section and its connotation

Amir.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:56 AM   #16
charyuop
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Re: Do You Block?

Everytime I block Sensei I ended up on my knees because he does a counter technique to me. He repeats to me that a block gives him something to work on and that is wrong. He showed me a couple of weeks ago that if I want to block I need to concentrate on Uke center so that the block turns into an actual attack towards Uke.
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:35 AM   #17
aikispike
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Re: Do You Block?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Oh, and this hit/block is forward - like in Aikido, not sideways - like in Karate.
The block that Rubert described is similar (I think) to what I do and what we did in the senshusei course. It took a lot of time and many bruises to be able to do it so that it doesn't hurt me any more. (I would be impressed if Rupert can really teach someone to do it in 30 seconds.)

The block is complete "aiki" because you are taking uke's balance and redirecting his striking power to the outside. I do it forward and to the side or just to the side - it doesn't matter much.

From what I can tell the instructor in the video is doing the same movement - he is moving into the strike, turning his wrist/forearm out at the point of the strike, and taking ukes power.

Spike

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Old 01-09-2008, 12:44 PM   #18
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Do You Block?

I'm not kidding - 30 secs is possible for most people as it is totally natural. All they have to do is see/feel it.

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Old 01-09-2008, 01:38 PM   #19
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Re: Do You Block?

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
[A]ny other major aikido school does that?
Daito-Ryu does similar things, along with a few other "block-like" maneuvers.

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
[T]his hit/block is forward - like in Aikido, not sideways - like in Karate.
Huh? When I studied Shotokan, I was always taught the "better" way to block was to direct the block forward. Actually, the more "advanced" way to block was to block/parry with the setup move, and then use the "block-proper" as a strike.

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Old 01-09-2008, 05:52 PM   #20
eyrie
 
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Re: Do You Block?

I didn't think there was such a thing as "blocking" in karate. What is commonly referred to as a "block" in karate is usually referred to (in Japanese) as "uke" - i.e. to receive.

Ignatius
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Old 01-09-2008, 07:39 PM   #21
asiawide
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Re: Do You Block?

The karate teacher doesn't just block. If you see the clip carefully, you can see that the teacher is rotating his forearm and hit the attacker's forearm slightly at the impact timing. It's not only parrying but also blocking. Then the attacker feel very acute pain. The more powerful attack, the more pain.

Maybe 30secs. is too short... but 1min is enough to catch this idea once you see it. 30 secs. is just for 'Catching' the idea. Of course, you have to spend some time to apply it in real situation. The karate teacher is applying the idea in karate block. In aikido, this kind of technique can be applied to irimi and even in tenkan. But, I bet many teachers will never like it.

ps. I learned it from Rupert many years ago(1999 or 2000??). he he.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:10 AM   #22
Joe Bowen
 
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Re: Do You Block?

I have trained with Rupert in the past and distinctly remember the class where he taught us the particular block/parry/extension whatever. I don't know if it was thirty seconds, as I don't generally run my stop watch during classes, but it did not take long to pick up what he was showing us.

I trained with Rupert over the past 10 or so years while we were both living in Korea, and if we were not separated no by more than 2/3rds of the world, I'd still be training with him when I could. He is an outstanding teacher and one of the major influences on my aikido. So if you happen to live in New Zealand, take the time to seek him out....

Regards,
Joe
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:38 PM   #23
Will Prusner
 
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Smile Re: Do You Block?

Quote:
Joseph Bowen wrote: View Post
if we were not separated no by more than 2/3rds of the world, I'd still be training with him when I could.
Regards,
Joe
Remember: 2/3rds of the world away is only 1/3rd of the world away if you go in the other direction!

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-11-2008, 02:16 AM   #24
Joe Bowen
 
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Re: Do You Block?

I was wondering if anyone was going to catch that one...You're very clever....
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Old 01-11-2008, 03:27 PM   #25
Tom Fish
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Re: Do You Block?

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
Remember: 2/3rds of the world away is only 1/3rd of the world away if you go in the other direction!
Best laugh of the day. Thanks
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