Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-21-2007, 01:33 PM   #26
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
Canada
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Basically. Or a visit to any gym that competes in something you're not good at works just fine.

Rarely that happens in Aikido, which is why the constant "Quest for humility" involves years of dojo attendance and wordwide seminar traveling.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 01:53 PM   #27
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Or in my case, going up against the local forth dans in the aikido dojo does it too!

B,
R (and Happy Holidays to all)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 02:12 PM   #28
Roman Kremianski
Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
Canada
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

"Going up" against local forth dans? Like challenging them to a compliant kata fight?

Don't quite understand what you mean.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 02:26 PM   #29
Joseph Madden
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 160
Canada
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

At the Yoshinkai dojo, its slightly different. Kimeda Sensei isn't that deeply into the philosophical aspects, "quest for humility" that Roman pointed out so succinctly. He was just mentioning today during class the importance of meditation could be for some people, but while he was an uchi deshi at the Honbu most students were told that kind of meditation was a waste of time (with regards to training with sword). It was only years later that he started his training in iaido and that meditation become important to him, but only for that particular art.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 02:29 PM   #30
Joseph Madden
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 160
Canada
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
In regards to the following post: I by no means hold a degree in Psychology, nor have I ever majored in it.

I think the whole "Getting rid of your ego" argument is parallel to the similar recent "Getting rid of pain" debate. It was said that eliminating the feeling of pain was not a good idea, because it is there for a reason. I believe the same can be said about ego.

People shouldn't work to completely degrade and humble themselves in order to extinguish whatever ego they think they have. People will always in my opinion (an opinion based purely on the experiences of dealing with people) have some form of ego, because it's required. Without ego, people would not strive to get further in their careers or work to improve their physical shape or even pursue the opposite sex.

An overgrown ego is a problem. Everybody has a standard ego. Getting rid of an overgrown ego is quite easy.
Excellent points Roman. Especially about the overgrown ego.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 03:41 PM   #31
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
"Going up" against local forth dans? Like challenging them to a compliant kata fight?

Don't quite understand what you mean.
Of course you don't. You don't train where I do and you don't know me, so you have no frame of reference.

You'll just have to take my word for it (or not), that when I (a [bad] ex-wrestler) go hell bent for leather after the fourth dans, and they handle me, I be handled. It's no skin off my back if you accept it or not. I don't know you, so I have nothing to prove to you.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 05:12 PM   #32
Joseph Madden
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 160
Canada
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Ron,
Roman is now studying MMA (I know from your recent posts you have a soft spot in your heart for MMA as well), so he's a little wary of people who say aikido is hard core. Try not to take everything he says as a personal affront. I've had the opportunity to be concussed by a few upper dans as well in my day. It all depends on where you train.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 09:06 PM   #33
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,212
United_States
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Quote:
Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
Why do some sensei have a reputation for being the best? Why do some students travel the wide world over seeking out certain teachers for that summer training seminar? Why are these students seemingly wasting their time when they only get to train with their "heroes" for mere moments? Why this cult of personality? Am I missing something?
I think the short answer is that charisma affects people pretty heavily...we're social animals after all, the tendancy is to form groups around people who seem to benefit us. The higher the charisma (and its exposure) the more people there are who are likely to be found in some given group. Mix that with the teacher-student dynamic (which tends to place the teacher above the student) and someone with strong charisma is going to seem rather lofty. The good and bad of this is entirely unique from situation to situation.

Quote:
What do you think? Are there teachers who have the gift and the others are merely pretenders to the throne? Is there an aura of invincibility that guides students like moths to the flame (like blue hairs to Elvis)?
Yes, this exists...it's everywhere; not just martial arts. I would say these behaviors aren't so much a Martial Art trait as they are a human one.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2007, 09:17 PM   #34
Joseph Madden
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 160
Canada
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Thanks for the opinion Matthew.

OSU
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2007, 11:20 AM   #35
Christopher Gee
 
Christopher Gee's Avatar
Dojo: United Traditional Aikido
Location: Somerset
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 57
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Budo, is budo, is budo!

Ultimately, I've found, its easy to be complacent. Dont rely on anyone to guide you to mastery, its your responsbility to perfect your budo. Or atleast, thats the attitude I take.

I became a fully paid up, t-shirt wearing member of a personality cult.... twice. I so wanted to be shown the way by a wise learned master. The more I read about the masters of the past, the true masters, they took THEMSELVES off to the mountains to train. Musuashi teachs about the way of self reliance in the Go rin no sho. That is something that has seriously touched my practice.

The train axiom on 'SHIN-KEN' - training with the upmost earnest,if those around you are content to chat about thier children, about how kote gaeshi really works, how its YOUR fault their techniques dont work, dont be taken in.

SHIN-KEN!

Yoroshiku Onegaeshimasu

Heiho wa heiho nari - Otake Risuke
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2007, 01:57 PM   #36
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

There is budo...then there is "other stuff" that gets past off as budo.

There are also budoka, and those that "think" there budoka.

There are dojos in which budo is practiced...and within those dojos, right beside people that are practicing budo...there are those that "think" they are doing the same thing, but they are not.

There are people that think that they are far removed from budo...yet they are easily recognized by others that they are indeed practicing budo.

There are those that have never heard of the word, yet they are still budoka.

There are those that go to the same seminar for entirely different reasons, and get entirely different things out of the seminar.

Not to argue...but philosophically, I don't think budo is budo!

There is good budo and bad budo. Sometimes it is hard to tell, even when you think you are on the path...you need someone to pull you back on the path, to say WAKE UP!

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2007, 02:52 AM   #37
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 434
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Two very large violent guys, or two of her very large students?
Just confused as to whether this was a demonstration in a dojo or an incident involving her sitting down at a bar....
Heh. We can guess the truth of that one, you tinker.
I don't think barstools and beer were involved.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2007, 07:07 AM   #38
Avery Jenkins
 
Avery Jenkins's Avatar
Dojo: Litchfield Hills Aikikai
Location: Litchfield, CT
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 139
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Two things:

Certainly, a few short hours with another sensei would on the surface seem insufficient. But a couple of times, I've picked up a nice trick or two that I would have never gotten any other way.

Also, at a seminar, I'm often training with students of the sensei teaching it. So, by extension, every pair-up becomes a piece of learning from that sensei.

Finally, being chucked about by anyone outside of your home dojo can provide valuable learning, as others have mentioned.

Avery Jenkins
www.docaltmed.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2007, 08:24 AM   #39
RoyK
Dojo: Nishin Kan
Location: Herzliya
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 171
Israel
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

There are also budoka, and those that "think" there budoka.
Am I a budoka? Are you?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2007, 12:14 PM   #40
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

I tend to think I am, but there are others that may not see me that way. Somedays I may be, somedays I might not be.

I certainly do things, or don't do things that cause me to not be a good one.

Delusion and being aware of it is what is key, I think. Not whether you are or aren't at any particular time.

It is more than wearing a hakama, the number of practices you go, the t-shirt you purchase, the number of minutes you meditate, or all that.

The important thing is not necessarily the answer to the question, or the attachment of the "Good Budoka Seal of Approval (tm)"...but the fact that you have questions and are honestly looking for the answers I think.

I have an affinity towards the label of budoka, and I'd like to think of myself as a budoka for sure!

I didn't mean to make the statement in a judgemental way to imply that I am a judge of who is and who isn't a budoka....

Only meant it to be a "thinking statement", to consider and ponder introspectively.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2007, 04:12 PM   #41
RoyK
Dojo: Nishin Kan
Location: Herzliya
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 171
Israel
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Only meant it to be a "thinking statement", to consider and ponder introspectively.
This seems to be slightly off topic so I'll have to make do with agreeing and thanking you for clarifying what you had in mind.

On topic, I I know from other sports I participate or have participated in, that charisma is not enough to make up for obviously inferior skills in order to create a group of participants around someone. However, in most martial arts and Aikido in particular, I find that it's hard to tell apart between genuine skill and showmanship, and even a skilled instructor may not be martially effective. Perhaps that's why the martial arts field seems more susceptible to personality cults?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2007, 04:44 PM   #42
Joseph Madden
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 160
Canada
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Excellent points Roy. Sometimes you need to be on the receiving end of one sensei to know if he/she has the ability and is not merely performing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2007, 08:58 PM   #43
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,803
United_States
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Me? No budoka.
Just an old man having a good time.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2007, 09:50 PM   #44
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I tend to think I am, but there are others that may not see me that way. Somedays I may be, somedays I might not be.

I certainly do things, or don't do things that cause me to not be a good one.
Kevin, if you jettisoned the vaguely defined Japanese terminology, what word would you use instead?

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2007, 11:57 PM   #45
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

I agree Roy. good points concerning accountability and martial effectiveness. However, what gets really interesting is this....

How do you define martial effectiveness???

I think this is the real key issue we grapple with. Many different definitions and perspectives on this topic. Enough to create a wide berth of what people are doing. Enough to sustain the threads in aikiweb for years to come!

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 12:02 AM   #46
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Josh,

If I had to get rid of the term budoka?

Well I guess that term would be warrior.

Again, a word the conjures up many emotions and meanings.

We have in the Army what we call Warrior Ethos. I think that phrase sums it up nicely.

take a look at our sexy website...you will see a common thread between what we are talking about.

http://www.army.mil/warriorethos/

We are putting a great deal of emphasis on this today in the Army.

While this is an Army thing....I think it resonates true even within the civilian world, and applies equally to budo or budoka.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 01:17 AM   #47
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

What you're looking for...You already have...If you must travel the world to find it...So what? Who am I to question your path?

Sheesh...Some folks here should spend a little more time understanding themselves and thier motives for practice before they give an opinion of someone elses practice...

If I had the chance would I travel the world for a chance to practice with the best teachers?

Hell Ya!!! LOL

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 06:19 AM   #48
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,342
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Me? No budoka.
Just an old man having a good time.
We are not old, Lynn.....they say that 50 is the new thirty.
Mary
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 06:41 AM   #49
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,224
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Age should always be taken into consideration. There are 60 and 70 year olds that face obstacles that we never knew existed. Theirs is a kind of aikido that we can look forward to.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 07:28 AM   #50
Avery Jenkins
 
Avery Jenkins's Avatar
Dojo: Litchfield Hills Aikikai
Location: Litchfield, CT
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 139
Offline
Re: The aura of invincibility and the cult of personality

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

We have in the Army what we call Warrior Ethos. I think that phrase sums it up nicely.

take a look at our sexy website...you will see a common thread between what we are talking about.

http://www.army.mil/warriorethos/

We are putting a great deal of emphasis on this today in the Army.

While this is an Army thing....I think it resonates true even within the civilian world, and applies equally to budo or budoka.
Thanks for the link, Kevin. The Warrior Ethos really boils it down to the essentials, doesn't it? And, as a civilian, I agree that it does, indeed, resonate.

Avery Jenkins
www.docaltmed.com
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:44 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate