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Old 01-02-2008, 10:54 AM   #51
mathewjgano
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
In my humble opinion, aikido is meant for dealing with people that we don't want to hurt. It's great for dealing with Grandpa when he's off his meds and gets violent. It's great for dealing with Uncle Larry when he's drunk. It's great for dealing with a sixteen year old kid who hasn't seen enough injury and death to know how stupid his actions are. With enough practice, aikido gets both parties home alive without injury.

In my albeit limited experience, aikido sensei ask us not to do everything we've been doing all our lives. I knew how to slap the dogs**t out of somebody long before my first tae kwon do class, but I had to work really hard for a long time to learn how to enter without fear.
Well said. While I understand the idea of learning how to impose control on people by learning proper striking form or how to deal with a tight-muscled attacker (ie-compared with the often ultra relaxed attacks we often see in Aikido), my experience is that it's not so hard to knock the dogs**t out of someone (I haven't heard it said that way in quite some time; ah to reminisce!). The difficulty comes with trying to out-coordinate your attacker...if that makes sense.
In my mind, the different martial arts aren't tools for fighting (ie- resolving a conflict with a desired result) as much as they are tools for learning how to fight and in that sense, having a good teacher is more important than having the right tool (being that these particular tools share many of the same properties and uses). To get a little pedantic, comparing different arts isn't like simply comparing hammers and screwdrivers, unless you're talking about prying something apart (ie-flathead vs the claw end of a hammer). Both can do it, but knowing how to use your own particular tool of choice is far more crucial than having the "right" tool. In the same sense, we're all just learning how to use the same form (ie-body and mind) with precision and potency. Having the right guide is what's important...and the quality of that will vary in every art and is relative to each individual student's learning style. One teacher can be perfect for one student but not another; same thing goes for the form/art itself.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-02-2008, 03:01 PM   #52
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Unhappy Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Jorce:

Yes i am dependant on an art, and an art alone to teach me because i have no martial arts knowledge at all besides Aikido. I bought "the goods to the fight" with aikido. Dedicated attended lessons three times a week. And was told i was the fastest learner they had had in years so i disagree that i will fail at another art. Because i tried hard with Aikido. It's just not for me, for real world self defence i don't feel comfortable with it. And as im seeing from a few private messages, others seriously dont as well. I think im just the fool who's come out and said it.

William:

Yeah sure i should train everyday if im serious about self defence. But three times a week is better than no training at all right? And obviously there are basic punching and kicking drills that can be done at home with equipment. I'm never going to be super human and i could get knocked out tommorow. But what im trying to say to people is, i'd feel comfortable standing in front of someone who about to violently attack me / or who IS violently attacking me with 2 years Kickboxing, Taw Kwondo, Boxing, Krav, then i would Aikido...Aikido as I known it. Please, i am not trying to offend people. I haven't even told this to my own dojo i feel so bad. I'm just airing serious points i feel get swept under the carpet sometimes. People are learning Aikido to defend themselves with on the streets remember...that's why i took it up. But it seems more bogged down with other stuff i can't quite put my finger on, than straight self defence.

Micheal:

Very interesting read thanks.

"I suspect there's alot of opportunity to apply aikido from your initial reaction, it's just that your initial reaction is likely to be so different from what you feel it should be (based on what is done in the dojo) that you figure Aikido hasn't "stuck". But what if we're only talking about one split second being the problem. What if you can flinch, cover up, and then start to lead, blend, throw, control. It's a possiblity."

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I agree with you. All i'm saying is, surely at this point i should already feel to blend and control? If people said to me "well aikido taught me to do this in 3-6 months fine" then i would think it was me. But not one person has said Aikido has taught them how to defend themselves in a real fight, in a short space of time. Because IMO its not likely it can in a short amount of time.

Jorge:

See with respect, this to me is crazy...

"He said that O Sensei didn't create Aikido for ordinary people originally. He said that Aikido isn't an art that people coming off the street can walk in and understand. He said that a budo master can understand this art immediately but an ordinary person will have to study for many years before he can even begin to understand it."

If someone would have said this to me as i first walked into the Dojo i would have been back out before the door had closed behind me. I'm not a budo master. You posted the above like it's something to be proud of. For people into japanese culture, philosophy etc etc then that's fine. But for an "ordinary person" the above is madness to me. As for getting another job, that's just plain rude. I can handle people without aikido, you dont need to be a martial artist to be a doorman. But if you have a good martial art behind you, it increases your safety. Which is what im looking to do.

"I also think that you lack a basic understanding of what most martial arts are all about."

With respect i dont care for what most martial arts are about. What i care for is being able to physically defend myself when someone very violent is coming for me. Not the philosophy behind martial arts, the honour, all this is hippy stuff. If this makes me less honourable, or whatever else then so be it. The more i read, the more i see i did enter into Aikdo with the wrong mindset. As most people are saying "its about you not the art" or "only the wise understand the aikido path" and all of this...don't you feel embaressed saying this? Its people like yourself Jorge, and i dont mean this disrespectfully. But it's that kind of attitude toward everyday guys like myself looking to learn a bit of self defence that gives Aikido a real bad name amongst most people outside of the art.

Micheal:

Perhaps Krav wont be for me, but thats fine if so then i move on and find an art that will serve me better. Aikido is not my religion, or my "way of life" it is, always has been something im learning to defend myself with. And that only. But personally i dont think you're correct. I feel it's as simple as the Aikido not being for me. I put a lot of time and effort into every part of my Aikido training. If i was alacklusture student i would agree with you, but i wasn't.

Gianluigi:

I'm guessing you didnt read my post or my reasons for Krav Maga and just picked up on this discussion half way through. I wouldnt watch one video and then decide to dedicate my life to a martial art. Im a 28 yr old man with a daughter. Former office manager. Not a kid looking for cool martial arts to do. I dont even watch martial art movies. lol. But thanks anyway.

Jeff:

Good point, i suppose because ive studyed what ive thought of as Aikido for so long, and i dont feel very comfrotable with it. It's put me off the whole Aikido thing altogether. If i came on here and most people were saying no no, your school sounds way off, then fine. But to be honest most responses seem to be skirting around the fact that for the most part, what i'm saying about Aikido is correct. I also think, and i havent mentioned this, im looking for something a bit more real world. With the bowing to pictures, Bokken and Jo walking and waving. I posted about this before actually. And Japanese terminoligy. Extending Ki power through our fingers at the end of the lesson and then clenching our buttocks to keep the KI power in......um.....i just want to defend myself against thugs.

James:
"In my humble opinion, aikido is meant for dealing with people that we don't want to hurt. It's great for dealing with Grandpa when he's off his meds and gets violent. It's great for dealing with Uncle Larry when he's drunk. It's great for dealing with a sixteen year old kid who hasn't seen enough injury and death to know how stupid his actions are."

This is what i thought, i thought the exact same thing. I dont want to be a champion UFC fighter. King kickboxer. I just want to deal with people effectively and safely. Which is what i thought Aikido would teach me. And three nights a week, on the mat i dealt with people effectively and safely. But as soon as real life stepped in, five nights a week. I saw that my Aikido just didnt work or wasn't even needed. Its hard to explain, but in the fast paced light of confrontation its just so so different.

It's also at this point that i want to say my club (there are four in Luton BTW) teaches aikido in no way different to any other Aikido i have seen all over the internet and the 100's of videos from every different school around the world. I think the main bulk of my problem is just as simple as the art itself.

I couldnt imagine going to a kick boxing forum and reading many posts saying "would kickboxing work in a fight" but it's all over Aikido forums and other martial art forums, saying the same thing about aikido. Aikido is unique in its own insecurity as to if it would actuallly work in a real situation. There is a reason for that, and i suspect its because for the person who hasn't studies aikido for a very long time..it probably wouldnt work.

The teachers at my club knew my concerns and one in particular went to great lengths to help me. He is the one i mentioned before. He actually incorporated throat strikes, and headlocks into his aikido and always stressed atemi. This is why i admired his style it seemed effective. But even he said to me when i asked. It will take you a years before you even grasp Aikido, compared to other striking arts, simply because it is so different to everything else.

In short, with open and for the first time truly un-biased eyes i see why quite a few martial arts soley critisize aikido. Its even critisised on Wikipedia which doesnt happen to martial arts on there. People said these things to me a few months in and i see why. It seems to me Aikido is an effective martial art for those who have stuck at it for over 5 years solid. To me now, that kind of time frame is too much if you're looking to use it to defend yourself on the street. Everytime i hear talk of techniques never ever really being learnt, or "O Sensei never taught a single technique" and when i hear 10 yr aikido black belts say "i still feel im a beginner at aikido and always will" and all that talk...it makes me put my hands in my head and weep tears.

Maybe deep down inside im an A-Hole who wants to deal with quickly and painfully people who run at me with bottles, throw punches at me, and try to headbutt me, or glass me. I dont think i am but maybe i am, and maybe that's why im looking for something a bit more real

...life is a journey and leaving one art for the next is simply a stop on that journey...wow that almost sounded "aikido"

(joke)

Now i need a drink.
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Old 01-02-2008, 03:09 PM   #53
Will Prusner
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
...comparing different arts isn't like simply comparing hammers and screwdrivers, unless you're talking about prying something apart (ie-flathead vs the claw end of a hammer). Both can do it, but knowing how to use your own particular tool of choice is far more crucial than having the "right" tool.
yes, point taken and agreed. I admit I didn't think the analogy through to this level. I was speaking more from a place of feeling more well-rounded, having a basic working knowledge of the movements and philosophy of the art, for instance I would feel like my "toolbox" was more complete having both a screwdriver (phillips and flathead) and a hammer (claw, ballpeen, and a rubber mallet) . Options are good.

Thanks for making the distinction.

oh, and to the OP, never consider any pursuit of knowledge or technique a waste of time, take what you learned and apply what you can. You may choose not to continue your study of Aikido, but, I'm sure there are at least a couple techniques, principles, ideas you can incorporate and expand upon that have made your study worthwhile in some capacity... maybe they will prove to be more useful in unforeseen situations and personal encounters than they will at the barroom door.

Last edited by Will Prusner : 01-02-2008 at 03:19 PM.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-02-2008, 03:24 PM   #54
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
You may choose not to continue your study of Aikido, but, I'm sure there are at least a couple techniques, principles, ideas you can incorporate and expand upon that have made your study worthwhile in some capacity... maybe they will prove to be more useful in unforeseen situations and personal encounters than they will at the barroom door.
There must be, i think it would be impossible for me not to take something from the time ive spent. And maybe that's what it's all about. We'll see.
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Old 01-02-2008, 05:15 PM   #55
Aiki Teacher
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

To all of the aikidoka who are posting in response to this string. When someone claims they are leaving Aikido, why do we feel that we have to talk them out of leaving? The poster has already made clear this is not for him. He clearly has not been in the art long enough to appreciate this art. He has also said it is not for him. Let go. He will continue to make blanket responses about the value or lack of value of aikido. We could all pull up situations where aikido has worked for us, but he would still criticize this experience. Why waste the time and the typing trying to convince someone who is not interested.

We could all come up with stories where one martial art or another has failed in one instant or another. There is no one best art!
The person must find the art that fits him and his personality.

I have been watching the Discovery Channel's show, The Human Weapon. The two travelers on the show are people who come from a mixed martial arts background. One is actually a champion. Yet every week they get beaten by people in traditional martial arts.
Does that mean that mma is invalid? No, It just means that each art has its own value. But, it is interesting, that the people in the traditional arts who take the time and years to study the art continually defeat the two men on the show?

So as the saying goes. "Don't leave angry, just leave." and if you're leaving, then go and don't continue to hang around when obviously your not interested. Go to a Krav Maga website and post for them.
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Old 01-02-2008, 05:18 PM   #56
Aiki Teacher
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

To all of the aikidoka who are posting in response to this string. When someone claims they are leaving Aikido, why do we feel that we have to talk them out of leaving? The poster has already made clear this is not for him. He clearly has not been in the art long enough to appreciate this art. He has also said it is not for him. Let go. He will continue to make blanket responses about the value or lack of value of aikido. We could all pull up situations where aikido has worked for us, but he would still criticize this experience. Why waste the time and the typing trying to convince someone who is not interested.

We could all come up with stories where one martial art or another has failed in one instant or another. There is no one best art!
The person must find the art that fits him and his personality.

I have been watching the Discovery Channel's show, The Human Weapon. The two travelers on the show are people who come from a mixed martial arts background. One is actually a champion. Yet every week they get beaten by people in traditional martial arts.
Does that mean that mma is invalid? No, It just means that each art has its own value. But, it is interesting, that the people in the traditional arts who take the time and years to study the art continually defeat the two men on the show?

So as the saying goes. "Don't leave angry, just leave." and if you're leaving, then go and don't continue to hang around when obviously your not interested. Go to a Krav Maga website and post for them.

I wish you were more interested in learning the art. But it does take longer to learn. If that is not your thing, fine. But please stay off the sour grapes routine
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:17 PM   #57
Roman Kremianski
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
The two travelers on the show are people who come from a mixed martial arts background. One is actually a champion. Yet every week they get beaten by people in traditional martial arts.
1) Only Jason Chambers comes from an MMA background, while Bill Duff comes from an NFL background


2) The hosts do not get "beaten " by the martial artists they meet, but merely spar with them under the rules of the art they are featuring.

I think one of the reasons the OP left Aikido is the lack of interest and involvement Aikidoka show in other styles.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 01-02-2008 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:43 PM   #58
Mattias Bengtsson
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

When I started training Aikido I was immediatley told, that I shouldnt expect to become this great martial artist able to kick ass and chew bubblegum from Aikido. That the best self defense art is to run fast, and that that the best way to avoid injury in a street fight was not go get mixed up in it at all.

I replied that I was fine with this.. if it was my intention to learn how to "beat people up" I would have picked up Krav Maga instead (just like the OP, funnily enough)

So I understand what OP is talking about, and I respect his reasons for leaving.

I dont study Aikido to beat people up myself. I study it to defend myself.
And there is a difference.

Uke Iacta Est
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Old 01-02-2008, 09:03 PM   #59
Roman Kremianski
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

I think it's plainly obvious the best martial art on teh street is Olympic Sprinting.
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:25 PM   #60
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Running can be a good option. One I would highly recommend as a defensive tactic for most.

Many though have jobs or we are put in situations where running is not the thing we must do.

Bouncers for instance are hired to keep the peace in a bar and remove those that are not complying with the rules.

Good bouncers are those that can recognize trouble long before it starts and can influence the situation before it escalate into physical action. That is not to say that a bad bouncer is one that has situations that get physical! Some times it happens!

So, a bouncer must have a wide range of skills from verbal and non-verbal communication skills, to skills that allow him/her to remove someone from the bar physically with minmal damage.

They must also be able to protect themselves when things get really bad and there may be multiple people involved.

They must also know when to grab the "big stick" from behind the bar, and when to call in the calvary to!

Anyway, the point is, running is not always the right option.

If you see a couple of guys beating up a little ole lady, do you just run away, or watch, or do you take action? How much force is permissible to use?

Do you pull out your concealed gun, point it at them and tell them to lay off or you will shoot? Do you fire a round in the air to get their attention? What do you do?

It can get complicated very quickly.

Thankfully most of us never need to use what we learn or are put in those situations!

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Old 01-02-2008, 11:13 PM   #61
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Mattias Bengtsson wrote: View Post
I dont study Aikido to beat people up myself. I study it to defend myself.
And there is a difference.
Thats why i studied Aikido as well. But i found in real life situations it doesn't work. As ive said numerous times i dont want to beat people up. Just defend myself well. If you think you can throw any kind of lock or hold on someone throwing a real punch at real speed you're kidding yourself like i was. Just you tube boxing or punching if you haven't had real life altercations. And you will see what i mean. Punches come as hard snaps, not someone in a line, running toward you fist extended. Aikido is fooling a lot of people i feel.

As for those saying if im not happy with Aikido go, and stop posting. With respect, no. Theres people on here who no longer study Aikido but still post. If the thread makes uncomfrotable reading for you, then dont read it. Simple. I am being respectful and taking in other peoples views. Until i fully get into Krav or another art i will continue to read peoples responses and opinions because i find what everybody is sayng interesting.

Thanks
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Old 01-02-2008, 11:19 PM   #62
Daniel Ranger-Holt
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Good bouncers are those that can recognize trouble long before it starts and can influence the situation before it escalate into physical action. That is not to say that a bad bouncer is one that has situations that get physical! Some times it happens!

So, a bouncer must have a wide range of skills from verbal and non-verbal communication skills, to skills that allow him/her to remove someone from the bar physically with minmal damage.

They must also be able to protect themselves when things get really bad and there may be multiple people involved.

They must also know when to grab the "big stick" from behind the bar, and when to call in the calvary to!

Anyway, the point is, running is not always the right option.

If you see a couple of guys beating up a little ole lady, do you just run away, or watch, or do you take action? How much force is permissible to use?

Do you pull out your concealed gun, point it at them and tell them to lay off or you will shoot? Do you fire a round in the air to get their attention? What do you do?

It can get complicated very quickly.

Thankfully most of us never need to use what we learn or are put in those situations!
Luckily i have about 9 years of customer service behind me, and for my job its been essential. I know how to speak to people for the most part. Ive worked in fault call centres, credit collection, al the work telephone style jobs you could imagine. I know how to speak to people, which is why i rose to a high position.

Applying it to doorwork has been easy. I find its about humbling myself most of the time. Someone steps to me "right so you wanna fight do you? ok lets go now" i reply most of the time something along the lines of "no of course i don't want to fight you. I just want you to stop shouting, and carry on enjoying your night etc etc" most of the time this can work. Other doormen have different approaches though...and as im speaking come flying in with a karate kick or something..

I look at it like if i've avoided a fight for the night, then its a good nights work. I don't get payed enough to "fight" everynight. But after working all over the south east of the UK unfortunetely my home town is the worst. So it gets physical a fair few times. So i need to defend myself for real.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:25 AM   #63
MM
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Thats why i studied Aikido as well. But i found in real life situations it doesn't work. As ive said numerous times i dont want to beat people up. Just defend myself well. If you think you can throw any kind of lock or hold on someone throwing a real punch at real speed you're kidding yourself like i was. Just you tube boxing or punching if you haven't had real life altercations. And you will see what i mean. Punches come as hard snaps, not someone in a line, running toward you fist extended. Aikido is fooling a lot of people i feel.

As for those saying if im not happy with Aikido go, and stop posting. With respect, no. Theres people on here who no longer study Aikido but still post. If the thread makes uncomfrotable reading for you, then dont read it. Simple. I am being respectful and taking in other peoples views. Until i fully get into Krav or another art i will continue to read peoples responses and opinions because i find what everybody is sayng interesting.

Thanks
If you want to stay and post, I don't see any reason why you can't. Got no problem with that.

However, you're posts tend to lump "aikido" into one big world. As in your first paragraph. Some people's experiences with aikido don't run the same as yours. So, stop for a second and think about a few things. First, Ueshiba Morihei pretty much let a whole range of people test him. People who were high up in the martial arts world thought highly of him. In other words, he made Aikido work in all situations. Now, think of Shioda, Tomiki, and Tohei. They were tested also. By lots of people. Just research Kevin Blok's meeting with Shioda. So, their (Shioda, Tomiki, Tohei) Aikido worked. I don't think Chuck Clark, Dennis Hooker, Saotome, Ikeda, or Ellis Amdur (to name a few) have many problems with their Aikido working. At least not in the view you are taking. And I hear a lot of good things coming out of the TNBBC and I'm hoping that I'll be able to make a visit out there one day.

Really, unless you've experienced all these variations of Aikido, you can't sum up "in real life situations it doesn't work" and "Aikido is fooling a lot of people". Yes, you feel that way, but really, it isn't the Aikido that's failing. And hey, I don't have any problems stating, my aikido sucks. But, I'm working to correct that.

Mark
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:23 AM   #64
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Perhaps the most interesting thing about aikido is that the art itself can be all things to all people, but it all depends on the dojo. Soccer mom self-defense? It can be that. Hard core self-defense? It can be that. Weapons? Sure. Randori and competition? Got that, too. Spirituality? It's there. "Ki" training? It's there, too. The problem, of course, is finding the dojo that offers the kind of aikido one is looking for.

I've said this before, but the Tokyo police have a lot of martial arts to choose from. They're professionals, and what they train in has to work. Particularly since they are not allowed to carry guns except in special circumstances. Yoshinkan Aikido is a required course for female officers, and is an option for the kidoutai (riot police), and also taught to members of the Security Police (who provide security for members of government).

Which suggests to me that there's nothing wrong with "aikido" when it comes to subduing resisting opponents under strict rules of engagement. It sounds like your dojo, however, was not teaching you the kind of aikido you needed to know. Which is a problem, and you seem to have addressed it. But you should probably try some of the many other "flavors" (and dojo) of aikido before you write it off completely.

Edit: Also, don't labor under the misconception that the attacks in aikido are meant to simulate actual combat scenarios. They represent certain shapes of energy, which you then learn to manipulate. The idea of aikido is not "he punches me, I respond with shiho-nage", but rather "through shiho-nage, I learn how to manipulate this shape of energy coming at me." To be sure, there are many in aikido who don't quite understand this distinction.

Last edited by Josh Reyer : 01-03-2008 at 09:33 AM.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:24 AM   #65
L. Camejo
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

The OP would do well to re-read Kevin L.'s post #60 and Mark M.'s post #63.

Imho if one truly wants to leave anything then they just leave, there is no need to let anyone else know. Imho those who make an issue of it and announce their leaving are actually looking for a reason not to, i.e. they are looking for a reaction from someone to tell them that there may be another option to leaving.

I think the point of this thread is not about leaving Aikido at all, but about attempting to warn people that many Aikido dojo do not provide what they say with regard to usable real world skills. I agree totally with this.

However as Kevin L. says here -
Quote:
Bouncers for instance are hired to keep the peace in a bar and remove those that are not complying with the rules.

Good bouncers are those that can recognize trouble long before it starts and can influence the situation before it escalate into physical action. That is not to say that a bad bouncer is one that has situations that get physical! Some times it happens!

So, a bouncer must have a wide range of skills from verbal and non-verbal communication skills, to skills that allow him/her to remove someone from the bar physically with minmal damage.

They must also be able to protect themselves when things get really bad and there may be multiple people involved.

They must also know when to grab the "big stick" from behind the bar, and when to call in the calvary to!
one must be able to know what to do when. I still think that the OP went to an Aikido dojo in an attempt to get bouncer training.

I teach Aikido and Jujutsu and some of my Jujutsu Sensei actually got together and created a tailor-made training regimen to certify bouncers as being capable of having the tools necessary to do their job well (most of the Sensei are L.E.O.s also). The reason was because they found that the pure martial arts curriculum did not work precisely well for people like Bouncers, LEOs etc. who want a focused, specialized approach to address their specific needs, and they had a few of these folks in their dojo at the time.

Aikido can be applied easily to Bouncer's work but it is not a Bouncer training system. If one goes to a plumber to get their shoes fixed one is bound to be disappointed imho.
Quote:
If you think you can throw any kind of lock or hold on someone throwing a real punch at real speed you're kidding yourself
If this is the reality of your Aikido experience then I'd have to agree with William H. and say the problem is with your dojo/instruction not Aikido itself. For many of us, the quoted area above is not a problem at all. It comes down to your training methods and goals.

Just some thoughts.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:55 AM   #66
kironin
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Running can be a good option. One I would highly recommend as a defensive tactic for most.
I think it's more than simple running. It's tatics of escape and evasion along the lines that Marc MacYoung no nonsense self defense program espouses. Obviously this applies to some situations and not others.

Quote:
Many though have jobs or we are put in situations where running is not the thing we must do.

Bouncers for instance are hired to keep the peace in a bar and remove those that are not complying with the rules.

Good bouncers are those that can recognize trouble long before it starts and can influence the situation before it escalate into physical action. That is not to say that a bad bouncer is one that has situations that get physical! Some times it happens! ...

They must also know when to grab the "big stick" from behind the bar, and when to call in the calvary to!
My brother worked as bouncer when he was in law school. He had good verbal skills and no martial arts training. He did know a few simple skills to take out trouble makers quickly if it came to that. He was an ex-athlete who still did strength conditioning (around 260 lbs at 6'1") and the bar had a real good buddy system. His back up was an ex OU lineman who was taller and over 300 lbs. and who brought the big stick if all hell broke loose.

A friend of mine worked as bouncer in a what was affectionately called a "blood 'n guts" bar in Kenmore Square back in the day. Nightly fights were the norm. This guy loved a good bar brawl, probably why he worked there. He was a scrappier guy, not over 6' I think and lighter than 200. But he had cobbled together some decent skills from experience and there was the fact that he was pretty fearless and didn't mind being knocked out on occasion when all hell broke loose. Again, the bar bouncers had good buddy system and used strategies and teamwork. The usual result was the unconscious offending party were tossed in the dumpster out back to sleep it off.

The point really is in neither case was being an expert martial artists or training in any martial art by the individual a necessity for the job. What was a necessity was knowing how to talk to people, having a few simple skills to end a physical confrontation before it started, and having a buddy system and teamwork tatics in place for when all hell broke loose to as quickly as possible put an end to it.

Having a few simple skills and strategies and working on getting them down in an uncooperative environment in a few months is realistic working with those that have the same career need. Walking in to a traditional martial arts school which has so many other goals and students with probably even more reasons and goals, I really can't understand why it took two years for the OP to figure this out that the training wasn't what would fit the bill. Why he thinks another school built on cobbling together various traditional martial art moves is going to fit the bill either is beyond me. Yes punch and kicking is easier to pantomime and feel like you doing something. NOT a big revelation.

Hey thanks for the youtube stuff on Tony Blauer. As a neuroscientist I was aware of the speed of the startle/flinch response and the issue of hard wired responses and lack of habituation to a novel stimulus. I thought he had nice clear approach. Amazing what you can find on youtube!

Last edited by kironin : 01-03-2008 at 09:57 AM.

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Old 01-03-2008, 10:07 AM   #67
Roman Kremianski
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Hey Kevin I didn't say the ancient samurai art of Olympic sprinting was effective in clubs, just streets.
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:19 AM   #68
Ron Tisdale
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Ditto what Larry said...

Best,
Ron

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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:33 AM   #69
kironin
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Thats why i studied Aikido as well. But i found in real life situations it doesn't work. As ive said numerous times i dont want to beat people up. Just defend myself well. If you think you can throw any kind of lock or hold on someone throwing a real punch at real speed you're kidding yourself like i was. Just you tube boxing or punching if you haven't had real life altercations. And you will see what i mean. Punches come as hard snaps, not someone in a line, running toward you fist extended. Aikido is fooling a lot of people i feel.
This is not about aikido. This is a matter of the right kind of training.

Whether a particular martial arts school can provide an immediate need like that has a lot more to do with the experiences of the teacher, what kind of training they have been exposed to including cross-training or life training. What the goals of the training are. What the goals of the school are.

It's important to know the why, what, and limitations of a particular type of training are.

Yes it would be fooling a person if they came in with goals more appropriate to participating in a model mugging course.

Yes it would be fooling a person if they came in with an immediate need to learn some skills to be a good bouncer.

Usually some martial artist who takes on some career move that has immediate needs like a bouncer, was already training for quite a few years, 1st degree black belt at least, and so they simply have to learn to adapt their already acquired skills to the special situation. The point is they do need to adapt.

What you found was that the level of your skill set from your training so far was not up to your immediate needs. People have solved this issues in various ways. One way is to jump to another art. Another is to add training specialized to the immediate need. Another is to simply cross-train in a complementary art that incorporates the type of training needed (goals of the art or school are different). Find an aikido teacher who provide that training because of their own goals that fits the immediate need. Find a professional school or program that caters to immediate need for those with particular jobs.

Honestly, you sound as foolish as someone who expects to be able to write a novel because they learned how to spell and then finding disappointment, they decide the solution is to learn how to spell in another language.

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Old 01-03-2008, 10:46 AM   #70
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

I put my own time in bouncing in college and then later as a behavorial counselor in a residential facility for kids with behavior issues. I had a lot more good practice de-escalating a situation before it got started, but at the same time, when it was time to go hands on, you couldn't hesitate about it.

I had a good bit of experience in judo and wrestling then (with a solid year and half of aikido in high school), but was also in my height of karate training - talk about the wrong set of reflexes! The bouncing gig discouraged throwing strikes, but we could if defending ourselves (plus there's lots of things you can accidentally deliver *oops* to someone you have to put hands on).

But working with the kids (up to 17 years old) was a different matter and was actually more dangerous, because, in general, they were in less control of themselves, more willing to throw themselves at you with no regard for consequences and you were under much greater constraints in what you could physically do to defend yourself (not to mention the incredible amount of paperwork that followed any hands-on encounter).

And it was about that time I gave up karate, because the training I was getting there was not helping me perform my job function. Worse, it was detrimental in that I had the hesitation of stopping myself from throwing what I had been training to do. So I went back to playing with the college wrestling club and that worked out much better for me.

So, I can relate to finding an art that isn't workging out, though I can also allow that it depends what you put into it. But, I do welcome OP to continue posting here. I think it's helpful here to hear all perspectives of people that practice aikido. If everyone agreed about everything and didn't question anything, it would get dull pretty quickly . . .
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:55 PM   #71
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
What you found was that the level of your skill set from your training so far was not up to your immediate needs. People have solved this issues in various ways. One way is to jump to another art. Another is to add training specialized to the immediate need. Another is to simply cross-train in a complementary art that incorporates the type of training needed (goals of the art or school are different). Find an aikido teacher who provide that training because of their own goals that fits the immediate need.
It could not have expressed it better than this, thank you Mr. Hocker.

In all, everyone wants to be the best at what they aspire to be. But, in reality, they want it all in one package that dissolves quickly and assimilates immediately. That is impossible, train for the trained fighter not the irate drunkard or occasional bully. Your skill set test is 2-I-D, (Identify, Intervene, Defuse, Disengage), these may be tacit or verbal. Restrain and Remove are last resort options. When this is the step you are at, you must be prepared for anything..thus, not all training gives you all that you need in one package.

Cross-training is the key, you only get out of your training what you put into it.

A few questions I have, you do not have to answer if you do not care to. Why do you want to be a "Bouncer" ? Why do you train at a church-based Aikido club and want to be Bouncer in a bar? Your Sensei ,according to the website, does not have any experience in this type of occupation, why did you choose this dojo?

http://www.dcmurphy.f2s.com/content.php?article.1.255

Mickey
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:52 PM   #72
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
If you think you can throw any kind of lock or hold on someone throwing a real punch at real speed you're kidding yourself like i was. Just you tube boxing or punching if you haven't had real life altercations. And you will see what i mean. Punches come as hard snaps, not someone in a line, running toward you fist extended. Aikido is fooling a lot of people i feel.
I've looked for real time Aikido examples on YouTube and haven't found much either. I've also seen some pretty good sucker punches in my day to get a basic idea of how quick a strike can come. The punches you're describing aren't practiced at either of the dojos I've spent any time in and while a person knows it's coming, I've seen some pretty full speed stuff being applied pretty well, so far as I can tell. I'm far from being a prize fighter, but I've known enough scrappers to have a sense of the "average" person's ability to strike and be countered...at least, in my neck of the woods. Interestingly enough, it's usually when I've been surprised that I've been the most successfull applying a technique. When I think about what to do, I've almost always failed.
Speaking so broadly just seems a bit excessive to me. I don't think Aikido has been fooling people so much as it seems to often be very subtle and difficult to learn. Personally, I was skeptical when I first saw it. It's only over time of interacting with it that I've come to have any trust in it.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:57 PM   #73
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
It could not have expressed it better than this, thank you Mr. Hocker.

http://www.dcmurphy.f2s.com/content.php?article.1.255

Mickey
Well, both of us could use a good editor.

Quote:
There are NO hidden costs. The Luton Aikido Club does not have a joining fee for new members.

The standard charge for each two-hour session is £2 (but £1 for concessions).

The club sessions are as follows: - Sundays, 1pm 3pm (but NOT the first Sunday in the month; Wednesdays, 8pm 10pm; Thursdays, 8pm 10pm.
Damn! That's cheap! Certainly can't beat the price!

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Old 01-03-2008, 04:02 PM   #74
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Cool, you guys covered it pretty well. Roman, I thought that is what you studied..Run Fu Ryu? Just kidding with you, I know you well enough from here to know you know better! Didn't mean to imply otherwise! I just used it as a talking point as running is brought up alot it seems as an option, and it is probably about as good advice as you can give anyone (or escape and evasion as it was more aptly put).

Anyway, most of you guys covered this pretty darn well....

I'd say that for rote self defense, RBSD, or Bouncer training that aikido methodology is about as inefficient of a delivery mechanism as going to a plumber as Larry put it!

However, (big however), you are concerned with a deeper study of the spectrum of force, dealing with it more skillfully, etc, refining your abilities...then I'd say it is worthwile...hence why we have a fair number of police officers involved I think.

it might be therapy for some of these guys, but I think for many it is a way that they can work through at a deeper level the spectrum of things.

I find the methodology useful in my part profession, (training military soldiers in Combatives), I'd never mention aikido nor would I attempt to use the methodology to train them directly, as it is as I put, a ineffficient system for delivering the skills they need in the time they have to spend with me.

It is a good practice for me to learn the subtleness of applications and stuff like that.

You could equate it to taking courses on Organic Chemistry to become a wine maker.

Certainly you don't need Org Chem to make wine, all you do is ferment so grapes. If this is your goal, then why waste your time getting an enology or biochem degree???

However, if you are interested is cause and effect, making the best when possible or explaining why things are the way they are....well you need to delve a little deeper into winemaking!

I think aikido and internal martial arts, in general fall into that category.

I can teach someone to be fairly proficient in beating people up....that is easy, even teach them in fairly short order to defend themselves with minimal damage in most situations.

For many though, and I put myself and many that are here in this same category....There is much more to "the down and dirty".

We are professionals that have taken an oath in some fashion to be the best we can be....Aikido, Budo...is for this....

It is about the Craft...not the delivery nor the tools.

It was interesting living in Germany for the last few years. I noticed that in many cases there are still artisians in the old country, woodworkers, master craftsmen, and those that serve long apprentistships to become skilled experts in their trade.

I am not so sure this happens so much in the U.S these days. Most people learn enough to get by, and it serves them well long enough to make enough to survive or retire.

Seems like those that do follow the path of mastery or art are almost looked upon as "geeks", "weirdos" or what not.

Why is that???

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Old 01-03-2008, 04:06 PM   #75
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Matthew wrote:

Quote:
've looked for real time Aikido examples on YouTube and haven't found much either
I think this is because it ends up looking like grappling, MMA, or other forms of non-compliant jiujitsu.

The dynamics of how we train in aikido, while principally sound, do not carry over as a direct dynamic of reality. This is why you find guys like me that study aikido for many years, then proceed to go out and get their ass handed to them by someone that could careless how long you studied aikido, or how you do a proper iriminage!

There are those out there that can demonstrate aikido principles in non-compliance..the problem is, it ends up looking like other stuff, and it the teaching point of aikido gets lost...so why bother?

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