Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-28-2007, 05:20 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Sankyo Armlock

Okay, you win..it's not sankyo.

Throwing that out the window...along with the philosophical stuff about what "should or should not" be happening, and lets focus on what "IS" actually happening.

Roy has affected the center of uke and is controlling it already. He did this pretty much with kotegaeshi and then took uke down and pinned him. Then showed several options in order to further control uke with kimura, sankajo, sankyo...or what ever else you want to call a "bent arm" technique.

It was about the control first and the pain second. Again, it was a demonstration of various options you might have from that position.

The ability or inability to cause pain is always an interesting subject to me.

Why does ikkyo work? (actually mine doesn't so well these days!)

I think ikkyo works only because uke is moving to avoid pain, or the potential of pain. This is why it does not work so well on beginners I am finding today. They don't understand the dynamic of ikkyo so they can learn soon to counteract it! However, through in atemi (pain), then it works.

Nikkyo. Nikkyo only really works, I think, if uke is moving appropriately to avoid pain.

Sankyo. If uke does not back out around his center as you drive through it, well then he gets pain.

Yonkyo. Suprisingly I don't really like the whole radial nerve pressure point thing, but concur that it is best to drive the arm back into uke's center. But what keeps uke in position for you to affect his center? Avoidance of pain.

Same with the rest.

You cannot remove the potential for pain. However, as you state, simple reliance on it is not enough. I agree. Primarily the principle is about controlling center.

This, I believe, was a given in the video. That is center was already controlled.

Quote:
If you lack that particular depth of definition in your technique, whether on the aikido or bjj side, you're not going to be taken seriously by either side.
Depth in definition? Well I tend to let the actions of what I do speak for depth. Either it works or it doesn't work. How serious I am taken is how effective I am at doing whatever it is that I do.

Anyway...

Anyway, pain or the potential to cause it is a motivator.

Okay, now someone will bring up the whole "Guy on PCP argument", and that you need to affect center and not use pain as it will not work.

I would agree! I would also submit that ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo and the rest of what we train for, in principle, will be ignored and you will stand there (or not!) in great suprised at how ineffective you suddenly are!

So, what do we have left. Trying to control center, off balancing etc...all the stuff that we purport to practice in aikido. So while the techniques won't work, the principles behind them will...if you have trained them in the right environment, under the right conditions for a non-compliant uke that refuses to recognize proper ukemi and position to avoid said pain!

That however, begets the whole argument, if I filmed it and put it on YouTube...well, That does not look like Aikido!

Sigh!

So, when your ikkyo is ignored...what do you do? You clinch.

Then you move behind uke and take him down, (iriminage).

then you hold him down there in the ground in some fashion, or you immobilize him in some way so you can move on to whatever else you need to move on to. that might involve handcuffs, pain, or a blood choke. All options depending on the situation.

There is no miraculous bridge between aikido and BJJ.

The only reason we anyone is even remotely interested in the comparison between the two methodologies, is that they approach the same endstate resolution in a different perspectives in methodology.

So, it is important to those that have students in both arts, or to those of us that are trying to develop a breadth of perspective that might shed some light on things that we have not thought of before.

What is suprising to those of us that have and do study both arts, is that we can find similarities in the principles between the two arts. It may not look the same, but principally it is the same.

I was elated the day I figured out that the clinch involves the principle of ikkyo. Guess what, my clinch improved once I started looking at it that way. Same with my ikkyo!

So, it may not look like sankyo, it may not be the way you learned it, or that you may apply it, however, it does not mean that what is being done is NOT principally the same.

I do agree though that if you rely on pain then you are doomed for failure. It is a lesson that is driven home constantly in BJJ. If you do not control your uke in BJJ, you simply are not going to do anything with him. Painful or not.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2007, 05:33 PM   #27
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Sankyo Armlock

Joe,

you asked earlier about the concept of Ikkyo in the guard.

Again, it is conceptual/principal.

In the guard you essentially have someone that is squared off, balanced and focused on your center. Forget for a minute that he is between your legs.

Now in order for you do anything with him, you must move him off center. Sweep, kimura, omaplata...anything.

One way of doing this is to open your guard, and shrimp out to the side. for this example to the right. This effectively moves your center and his is still directed in the same plane. (Irimi). what do you do with your legs? If you are doing it correctly, your right leg is going high into his shoulder along the same line of force as ikkyo. Done correctly, you force uke over and you can continue around to the backside, on to omaplata, or what ever else you had in mind.

It principally is ikkyo. Omaplata is ikkyo done with your leg !

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2008, 12:28 AM   #28
Roy Dean
 
Roy Dean's Avatar
Dojo: Roy Dean Academy
Location: Bend, Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 160
United_States
Offline
Re: Sankyo Armlock

Personally, I try not to get too bogged down in definitions. They are only signposts, symbols, and approximations for the actual. I agree with Kevin in his analysis on BJJ with centerline. And I do think that what I was doing was sankyo, by my definition. In fact, you can see me submitting one of my students with it here, about 3/4 of the way through, in slow motion. It's sankyo to me, although others would simply refer to it as a wristlock.

Discover Who You Are

www.roydeanacademy.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2008, 05:54 PM   #29
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Sankyo Armlock

Roy,

good to hear from you. I am in Lisbon right at this moment. just finished gettting my ass kicked by a great Italian purple belt.

I had a pretty darn good defense, but now that I am at Purple belt, it is a whole nother level. Have to work on that offense! His game was so tight, that I had no openings for sweeps or submissions.

It was fun though! Oh yea...no opportunities for sankyo either! Although I did try and omaplata which really is sankyo right???

Anyway, look forward to the video!

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 02:57 PM   #30
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Sankyo Armlock

Hello Roy,

Is there any update on when this video will be out?
I believe it was supposed to be out this past spring?

Looked at your website and did not see it in the DVD section.

Peace

dAlen

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

Art
http://www.lightofinfinity.org

Philosophical
http://dalen7.wordpress.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2008, 01:40 AM   #31
Al Gutierrez
Location: Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 39
United_States
Offline
Re: Sankyo Armlock

Roy,

Kudos to you for showing some BJJ ground moves to aikidoka. Is there going to be any aikido in this dvd that will be beneficial to a BJJ player?

I personally think it's one thing to add BJJ ground moves and skills to aikido, but it's quite another thing to really do aikido against a BJJ player. Will this dvd show any aikido moves or counters against someone who's pulling guard, or a grappler who's shooting for a single or double?

Al Gtz.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2008, 11:25 AM   #32
Roy Dean
 
Roy Dean's Avatar
Dojo: Roy Dean Academy
Location: Bend, Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 160
United_States
Offline
Re: Sankyo Armlock

Although I originally planned to release the DVD in spring, it will now be released in November. I focused my efforts on getting the 2 DVD set BJJ Blue Belt Requirements out to the market instead, and I'm happy to say it's been quite successful.

My original vision on the Aikido DVD has expanded to a 2 disc set, covering the major techniques of Aikido, and variations with Japanese and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu influence. Also included will be the Aikido and BJJ seminar and a module on wristlocks for groundfighting. You will not be disappointed!

Discover Who You Are

www.roydeanacademy.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2008, 08:22 PM   #33
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Sankyo Armlock

Having reviewed Roy's BJJ Blue Belt video, I highly recommend it Aikidoka that are looking for a good primer on BJJ. There are some good basics on the DVD. Roy is a technician that very logically and methodically shows you "how to". There is a very good section on Ukemi and also Takedowns as well.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2008, 01:30 PM   #34
KIT
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
Offline
Re: Sankyo Armlock

Having had the opportunity to meet him at the recent Lobo Academy opening out here, and sneak some rolling in with him on a break, I would add that he's a really nice guy and more than willing to hit the mats as well - Roy is the real deal.

Dude took me to school and we had a lot fun.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alternative Method fo Sankyo Mike Haftel Techniques 30 07-13-2007 08:29 AM
sankyo John Matsushima Techniques 26 04-14-2007 09:49 AM
Little Help Here...Sankyo kroh Techniques 3 01-18-2006 03:34 PM
traditional yokomenuchi sankyo rob_liberti Techniques 11 12-13-2004 11:18 AM
One class in the life of...(Photographed Edition) Veers General 14 07-16-2003 11:25 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:54 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate