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Old 04-16-2002, 03:29 PM   #26
Greg Jennings
Dojo: S&G BJJ
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,125
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Re: Re: AIKIDO'S 10TH DAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami


YAMANTAKA : Sorry, Greg. With all due respect, that's a question, not a statement. Even if Bruce intended the answer to be Hikitsuchi Sensei, he asked a question and as such it was answered by everybody. Just that.
Best
We'll have to agree to disagree.

And back to my original comments.

The story as I read it, I believe reading in a printed edition of Aikido Journal is that the Founder was present and part of the conversation wherein Koichi Tohei was verbally, but with witnesses given the 10th dan.

IIRC, it was something about some other organization having a 10th dan and awarding Tohei Sensei one was seen as enhancing the prestige of the Aikikai. At the time Tohei Sensei, while incredibly talented and the chief instructor of the Aikikai, hadn't been training, like, several decades.

The 10th dan award was, after the Founder's death, formalized by the Aikikai.

---

Before the adoption of the kyu/dan system by the Aikikai, Minoru Mochizuki Sensei was awarded a mokoroku of some kind. Someone chimed in that this was a Menkyo Kaidan.

This is often used to mean "full transmission". I.e., something roughly like the connotation of a 10th dan.

Add to that, that Mochizuki Sensei, was, supposedly, offered the Doshu job before Kisshomaru Doshu decided to take it up. IIRC, the plan was for Mochizuki Sensei to marry the Founder's daughter and adopt the Ueshiba name.

It's not a dan ranking of any kind, but I think it's an interesting point, none the less.

---

So, any way you slice it, if the stories are as I remember them, there were three 10th dans given verbally by the Founder.

Evidently only Tohei Sensei's was in front of witnesses and also the only one formalized by the Aikikai.

---

Keep in mind that I'm dredging all of the above up from memory and my only reason for it is to stimulate interested people to look into the history.

---

I don't mean to knock Hikitsuchi or Abe Senseis. I have the _utmost_ respect for them.

I do, however, strongly believe in a free flow of information as long as no one is harmed by it. For example, if any of the principals in the above stories asked me to zip it, I certainly would.

Best Regards,

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 04-16-2002 at 04:26 PM.

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-16-2002, 03:47 PM   #27
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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I would have to agree with what Greg said. It was clearly a statement of fact. Sort of like asking who was the X president of the United States and then delivering the answer and he was incorrect anyway you slice because at the very least there was Abe sensei as well and frankly I doubt he was terribly aware of Tohei's status.

Greg, as far as Tohei goes, I was just operating off the encyclopedia. I was originally going to raise the same point but for some reason I double checked it. I think I kept kicking around the 8th dan promotion. Whatever we come up with works for me and I think Tohei, for purposes of this discussion, should be included anyway.
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Old 04-23-2002, 11:46 AM   #28
Mike Haber
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 34
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Blaize Sensei

Quote:
Originally posted by aikilouis
Hikitsushi Sensei's influence is also visible in Europe, since he travelled several times to give seminars in France. What's more, one of his students is Gerard Blaize, 7th dan Aikikai, the first non japanese to receive that grade. I happen to belong to his organization (AFATJ=Association Francaise d'Aikido Traditionnel du Japon) and twice a year I attend G Blaize's seminars. Incidentally, my sensei's sensei is currently in Shingu, and in a few weeks we should receive news of Hikitsushi Sensei's health, which has been reportedly declining for some time.

Louis R Joseph
What is Blaize Sensei's aikido like? Does he emphasize atemi and kihon?

Sincerely,

Mike Haber
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Old 04-26-2002, 05:17 PM   #29
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
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so far nothing new

So far,

There has been nothing new that I have not already found on the internet or video about Hikitsuchi sensei?

Thanks for trying though.

Could be the only thing to do is train with whoever is in USA from Hikitsuchi's students?

I was hoping to get a few international views, especially from some of you in Japan?

At least we did find out something about verbal 10th dan and certificates awarded after O'Sensei's passing into heaven ...

One of our teachers in the east, in particular, Zen Okimura sensei of Delaware brought this story to our attention at O'Sensei's memorial ceremony, which he holds each year.

He asks one of the children to figure out how long it has been since O'Sensei passed away, then he tells a simple story.

In buddhist thinking, it has been that many years since O'Sensei is in heaven. We are not celebrating his death, but his rebirth in heaven. So instead of his death, we celebrate O'Sensei's birthday in heaven that day.

O'Sensei saw something in Hikitsuchi sensei, if you have a story of a seminar, or have seen the video from 1988, maybe that will be enough to explore some of the training and demonstrations seen there verses the way we in the USA train or are instructed in to learn Aikido?

Sorry if I annoy anyone, but some of the most annoying people come up with some pretty interesting questions?

You can't always find enlightenment by walking in the footsteps of the person in front of you, sometimes you have to tread upon new ground?

If we can tread on new ground, now and then, we might have some real gems of information to exchange?

Thank you all for patience.

For those who want a physical shot at me real body ... you might get it if you smile, partner.

Don't blame me if you hurt yourself hitting me though, I take no responsibility for injurys!
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Old 04-27-2002, 03:21 AM   #30
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
Location: Brazil
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Cool HIKITSUCHI SENSEI'S CERTIFICATE

One last thing I forgot...It seems Hikitsuchi Sensei DO HAVE a certificate from Ueshiba Morihei O. Stanley Pranin, of Aikido Journal, has stated, some time ago, that he personally saw and examined Hikitsuchi's 10th Dan certificate, directly issued by O-Sensei. Anyone interested may ask him. The problem with the Aikikai seems to be that Hikitsuchi Sensei didn't follow the "official proceedings" for having this accepted by the Powers that Be...Also, I believe that, in the last years, he has become increasingly distant from the Aikikai. Politics, I believe...
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 04-27-2002, 04:38 AM   #31
nikonl
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 130
China
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Question The only 10th Dan by O sensei?

I've always thought that Tohei Sensei was the only 10th Dan given by O'Sensei. Now i'm very confused. Can someone pls explain to me??
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Old 04-27-2002, 08:12 AM   #32
guest1234
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Posts: 915
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Hi Nikon,

Probably confusing because so many posts are long and some are extraneous info, but mytake on what so many have posted (I'd at least reread Greg Jennings' and Kami's posts), then Tohei was ginve a 10th dan, verbally prior to and official later after O Sensei's death. A few others may have received them, are reported to have, etc, either before or after, but some dispute the fact (although others say they have seen the certificate, and that would seem to be good enough proof). I guess it boils down to which version of history anyone believes.
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Old 04-27-2002, 08:43 AM   #33
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
Location: Brazil
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 355
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HIKITSUCHI'S CERTIFICATE

Quote:
Originally posted by ca
...A few others may have received them, are reported to have, etc, either before or after, but some dispute the fact (although others say they have seen the certificate, and that would seem to be good enough proof). I guess it boils down to which version of history anyone believes.
KAMI : You're right, Colleen! That's why I said "It seems..." and "I believe..." about Hikitsuchi's certificate.
Until it is presented to the public and confirmed, it will always be the word of some against the denial of others.
That's life...

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 04-27-2002, 01:14 PM   #34
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Thanks, Nikon , but I know I'm actually one of the more opinionated irritating ones ...

Besides, you go and post something like that and I'm never going to win the 'most ignored' competition
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