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Old 01-01-2008, 08:38 AM   #26
Andrew R
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

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Joseph Pielech wrote: View Post
Bye.
I bet you're fun at parties.
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:53 AM   #27
Daniel Ranger-Holt
Location: Luton
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Hi everyone

Quote:
Erik Jögimar wrote: View Post
This is something i've been fighting with alot past few weeks, the insecurity and worry that it doesnt work if i find myself in confrontation. Or should i say *my aikido*?
Last night i bought in new years eve at the biggest club in my home town, there were nine fights, five resolved easily, door staff there on time, two were physical attacks toward me one backhand as a short guy was walking away and another was an ashtray attack a swipe holding an ashtray. And my Aikido didn't even cross my mind to use, what i'm trying to say is, surely after two years it should have been natural to do at least something? Instead of the rather unsightly grappling, messy but effective takedowns that naturally spring to use. The AIkido i have been taught and i have been taught by three main instructors at our dojo...who all seem to disagree on certain things (which may have something to do with it i dont know) seems to be uneffective for a job where every night there will potentially be an attack. Erik i dont know how long you've been doing aikido, but say its a year, shouldnt you feel comfortable you could do something? A Thai Boxer whos been attending class three times a week for a year, or a boxer, or a BJJ would be effective...but as Aikidoka most of us after this time are still..."errrr will this work?" which is really really bad if your learning the art purely to defend yourself in a real life situation.

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Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
Maybe it's not for you. Maybe it's not what you were looking for to begin with, hence your disappointment. Follow your gut, and you will find your way.
I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo, and this is what i read online for the most part. But looking back, it was the wrong art for me, because the self defence it teaches you isn't real and i feel for those wishing to become effective in a short time 6 or so months, definitely not.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I can understand your points, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say your job does not allow you to use strikes, yet you claim krav maga is better for your job? My training in krav maga was not about restraint, it was about killing people as fast as possible.

It would seem to me that a pure grappling art would be much more useful.
If i look further into Krav Maga and find its about killing people as fast as possible then i will have made another mistake and keep searching. Just at this point it seems like the next natural stop for me. Krav teaches grappling and multiple opponents, where as BJJ is just one opponent. Obviously in a situation with regards to my job i'd need the more than one opponent training. As i have seen so far, no killing, just stopping people fast. If that means hurting them in the process then rather them than me. It sounds cruel but ive seen how cruel/animal life and relentless people can be. I was an office manager before i did doorwork so was pretty much oblivious to how people can be in most violent situations. Im 28 my last fight was when i was about 17. I always had the size for doorwork and took it up, thinking my aikido would suffice as i natrually entered the job. But im finding it wont be near enough. The worst feeling is the feeling of being unsure. At our dojo there is a guy who has been doing boxing just normal boxing for a bit of self confidence, sure its brutal and basic but he said within 5 months he felt confident he could defend himself in a street situation and that was only training once a week. He's looking to cut his akido right down to do more boxing, i feel he will leave as for self defence he is seeing the same as me. A guy who left to do wing chun has never looked back, for the same reasons...but i know little about wing chun.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Some of your post (as Don Hinted at) does not make sense but hey what do you know? No disrespect but you're just a beginner.

Again Good Luck.

William Hazen

P.S. If you're working as a bouncer at a bar Then Aikido actually works GREAT...At least that is my experiance. Restraint, Diplomacy and Martial Awareness are the tools of a good bouncer. Having a Good Left Hook is cool too but destroying unrulely drunks usually leads to to you getting destroyed in return either by his friends or the legal system.
Exactly my point ive been doing aikido for two years, three times a week and in your own words, im "just a beginner" "what do you know" thats not good enough for a martial art in my option. I think i kind of knew all this as i was training maybe a year an a half in or something, but you kind of just carry on because you are with friends, and almost feel rude cross training. Im too nice. And i disagree about Aikido working great as a bouncer, in theory its the best martial art for that kind of job. But the speed people attack you, throw punches and fly at you isn't within Aikidos rulebooks i have found. And it just looks pretty on you tube or when someone is running with a fist extended (not a real punch) but not when the split second of a fist is thrown at your nose

Yeh i have excellent self control though, the one thing i do have. In the four months, ive been slapped, punched, stubbed with a cigerette and not hit back, just got to the floor and restrained. CCTV in my town is everywhere, all over the clubs i work. I'm very careful of course some people i work with have a different approach. But thats up to them to face the consequences. I have nothing to prove with people. I just want my money and to go home!

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Daniel,

Neither aikido nor any other style is going to be all things to all people, so I've no issue with what you say there. I'm curious, though, if it was a case of being sold a bill of goods when you joined up, or if you heard what you wanted to hear. Were you actually told that you would be able to quickly learn techniques that you could use to subdue an angry drunk without harm to either one of you?
Hi mary, i was told aikido was a self defence martial art. Purely self defence. I must admit i wasn't told i would learn the techniques quickly. I just assumed within at least a year three times a week training, id be able to confidently deal with any attacks with my aikido, and improve from there. No one said to me though "you will be able to use this very quickly" so my mistake there...as i said i should have as others did, left class within a few weeks or months...but im veeery stubborn and kept going for two more years thinking there must be some kind of light coming here...i didnt find it quick enough. So decided to leave.

Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote: View Post
That whole thing sounded like planted advertising, with the video add to match.

We should do a reverse one....I was able to lay the smack down with ease. Gators feared my ground techniques. I was a bouncer in war zone (special hand-to-gun unit). but I never felt complete until ....AIKIDO! changed my life forever
No advertising, just saying what i feel. I left a religion once and people said similar things. Its very spooky how we get attatched to something so passionately, we almost make it personal to ourselves. Especially when its a martial art. I used to feel the same when everyone attacked Aikido. Its odd, almost cult ish. Ignore the Krav Maga bits then, and focus on what im saying about the actual Aikido.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
After reading this again, I noticed a few more things that bother me about this. SO, I'm going to point them out (slow day here)

The video you post below has the exact same kind of training in it. The exact same kind of techniques. How is the training method different?

If you still only 'feel' you can do something, your training methods are still lacking. I know exactly what I am capable of in any given situation. This is a common problem with the types of training you are seeking out, and why I stopped training krav maga. 'Feeling' is not good enough.

After watching that video, I fail to see how it is any different than the aikido I was taught. Except for they didn't wear gi.
Ok then i should have come to your Dojo Don. The aikido you are beign taught sounds like the kind of thing i am looking for. But because everyone seems to have a different Aikido. Unless you aikido has a specific name...im back to square one.

Id say one month in and feeling i can do something is brilliant for what ten or so classes? aikido im 2 years in and still dont even "feel" like i could do something. Your questions seem more like attacks and i feel ive touched a nerve. Dont take it personal. You're probably much much better at learning Aikido then i was. Im just sayin how i feel about it and why im choosing another art to try.

Quote:
Don McConnell wrote: View Post
There is no doubt that if you work a job that requires you to use non-lethal force and in a controlled manner, you need to have concentrated quick training that will give you something to work with. In general, aikido does not provide this path. If you LIKE aikido, and are willing to stick with it long enough you will find that if can be very effective. If you somehow either thought or were told that you would gain a quick ability to have a good self-denfense repitore from aikido, then you were either wrong or were "misled".

I had much the same reaction as someone else who watched the Krav Maga sequence on Human Weapon.....dang that's aikido. Now I will grant you that aikido does not as a general rule emphasize the atemi, either punching, elbows or kicks that are shown in Krav Maga, but they are there. Its a sometimes unfortunate artifact of inheriting a teaching method from the east, wherein the student is expected to discover some things for themselves.

Well, I hope you find what you are looking for; my guess is that it will have some elements of aikido; they just won't call it that.
As i said before, this video does not look at all like the Aikido ive been taught or the aikido ive viewed on you tube. So.... as for krav having elements of aikido i hope it does. Then my two years wont have been wasted. As for sticking with aikido, i do like it, but im not willing to stick with it any longer to make it effective. id say two years is enough time for it to be at least effective. In my opinion. And it hasn't been effective.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
To be honest, it sounds like the OP went to an Aikido dojo and expected to get training that would better be found in a Bouncer training program. I think he should move on and find what will suit him better, but I get this funny feeling that he does not really know what that is (especially after the KM references). It also sounds like he has not been in that many real altercations due to the level of speculation in the original post, another reason why he may not understand Aikido's applicability to his needs.

Gambate.
LC
No i dont really know what will suit me better than aikido at this early self discovery stage, your right Larry. Krav seems like a good choice at the moment. But even that may be wrong for me. After all, i thought Aikido was right for me at one stage. But at the moment it is hitting all the buttons. A year 6 months in i may find that its not for me and move on again cool, i may never get there and just end up with a mess of aquired skills. But im brave enough and honest enough to at least admit Aikido (for me) is not effective and im moving on.

As for not being in real life altercations as i said i have been doing the doors five nights a week for a good few months. I wont say where but its not hard to find out right? Anyone who knows that town/area of the UK will understand. Every night is a real life altercation. Granted not every night someone squares off in front of me and starts karate kicking me, but its near enough every OTHER night. Seriously, real life altercations is my job so maybe you didnt read / missed that i am actually a doorman i dunno. Strange one that.

Touched a nerve again? this is all going horribly wrong.

Quote:
Erik Jacobson wrote: View Post
Do whatever you feel you need to do. However, blanket statements based on your own personal experiences with Aikido won't get you a cup of tea and a biscut.
Sorry about the blanket statements but i stress over and over In My Opinion, and My Aikido doesnt work etc etc. I can only say those things so much, you get the point. its from my perspective. Yeah i know i wont get tea and biccies. It's not really nice saying im leaving the art. Almost like im trying to rile people. but this forum above any other forum ive been to has the most mature and honest people so i felt posting something like im leaving the art here would open up interesting debate. And to my suprise. people have actually agreed with me or shared the same feelings. I just imagine had more patience to stick it out. Or have not been in a job or situation to make them sit and think about their own safety.

As i said before, its like the religion thing, being honest about what you do and admitting there are flaws there you try to ignore or block your mind off from asking, can be a bad bad thing. Almost cult-like.

There is an instructor at my dojo who is fantastic and i really admire him. His aikido is fast, swift and i think would be effective in a fair few of the situations i describe. Ive never seen him attacked with anywhere near a real punch etc. But he looks good and his Aikido i think would stand up to brawlers. But he's been doing it for 17 years.

Thanks to those who responded with kind words and support anyway. Sometimes we just need to be honest almost as Kevin Leavitt put it and if its not working, find something that will. Life is too short to spend 5 - 10 years learning a self defence art, when you can learn it in 3-6 months, then improve on whats there. The more i look into this, the more Aikido and the whole thing has really dissapointed me in fact.

But please please no one take anything personally...of course we love our art i understand that. But it is only that...a martial art.
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:12 AM   #28
crbateman
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo, and this is what i read online for the most part. But looking back, it was the wrong art for me, because the self defence it teaches you isn't real and i feel for those wishing to become effective in a short time 6 or so months, definitely not.
I can't agree with this sentiment. If your meaning is that Aikido is not designed primarily as a self-defense system, you could be at least partially right. If you are saying that it takes longer than 6 months to become martially effective, you would definitely be correct. But to say that someone at an accomplished skill level could not defend himself with his Aikido is way off base, IMHO. Mind you, it is just my opinion, but I'm not prepared to hit Hitohiro Saito, or any of a hundred others I could name, in the mouth to test the theory...
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:59 AM   #29
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Location: Houston
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
After reading this again, I noticed a few more things that bother me about this. SO, I'm going to point them out (slow day here)

The video you post below has the exact same kind of training in it. The exact same kind of techniques. How is the training method different?

If you still only 'feel' you can do something, your training methods are still lacking. I know exactly what I am capable of in any given situation. This is a common problem with the types of training you are seeking out, and why I stopped training krav maga. 'Feeling' is not good enough.

After watching that video, I fail to see how it is any different than the aikido I was taught. Except for they didn't wear gi.
I agree with Don.

That Krav looked like most of the Aikido on You Tube. While Aikido may not be for the original poster, I think that the rare more effective Aikido would work as well as most things but in his case, he sounds super dependent on an art to teach him. He's the one who has to bring the goods to the fight. If he couldn't do it with Aikido, I don't think he'll be able to do it with anything else either. There is no superior martial systems - believing in that is his problem. There are just superior martial artists.

Best,
Jorge

Last edited by Jorge Garcia : 01-01-2008 at 10:03 AM. Reason: It sounded like I was talking to Don but I was talking to the original poster.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:58 AM   #30
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Hi everyone

The AIkido i have been taught and i have been taught by three main instructors at our dojo...who all seem to disagree on certain things (which may have something to do with it i dont know) seems to be uneffective for a job where every night there will potentially be an attack. Erik i dont know how long you've been doing aikido, but say its a year, shouldnt you feel comfortable you could do something? A Thai Boxer whos been attending class three times a week for a year, or a boxer, or a BJJ would be effective...but as Aikidoka most of us after this time are still..."errrr will this work?" which is really really bad if your learning the art purely to defend yourself in a real life situation.

I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo, and this is what i read online for the most part. But looking back, it was the wrong art for me, because the self defence it teaches you isn't real and i feel for those wishing to become effective in a short time 6 or so months, definitely not.

Exactly my point ive been doing aikido for two years, three times a week and in your own words, im "just a beginner" "what do you know" thats not good enough for a martial art in my option. I think i kind of knew all this as i was training maybe a year an a half in or something, but you kind of just carry on because you are with friends, and almost feel rude cross training. Im too nice. And i disagree about Aikido working great as a bouncer, in theory its the best martial art for that kind of job. But the speed people attack you, throw punches and fly at you isn't within Aikidos rulebooks i have found. And it just looks pretty on you tube or when someone is running with a fist extended (not a real punch) but not when the split second of a fist is thrown at your nose

Yeh i have excellent self control though, the one thing i do have. In the four months, ive been slapped, punched, stubbed with a cigerette and not hit back, just got to the floor and restrained. CCTV in my town is everywhere, all over the clubs i work. I'm very careful of course some people i work with have a different approach. But thats up to them to face the consequences. I have nothing to prove with people. I just want my money and to go home!

Thanks to those who responded with kind words and support anyway. Sometimes we just need to be honest almost as Kevin Leavitt put it and if its not working, find something that will. Life is too short to spend 5 - 10 years learning a self defence art, when you can learn it in 3-6 months, then improve on whats there. The more i look into this, the more Aikido and the whole thing has really dissapointed me in fact.

But please please no one take anything personally...of course we love our art i understand that. But it is only that...a martial art.
Hey Dan I meant no disrespect in my post about you being a beginner...But to your points about doing something to "defend" yourself by going to class just three times a week in any art in the hopes of becoming effective at self defense I suggest you reevaluate your thinking.

Being a Bouncer... Bodyguard... Law Enforcement... or a Member of the Armed Forces means training every day. It means daily Physical Conditioning... Martial Arts... Situational (aka Martial) Awareness...and Task Specfic Training...

That is if you value your life and well being...There are Big Musclebound Dudes with Street Sense who can get away with not training everyday because they live the lifestyle to begin with and then there are guys like you who need to learn how to defend themselves...

Second...Your Aikido Dojo is screwed up... Sounds more like a McDojo to me... Meaning the "Yudansha" there have diluted the Martial Side of Aikido to the point that it is useless. No worries Dan. I hear you...Most Aikidoka can't fight thier way out of a wet paperbag when they absoulutely need to to do it. I personally think it's a shame they take raw beginners like you off the street and infuse them with all the bad habits and poor Aikido they know and fool them into thinking they have been trained.

No worries Dan... You're on the right track. You intuitively know your Sensei's teachings are useless. O'Sensei the founder of Aikido himself warned against depending too much on instruction and "dojo" time.

My teacher Micheal Fowler Sensei practices everyday His teachers Shoji Nishio Shihan (when he was alive) and Koji Yoshida Shihan practice everyday. I practice everyday and put my practice up against other Martial Artists when I can to learn from them and help make my practice better. No matter what Dojo you end up walking to into this is the spirit you want to look for in your teachers and in yourself. Practice is serious business and your life depends on it

One last hint: When I started my Aikido Journey almost 20 years ago After years in other Martial Arts I used only one criteria that my first Karate Sensei (That man is most arguably the most famous Karatedoka in the USA and those who trained at his Dojo on Artesia Blvd know who I am about about ) gave me about evaluating Dojo's. "Can the Head Instructor kick my ass." LOL

Again Dan Best of Luck to you.

William Hazen
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Old 01-01-2008, 12:08 PM   #31
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Hi everyone
hi

Quote:

I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo,
This is one of my biggest beefs with Aikido. And I think it's a fantastic art. But it's not an art that is always honest with people. Sure it teaches effective self defence for the streets in that there are people out there that have used it for just that. But if someone comes in saying that's what they're looking for - there's a bunch of caveats that person should be given in my opinion. But generally they're not. People love Aikido so much they have convinced themselves it's "all anyone needs" or "the most sophisticated art" etc. So rather than say "will it will give you some tools, but you'll need to allow a bunch of time, or train in a different way" they say "sure, I knew this guy once..."

See the thread on "exaggeration in Aikido" for some lively discussion on this one.

Quote:

If i look further into Krav Maga and find its about killing people as fast as possible then i will have made another mistake and keep searching. Just at this point it seems like the next natural stop for me. Krav teaches grappling and multiple opponents, where as BJJ is just one opponent.
Of course Aikido is about multiple opponents as well. In other words, just because it says it on the brochure doesn't mean you'll be able to do it in reality. I always advise people to be cautious about choosing a style based on claims to protect vs multples - because I think none of them really do it in practice - it's just too big an ask to do reliably. The closest I've seen I think would be some of the concepts from Aikido (and if you read my history you'll see I'm *not* one of those who blindly tout Aikido as the ultimate art)

Quote:

Exactly my point ive been doing aikido for two years, three times a week and in your own words, im "just a beginner" "what do you know" thats not good enough for a martial art in my option. I think i kind of knew all this as i was training maybe a year an a half in or something, but you kind of just carry on because you are with friends, and almost feel rude cross training. Im too nice.
I think cross training can go a long way to functionalising Aikido. People often mention that O'sensei's senior students were all highly ranked in other arts and more and more I'm thinking cross training enables Aikido. So rather than chucking it in it might be interesting to experiment with some cross training in a 'live" art (boxing, werestling, judo, BJJ, Muay Thai etc) and seeing how that informs your Aikido training. if your investment in Aikido is valuable but just needs something extra to activate it, it would be a shame to waste it.
Quote:

And i disagree about Aikido working great as a bouncer,
Hmm...if your experience is different to someone elses in this regard, what can we take from that.
Quote:
in theory its the best martial art for that kind of job. But the speed people attack you, throw punches and fly at you isn't within Aikidos rulebooks i have found. And it just looks pretty on you tube or when someone is running with a fist extended (not a real punch) but not when the split second of a fist is thrown at your nose
Agreed. I think there are some issues with training methodology. One of those issues is that the methodology does differ from dojo to dojo, so it might be worth looking round. Having said that there is a lot of "at my school we train realistically talk" online - iow you hear a bunch about people's different training method but every clip and dojo you see starts to look similar.

I think there are some exciting applications of Aikido from some of the structure based flinch defence that is around now - like crazy monkey boxing. The question is how many Aikido schools are in a position to start experimenting with this. Experimentation has never been a strong point of traditional martial arts.

Quote:

No advertising, just saying what i feel. I left a religion once and people said similar things. Its very spooky how we get attatched to something so passionately, we almost make it personal to ourselves. Especially when its a martial art. I used to feel the same when everyone attacked Aikido. Its odd, almost cult ish.
I will agree with that. Not everyone and not all the time, but there are cultish elements I think in most traditional martial arts.
Quote:

Id say one month in and feeling i can do something is brilliant for what ten or so classes? aikido im 2 years in and still dont even "feel" like i could do something.
This is why I would prefer live arts for real world defence. It's not left up to how you "feel" only to realise it doesn't work that way when you come to "do". Train something that gives you the opportunity to practice regularly vs fully resisting partners - i.e. spar. Don't buy into that "sport styles aren't good for real fighting" stuff - it's malarky. Evidence has shown time and again, from the judo v jujitsu competition of Kano's time to the first UFC in 93 - sporting styles make better fighters quicker. And in your particular case you shouldn't even be worried about the "but they have rules" objections, as you are working in an environment with it's own rules anyway. Many of which will be similar (you won't want to be dropping people on their head or crushing their windpipe)
Quote:

As i said before, this video does not look at all like the Aikido ive been taught or the aikido ive viewed on you tube. So.... as for krav having elements of aikido i hope it does. Then my two years wont have been wasted. As for sticking with aikido, i do like it, but im not willing to stick with it any longer to make it effective. id say two years is enough time for it to be at least effective. In my opinion. And it hasn't been effective.
I train BJJ now. I find Aikido response come out natrually in BJJ sparring (so under stress and pressure) so it can happen. But I trained Aikido for more than 2 years, so therein lies the problem. That's why I'm interested in taking aikido and applying from a starting point of the startle reflex Because there's alot of folk like you who when a punch is thrown and they instinctively cover up rather than enter deeply are thinking "well aikido didn't come out" I suspect there's alot of opportunity to apply aikido from your initial reaction, it's just that your initial reaction is likely to be so different from what you feel it should be (based on what is done in the dojo) that you figure Aikido hasn't "stuck". But what if we're only talking about one split second being the problem. What if you can flinch, cover up, and then start to lead, blend, throw, control. It's a possiblity.
Quote:

As i said before, its like the religion thing, being honest about what you do and admitting there are flaws there you try to ignore or block your mind off from asking, can be a bad bad thing. Almost cult-like.
*nods* that is a problem in some cases. I"ve said before (and been lambasted for it) that it's Aikido's general reisitance to change of trainng and critical thinking, and lack of honesty as to what it is and is not good for which I fear will put it on the endangered arts list over the next 10-20 years

Quote:

But please please no one take anything personally...of course we love our art i understand that. But it is only that...a martial art.
Ah yes but be aware that although to you it is "only" a martial art others are saying "it's my martial art". In otherwords you have walked into Aikido to pick up some tools to to a job. So it's hard to see why people get so connected to a place to get tools. For most others on the forum, myself included "only a martial art" sounds a bit contradictory....:-)

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-01-2008, 12:16 PM   #32
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Hi everyone

Last night i bought in new years eve at the biggest club in my home town, there were nine fights, five resolved easily, door staff there on time, two were physical attacks toward me one backhand as a short guy was walking away and another was an ashtray attack a swipe holding an ashtray. And my Aikido didn't even cross my mind to use, what i'm trying to say is, surely after two years it should have been natural to do at least something? Instead of the rather unsightly grappling, messy but effective takedowns that naturally spring to use. The AIkido i have been taught and i have been taught by three main instructors at our dojo...who all seem to disagree on certain things (which may have something to do with it i dont know) seems to be uneffective for a job where every night there will potentially be an attack. Erik i dont know how long you've been doing aikido, but say its a year, shouldnt you feel comfortable you could do something? A Thai Boxer whos been attending class three times a week for a year, or a boxer, or a BJJ would be effective...but as Aikidoka most of us after this time are still..."errrr will this work?" which is really really bad if your learning the art purely to defend yourself in a real life situation.

I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo, and this is what i read online for the most part. But looking back, it was the wrong art for me, because the self defence it teaches you isn't real and i feel for those wishing to become effective in a short time 6 or so months, definitely not.

If i look further into Krav Maga and find its about killing people as fast as possible then i will have made another mistake and keep searching. Just at this point it seems like the next natural stop for me. Krav teaches grappling and multiple opponents, where as BJJ is just one opponent. Obviously in a situation with regards to my job i'd need the more than one opponent training. As i have seen so far, no killing, just stopping people fast. If that means hurting them in the process then rather them than me. It sounds cruel but ive seen how cruel/animal life and relentless people can be. I was an office manager before i did doorwork so was pretty much oblivious to how people can be in most violent situations. Im 28 my last fight was when i was about 17. I always had the size for doorwork and took it up, thinking my aikido would suffice as i natrually entered the job. But im finding it wont be near enough. The worst feeling is the feeling of being unsure. At our dojo there is a guy who has been doing boxing just normal boxing for a bit of self confidence, sure its brutal and basic but he said within 5 months he felt confident he could defend himself in a street situation and that was only training once a week. He's looking to cut his akido right down to do more boxing, i feel he will leave as for self defence he is seeing the same as me. A guy who left to do wing chun has never looked back, for the same reasons...but i know little about wing chun.

Exactly my point ive been doing aikido for two years, three times a week and in your own words, im "just a beginner" "what do you know" thats not good enough for a martial art in my option. I think i kind of knew all this as i was training maybe a year an a half in or something, but you kind of just carry on because you are with friends, and almost feel rude cross training. Im too nice. And i disagree about Aikido working great as a bouncer, in theory its the best martial art for that kind of job. But the speed people attack you, throw punches and fly at you isn't within Aikidos rulebooks i have found. And it just looks pretty on you tube or when someone is running with a fist extended (not a real punch) but not when the split second of a fist is thrown at your nose

Yeh i have excellent self control though, the one thing i do have. In the four months, ive been slapped, punched, stubbed with a cigerette and not hit back, just got to the floor and restrained. CCTV in my town is everywhere, all over the clubs i work. I'm very careful of course some people i work with have a different approach. But thats up to them to face the consequences. I have nothing to prove with people. I just want my money and to go home!

Hi mary, i was told aikido was a self defence martial art. Purely self defence. I must admit i wasn't told i would learn the techniques quickly. I just assumed within at least a year three times a week training, id be able to confidently deal with any attacks with my aikido, and improve from there. No one said to me though "you will be able to use this very quickly" so my mistake there...as i said i should have as others did, left class within a few weeks or months...but im veeery stubborn and kept going for two more years thinking there must be some kind of light coming here...i didnt find it quick enough. So decided to leave.

No advertising, just saying what i feel. I left a religion once and people said similar things. Its very spooky how we get attatched to something so passionately, we almost make it personal to ourselves. Especially when its a martial art. I used to feel the same when everyone attacked Aikido. Its odd, almost cult ish. Ignore the Krav Maga bits then, and focus on what im saying about the actual Aikido.

Ok then i should have come to your Dojo Don. The aikido you are beign taught sounds like the kind of thing i am looking for. But because everyone seems to have a different Aikido. Unless you aikido has a specific name...im back to square one.

Id say one month in and feeling i can do something is brilliant for what ten or so classes? aikido im 2 years in and still dont even "feel" like i could do something. Your questions seem more like attacks and i feel ive touched a nerve. Dont take it personal. You're probably much much better at learning Aikido then i was. Im just sayin how i feel about it and why im choosing another art to try.

As i said before, this video does not look at all like the Aikido ive been taught or the aikido ive viewed on you tube. So.... as for krav having elements of aikido i hope it does. Then my two years wont have been wasted. As for sticking with aikido, i do like it, but im not willing to stick with it any longer to make it effective. id say two years is enough time for it to be at least effective. In my opinion. And it hasn't been effective.

No i dont really know what will suit me better than aikido at this early self discovery stage, your right Larry. Krav seems like a good choice at the moment. But even that may be wrong for me. After all, i thought Aikido was right for me at one stage. But at the moment it is hitting all the buttons. A year 6 months in i may find that its not for me and move on again cool, i may never get there and just end up with a mess of aquired skills. But im brave enough and honest enough to at least admit Aikido (for me) is not effective and im moving on.

As for not being in real life altercations as i said i have been doing the doors five nights a week for a good few months. I wont say where but its not hard to find out right? Anyone who knows that town/area of the UK will understand. Every night is a real life altercation. Granted not every night someone squares off in front of me and starts karate kicking me, but its near enough every OTHER night. Seriously, real life altercations is my job so maybe you didnt read / missed that i am actually a doorman i dunno. Strange one that.

Touched a nerve again? this is all going horribly wrong.

Sorry about the blanket statements but i stress over and over In My Opinion, and My Aikido doesnt work etc etc. I can only say those things so much, you get the point. its from my perspective. Yeah i know i wont get tea and biccies. It's not really nice saying im leaving the art. Almost like im trying to rile people. but this forum above any other forum ive been to has the most mature and honest people so i felt posting something like im leaving the art here would open up interesting debate. And to my suprise. people have actually agreed with me or shared the same feelings. I just imagine had more patience to stick it out. Or have not been in a job or situation to make them sit and think about their own safety.

As i said before, its like the religion thing, being honest about what you do and admitting there are flaws there you try to ignore or block your mind off from asking, can be a bad bad thing. Almost cult-like.

There is an instructor at my dojo who is fantastic and i really admire him. His aikido is fast, swift and i think would be effective in a fair few of the situations i describe. Ive never seen him attacked with anywhere near a real punch etc. But he looks good and his Aikido i think would stand up to brawlers. But he's been doing it for 17 years.

Thanks to those who responded with kind words and support anyway. Sometimes we just need to be honest almost as Kevin Leavitt put it and if its not working, find something that will. Life is too short to spend 5 - 10 years learning a self defence art, when you can learn it in 3-6 months, then improve on whats there. The more i look into this, the more Aikido and the whole thing has really dissapointed me in fact.

But please please no one take anything personally...of course we love our art i understand that. But it is only that...a martial art.
I have one comment that may cover most of the things said here. It comes from my Shihan, who is an 8th dan and has practiced for more than 50 years. He said that O Sensei didn't create Aikido for ordinary people originally. He said that Aikido isn't an art that people coming off the street can walk in and understand. He said that a budo master can understand this art immediately but an ordinary person will have to study for many years before he can even begin to understand it. My teacher went on to explain budo before O Sensei and what O Sensei did that impressed budo masters that saw Aikido for the first time. That is a for a different post. I just think that as I read aikiweb with good people that have self defense concerns, that these words keep coming to my mind. They are from article #2 at
http://www.shudokanaikido.com/module...php?storyid=11

"It is important to ask oneself "What is Aikido?" and develop one's own perspective. If you choose not to fight, then why don't you do that? Searching for ultimate answers like that is a necessity in doing Aikido. Aikido is not Kumiuchi (traditional martial techniques for fighting). If Aikido were like techniques for fighting, the way of practice itself would be totally different. But Aikido practice consists of ways to develop ourselves and each other. Of course, it is not saying that being weak is acceptable — through our experience of strength we are not tempted to fight. A person who has true strength does not fight."

I still think Aikido is suitable for your job but I also think that you lack a basic understanding of what most martial arts are all about. If I were you, I would go study MMA (I'm serious) but even there, you are going to find out why fighting isn't an answer and you may find that out in the emergency room at a hospital. I would switch jobs and maybe read some books on budo like Niklaus Suino's, Budo Mind and Body or Tevor Leggett's, Spirit of Budo. It will give some meaning to your practice and you might enjoy things more and the need to fight at a door can be put on the back burner.
best,
Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 01-01-2008, 12:16 PM   #33
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

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Jorge Garcia wrote: View Post
I agree with Don.

That Krav looked like most of the Aikido on You Tube.
Just to address this because I'm sure it's confusing the original poster. The similarities are on the entries. It's moving of the line to deliver a technique - in this case the technique may be a kick to the sternum rather than an irimi nage - but the concept is similar. The similarities to a 10 year practitioner of Aikido make it look very similar, but to a 2 year practitioner they are likely looking at the end result and saying "but there's not shiho nage, how can you say it's similar..."

It's also similar because it has alot of uke throwing an attack and then waiting for nage to do their turn as part of the training method.

Daniel I suspect that one of the reasons you say aikido isn't working is because when you are in an altercation you don't have the Aikido IA's (immediate actions - entering, stepping off line etc) manifesting themsevles. Given it is those same IA's that people are noticing as being similar in Krav, I'd doubt it will serve you much better...

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-01-2008, 12:18 PM   #34
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Second...Your Aikido Dojo is screwed up... Sounds more like a McDojo to me...
I'd be interested to hear what you base this on? We've seen no footage, not even really discussed the training at Daniel's dojo, what makes you so sure it's different to 90% of the other Aikido dojos?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-01-2008, 12:23 PM   #35
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Michael Fooks wrote:

Quote:
This is one of my biggest beefs with Aikido. And I think it's a fantastic art. But it's not an art that is always honest with people. Sure it teaches effective self defence for the streets in that there are people out there that have used it for just that. But if someone comes in saying that's what they're looking for - there's a bunch of caveats that person should be given in my opinion. But generally they're not.
Not sure what people in other dojo are told or not told as the case may be.

I will tell you the moment I set foot in Saotome Sensei's dojo in Wash DC/Takoma Park MD, it was very clear. In fact there is a great big sign that outlines the rules, etiquette, and the expectations that one can expect of aikido.

In addition, here is an excerpt from the ASU handbook that is given pretty much the very first day.

"Aikido training is to challenge yourself, not the other. You will develop confidence by facing your fears, and negative fighting spirit will become creative fighting spirit. The stress and pressure of serious Aikido training brings this spirit to the surface, exposing it so that it can be examined and refined in a controlled atmosphere of respect and mutual study. Discovering your physical limitations will cause you to reflect on the deepest meanings of harmony and conflict, and to strive for a level of consciousness above the selfish ego, closer to a universal consciousness. "

So to me it was clear...at least from the dojo's perspective.

What was not so clear was my own projections, persceptions, and expectations of aikido. Like many, I tried to make the practice into something that it was not.

Funny how we can be told things, shown things, etc....but we filter out things and only hear or see what we want to!

Not sure if this is true of every dojo, and person...but I think it happens more oft than not!

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Old 01-01-2008, 12:42 PM   #36
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

If you are really interested at getting to the core of things, Aikido, BJJ, Krav Maga...no matter...i'd take a look at some of Tony Blauer's stuff. We are using it in the Army to a degree (coupled with other methodologies of training).

Worth watching this one, and a few others if you are interested in true core of reality, and developing good, sound, basic instincts that are tactical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk_Ai8qT2s4

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 01-01-2008 at 12:42 PM. Reason: fix hyperlink

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Old 01-01-2008, 02:04 PM   #37
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

cheers for that Kevin. I'm sorry to say in my experience alot of dojos aren't as explicit as Saotome's. And even when they are the bigger issue is how do they respond to the question "hey all that self development stuff is great but will it enable me to defend myself".

Re Tony Blauer - read alot about him when he was all over black belt magazine and similar 10-15 years ago and didn't much care for him. Mainly that was based on his excessive use of jargon and acronyms which struck me as an attempt to make the simple sound complex and mystical. Having watched that and other videos linked to it, I'm pretty impressed. It meshes with what I've been thinking as a result of conversations with other coaches and other readings - so thanks for posting it - good stuff!

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:54 PM   #38
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

The choice is yours and if you feel Aikido is not the right choice for you, well I hope you will find the right path that will give you a full satisfaction.

But I want to give you a suggestion, watch out for what you look at on Youtube. I am sure in these 2 years of Aikido you must have read on forums people criticizing Aikido as Martial Art. Demo video are made to attract people and that is not only true for Aikido, that is true for other Martial Arts too. I will give you a little example with the video you posted here...

Many people criticize Aikido for its Randori not being something that can be used in the street (and in a certain degree I agree, no Martial Art in my opinion can keep you alive Vs 3 people together if they well trained). Look at your Krav Maga video, first scene is Vs 3 and just like in many Aikido Demo there is always 1 Uke waiting. Look at the first guy hit by the Krav Maga guy, goes down nice, waits for next hit and goes down again even more. Doesn't that remind a nice video of Aikido where people say Uke go down on their own?
Second, in a good commercial for Krav Maga what best than destroying other Martial Arts? Aikidoka for 2 years I guess you can do a Kotegaeshi. Look at the Kotegaeshi made in that video. Nage gives his back to Uke even before the punch "leaves the base" which will help to the eye of a half experienced MAist to make it appear of poor quality and very not so effective.

If you think Krav Maga is what is right for you I hope you will try it and stick with it for the rest of your life, hoping that Krav is what really will help you for your job. But please practice it before you decide it is right for you just because of a video.
Demo video, of any Martial Art, are made to deliver the principle behind the Art, not to show you what the Art is in its entire.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:10 PM   #39
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
I'd be interested to hear what you base this on? We've seen no footage, not even really discussed the training at Daniel's dojo, what makes you so sure it's different to 90% of the other Aikido dojos?
I am basing my comment completely on Dan's description nothing more... and of course... we both could be wrong.

Now...90% of other Dojo's is also an interesting number and the survey you base this statistic on is....Where?

Gosh Sensei Fooks... You're not suggesting that Aikido is not technically sound as a Martial Art or a system of "Self Defense" are you?

Respectfully,
William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 01-01-2008 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:35 PM   #40
Jeff Sodeman
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Just throwing my 2 cents out.

First, as others have mentioned I also don't think Aikido is for everyone.

That said, I'd hate anyone to judge a martial art, not matter what variety, by their experience under one teacher. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't still be doing Aikido if I'd started in a lot of the dojos out there. I got lucky and as much as I've learned from my teacher, seeing other teachers regulary opens my mind to whole new aspects of Aikido.

People have so many criticisms about Aikido, the way it's taught and practiced, things that aren't included. To most of those I say that they're in the wrong dojo.

I can't argue that Aikido doesn't take time to learn. It's a "-do", a way, and it's subtle on a level that you don't even realized without Years (with a big Y) of practice.

When people come into my dojo and ask me if Aikido works I tell them "I know it works". Why? Because I've used it in fights and it worked so well that I ended up frustrated at not making my attackers pay in pain for what they tried to do (which was an incredible personal lesson). [on a side note: one perk to using aikido was that the police didn't have any problem deciding which person went to jail and which got to go home]

So maybe Aikido is not for you, but after investing two years in something I'd take a look around a bit before leaving Aikido all together to see if maybe you're just not in the right school for your needs.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:58 PM   #41
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
I am basing my comment completely on Dan's description nothing more... and of course... we both could be wrong.

Now...90% of other Dojo's is also an interesting number and the survey you base this statistic on is....Where?

Gosh Sensei Fooks... You're not suggesting that Aikido is not technically sound as a Martial Art or a system of "Self Defense" are you?

Respectfully,
William Hazen
My point was very simple. Dan hasn't talked at all as far as I can see about how Aikido is trained in his club. All he's said is that he hasn't found it useful for him. His dojo is also public record as it's part of his profile.

So what you've done is effectively publically called the Luton Aikido Club a mcdojo where the senior grades are diluting the art based on the fact one particular student, with no more than 2 years training hasn't been using it in bouncing work.

If it were me I would want more evidence before pointing a finger at a particular school and calling it McDojo....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:49 PM   #42
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
My point was very simple. Dan hasn't talked at all as far as I can see about how Aikido is trained in his club. All he's said is that he hasn't found it useful for him. His dojo is also public record as it's part of his profile.

So what you've done is effectively publically called the Luton Aikido Club a mcdojo where the senior grades are diluting the art based on the fact one particular student, with no more than 2 years training hasn't been using it in bouncing work.

If it were me I would want more evidence before pointing a finger at a particular school and calling it McDojo....
Please carefully reread my post and Dan's and pay particular attention to the phrase "sounds like." Niether Dan or I mentioned the Dojo by name. I also "publically stated" that I might be wrong.

If you feel the need to get all hot and bothered over that Well then... Remind me to limit the number of drinks I buy you at the pub. It sounds like you may be the kind of bloke that attracts all sorts of undue attention to yourself.

Now back to your 90% comment... Unless you want to continue to obfuscate it with another attempt to raise additional straw man arguments.

Respectfully,

William Hazen
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:57 PM   #43
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
cheers for that Kevin. I'm sorry to say in my experience alot of dojos aren't as explicit as Saotome's. And even when they are the bigger issue is how do they respond to the question "hey all that self development stuff is great but will it enable me to defend myself".

Re Tony Blauer - read alot about him when he was all over black belt magazine and similar 10-15 years ago and didn't much care for him. Mainly that was based on his excessive use of jargon and acronyms which struck me as an attempt to make the simple sound complex and mystical. Having watched that and other videos linked to it, I'm pretty impressed. It meshes with what I've been thinking as a result of conversations with other coaches and other readings - so thanks for posting it - good stuff!
Obviously I can't speak for the aiki community on how to answer the "big question" that comes up, but I usually start by asking more questions of them rather than answering it.

Questions like, "what do you see is your major risk?" "give me an example of what you are fearing?" "what do you think the odds are of this happening?" "What constraints and limitations do you see in the environment"? all those type of questions.

Usually you find that people have not really thought it through very well, and it is the fear of the "unknown" and vaque "I am in a dark alley with no way out, three guys attacking me, and there is no weapons, or any other thing laying around!"

Anyway, you and I have discussed this in that "other thread" many times! Well worth a read for those that have not read it. (Does aikido does not work in a real fight.)

Tony Blauer. I was not exposed to him 15 years ago, so I cannot say how he was back then. However, we have come a long way in our understanding as a collective community on things martial haven't we! Maybe it took a while to develop his delivery!

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Old 01-01-2008, 05:23 PM   #44
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Hi everyone

Last night i bought in new years eve at the biggest club in my home town, there were nine fights, five resolved easily, door staff there on time, two were physical attacks toward me one backhand as a short guy was walking away and another was an ashtray attack a swipe holding an ashtray. And my Aikido didn't even cross my mind to use, what i'm trying to say is, surely after two years it should have been natural to do at least something? Instead of the rather unsightly grappling, messy but effective takedowns that naturally spring to use.
The thing is, actual combat will always look messy and ill-preformed. No matter what you train and how much you train. This was a point I was trying to make, but forgot to.

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
The AIkido i have been taught and i have been taught by three main instructors at our dojo...who all seem to disagree on certain things (which may have something to do with it i dont know) seems to be uneffective for a job where every night there will potentially be an attack. Erik i dont know how long you've been doing aikido, but say its a year, shouldnt you feel comfortable you could do something? A Thai Boxer whos been attending class three times a week for a year, or a boxer, or a BJJ would be effective...but as Aikidoka most of us after this time are still..."errrr will this work?" which is really really bad if your learning the art purely to defend yourself in a real life situation.
This was something I was trying to get at with my last post. I'll talk about it in a bit.
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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
I think that is it, thats what i feel it is. I started AIkido because i wanted to learn self defence for the streets. This is what i was told i would learn at my dojo, and this is what i read online for the most part. But looking back, it was the wrong art for me, because the self defence it teaches you isn't real and i feel for those wishing to become effective in a short time 6 or so months, definitely not.
Effective is a tricky word. Effective how? I train to be effective against highly trained grappler in a sport competiton. I could say that would make krav maga 100% ineffective. The street really isn't a well defined goal. However, I can totally understand your points on leaving aikido.

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
If i look further into Krav Maga and find its about killing people as fast as possible then i will have made another mistake and keep searching.
I'm sure you will find this to be the goal. Krav was designed for military use. But never look at it as a mistake, only a stop on the path.

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Just at this point it seems like the next natural stop for me. Krav teaches grappling and multiple opponents, where as BJJ is just one opponent. Obviously in a situation with regards to my job i'd need the more than one opponent training.
I'm not a big fan of the whole, we teach multiples training. I have not found any training I've found suitable for this goal. More on that later.
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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Ok then i should have come to your Dojo Don. The aikido you are beign taught sounds like the kind of thing i am looking for. But because everyone seems to have a different Aikido. Unless you aikido has a specific name...im back to square one.
You might be suprised to know that I do not training aikido any longer. I train judo, bjj, and mauy thai. Which of course leads me to my point I have been talking about making.

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Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post
Id say one month in and feeling i can do something is brilliant for what ten or so classes? aikido im 2 years in and still dont even "feel" like i could do something. Your questions seem more like attacks and i feel ive touched a nerve. Dont take it personal. You're probably much much better at learning Aikido then i was. Im just sayin how i feel about it and why im choosing another art to try.
Sorry if you think I am attacking you. But in fact, I'm just using you to spout my propaganda :-)

My point is, that training methods define how useful something is. And that the training methods being shown in that video are no different that 100% of the aikido out there.

In fact, I find those training methods lacking, because they rarely included full on sparing. The reason I said that I know what I can do, is because I actually do it on a nightly basis. I know when i'm out classed, what I can do in a given situation. Sparing as given this to me, so has competition. I can almost look at a person now and size up how they will be in a fight.

So maybe what you are looking for is what you will not find in krav maga. I know I did not find it there. I found more of the same, static repetition without any sparing. Sure it was faster and we hit each other hard, but we were not alive in our practice. It sounds like you know what you want out of your practice, but not how to judge what you are getting out of your practice. I suggest reading aliveness101.blogspot.com or looking up matt thornton on google video or youtube.

Here's a few links to save you time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScOPEO31vmI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_T0WLoI6pk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fUZ8DmmWC0

He changed my outlook on what I was doing and allowed me to evaluate (and actually find a method for evaluating) my training. Maybe it will help you. The reason why I am critical about krav is because all the krav I have seen is no different then all the aikido I've seen. And I of course find a problem with aikido training. I simply think you are switching one training method, for the exact same training method.

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post

There is an instructor at my dojo who is fantastic and i really admire him. His aikido is fast, swift and i think would be effective in a fair few of the situations i describe. Ive never seen him attacked with anywhere near a real punch etc. But he looks good and his Aikido i think would stand up to brawlers. But he's been doing it for 17 years.

Thanks to those who responded with kind words and support anyway. Sometimes we just need to be honest almost as Kevin Leavitt put it and if its not working, find something that will. Life is too short to spend 5 - 10 years learning a self defence art, when you can learn it in 3-6 months, then improve on whats there. The more i look into this, the more Aikido and the whole thing has really dissapointed me in fact.

But please please no one take anything personally...of course we love our art i understand that. But it is only that...a martial art.
My only advice is to take the advice of those who have been down the path and know what is ahead.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-01-2008, 06:43 PM   #45
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Don wrote:

Quote:
He changed my outlook on what I was doing and allowed me to evaluate (and actually find a method for evaluating) my training. Maybe it will help you. The reason why I am critical about krav is because all the krav I have seen is no different then all the aikido I've seen. And I of course find a problem with aikido training. I simply think you are switching one training method, for the exact same training method
I was thinking of providing the same thing on aliveness. Tony Blauer, Matt Thornton...all along the same vein. Matt does a good job of explaining the issue, although I don't think he has the corner on the market nor is he 100% correct, however...it is correct that aliveness needs to be included, and the examples he shows are good ones in the first video.

Looking at the video on Krav, I thought the exact same thing as you Don. "trading one dead form for another". At least at looking at the youtube footage. I saw no aliveness in that video what-so-ever.

That is not to say the Krav is wrong, or not useful....just that, as one poster already pointed out, don't rely on video to make your decisions.

I have worked with some Israeli military when I was in Germany, and what they do is direct and effective for sure. However, I did not find it any better or worse than anything anyone else was doing.

It also highly depends on the instructor to.

Anyway...all good advice to consider.

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Old 01-01-2008, 07:50 PM   #46
DonMagee
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Well, from what I've seen, krav trained by the military is done in a fairly good manner. Krav trained by us normal folks can be trained well, or trained like crap. It all depends on the school. This is one of the things that always gets me. Sport based martial arts are rarely as hit and miss as rbsd arts. They (sport based) has a well defined goal (to be good at the sport) while training skills that lend themselves to self defense. But rbsd arts tend to be based a lot of speculation (in the private sector) without well defined goals. This can lead to great training, or very poor training.

Buyer beware.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:23 PM   #47
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

I agree Don, I think that is because it is hard to define (for civilians) what it is that you would pay money month after month and year after year to sustain a practice based on RBSD!

So you end up with a bunch of "options", kata, techniques that you have to learn and memorize that are progressive in nature and allow you to move up in rank.

Not knocking RBSD training, I do it myself from time to time, but I think it needs to be based on a good foundation dealing with position, balance, and center...core practices.

Hence why so many of us are pro BJJ, Judo, and other grappling sports.

I personally like the "inside/out" approach. That is, you learn to first literally CRAWL and fight from your core on the ground, which teaches you much about center, strength...where and how things work (or don't), then as you get comfortable there, you can progress to further and further distances, weapons and so forth.

This is the exact appproach we are using today in the Army.

This is not the only way...but I like it and it has done good by me so far.

RBSD, or scenario based training is very simple and can really be learned as simple as Tony Blauer puts it...that is why I like his approach to training. If I was spending my hard earned dollars for "down and dirty, i'd spent the couple of thousand that it takes to go through his training and call it a day! or a year for that matter!

Ironically what you will find though is that your base practice comes back to things like judo, greco-roman, boxing, aikido, tai chi, bjj...all things that work on developing core abilities.

How well these arts work for doing that depends on the teacher, I have seen good teachers in all of them (and bad).

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Old 01-02-2008, 08:43 AM   #48
CarlRylander
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

I still don't practice Aikido yet,(guess what, I'm leaving it till I'm 41!)
but I can see what you're getting at.

You might need to use what you've learned one day, though, in your job. You might meet someone who is so dangerous in reputation that it would be unwise to hurt him badly. Then you would use Aikido.

I'm going to mix it in with a bit of Judo,Hapkido and boxing when I do it.

Whenever that is.
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Old 01-02-2008, 09:16 AM   #49
Will Prusner
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Seems to me that effectiveness has more to do with the martial artist, and less with the martial art. Aikido is just another great tool. A hammer sucks at driving screws, but you can't beat it for pounding nails (...except for a nail gun...no, wait, forget I said that, i don't want to go there ).

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:10 AM   #50
James Davis
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

In my humble opinion, aikido is meant for dealing with people that we don't want to hurt. It's great for dealing with Grandpa when he's off his meds and gets violent. It's great for dealing with Uncle Larry when he's drunk. It's great for dealing with a sixteen year old kid who hasn't seen enough injury and death to know how stupid his actions are. With enough practice, aikido gets both parties home alive without injury.

In my albeit limited experience, aikido sensei ask us not to do everything we've been doing all our lives. I knew how to slap the dogs**t out of somebody long before my first tae kwon do class, but I had to work really hard for a long time to learn how to enter without fear.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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