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Old 04-23-2002, 11:48 PM   #1
travellingmonk
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yoshinkai vs aikikai

Can someone please tell me what the difference is between aikikai and yoshinkai styles?
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Old 04-23-2002, 11:57 PM   #2
Edward
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The simplest answer would be that Yoshinkai represents Osensei style in the 1940' in his most vigorous days, while Aikikai style dates in the 1960' at his latest development period.

I myself am Aikikai but I am an admirer of Shioda Sensei's Aikido.

Last edited by Edward : 04-24-2002 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 04-24-2002, 12:39 AM   #3
MaylandL
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you might find this website useful...assuming that you havent already looked at it

http://www.aikidofaq.com/introduction.html#12

Hope this helps

Mayland
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Old 04-24-2002, 02:33 AM   #4
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
The simplest answer would be that Yoshinkai represents Osensei style in the 1940' in his most vigorous days, while Aikikai style dates in the 1960' at his latest development period.

I myself am Aikikai but I am an admirer of Shioda Sensei's Aikido.
Of course, most of the things that make Yoshinkan distinctive were developed well after the war - the Yoshinkan wasn't even established until 1955. Further, Morihiro Saito, who quite arguably spent the most time training alone with M. Ueshiba in the 1960's, claims that what M. Ueshiba was teaching at Iwama in that decade most closely resembles the photographs in "Budo", published by M. Ueshiba in 1938.

I think that it would be more accurate to say that Yoshinkan is a presentation of Gozo Shioda's ideas about Aikido training.

OTOH, the question of "what is Aikikai" is a tough one since "Aikikai" isn't a style, it's an umbrella organization that covers a large array of sometimes greatly differing styles. You might say that Aikikai is a large group of differing styles centered loosely around K. Ueshiba's (and now, Moriteru's) ideas about Aikido training.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-24-2002, 04:14 AM   #5
justinm
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simple view

Having done around 5 years in both, I would say that Yoshinkan aikido focuses more on your own body while Aikikai focuses more on your partner's.

A simplistic view, but certainly my experience.

ustin
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Old 04-24-2002, 06:05 AM   #6
Nathan Pereira
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Having trained many years in Yoshinkan and seen and experienced quite a bit of Aikikai I would say not alot of difference in "the end".

The main difference is how they get there ie the teaching methods.

A good teacher is more important than style.


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Old 04-24-2002, 09:19 AM   #7
Keith R Lee
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Smile Difference

Aikikai people like to talk more?

JOKING, joking everyone! In all seriousness though, in the Aikikai schools I have visited the atmosphere seems more open to discussing techniques, while Yoshinkai schools tend to have the attitude of "Just do it." Neither way is superior/better, just different.

I agree with Justin's point as well. A little simplistic, but fairly accurate I would say. Also, where I think Aikikai people are more likely to talk about "ki", Yoshinkai folks are more prone to discuss "shuchu ryoku."

Mostly I agree with Nathan where he stated:
Quote:
A good teacher is more important than style.
This is the best advice I think that can be given to anyone who is looking to start any martial art.

Osu,

Keith Lee
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Old 04-24-2002, 10:11 AM   #8
Jim23
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When I asked that question a while back, I was told that in Aikikai, at first you learn by moving quickly while not worrying too much about the technical details (which come eventually), while in Yoshinkan, you first learn the technical details, step by step, not worrying too much about speed (which comes eventually).

(Is this true? I've never seen an Aikikai class.)

Of course, there's much more that just that, including the "just do it".

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 04-24-2002, 10:53 AM   #9
sceptoor
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23
When I asked that question a while back, I was told that in Aikikai, at first you learn by moving quickly while not worrying too much about the technical details (which come eventually), while in Yoshinkan, you first learn the technical details, step by step, not worrying too much about speed (which comes eventually).

(Is this true? I've never seen an Aikikai class.)

Of course, there's much more that just that, including the "just do it".

Jim23
Again, it depends on the teachers. I'm Aikikai(ASU), and I have 4 different regular sensei, (one having a few years in Yoshinkan before coming to the Aikikai, the other three all began with and are still in ASU), and each sensei has their own way of teaching. The above description regarding details and speed is a crude one and wrong in my case. It seems all my sensei pay very close attention to detail, fundamantals, center, some even focus on atemi, etc., and all agree that speed will eventually come with practice practice practice as our understanding of the technique becomes clearer and our movement becomes smoother and sharper, AND of course the gradual recognition that our strength does not come from our upper body but our center, center, center. I've NEVER had a sensei that focused on speed before detail. That concept wouldn't make sense to me, I would think it would make for sloppy technique if one does not learn fundamantals, connection, proper off-balancing THROUGHOUT the technique, etc. I just do not see how speed can come before those things.

How's your training coming along Jim23??? Have you been to any seminars?? Is Aikido still "not effective"??(Man, you can just hear the can opener)

Happy training!!

C. Martin

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Old 04-24-2002, 11:58 AM   #10
Bruce Baker
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Shioda verses K. Ueshiba?

If we go to the video of the teachers, there is only a slight difference.

If we go to the book, there is a big difference.

If we go to the video's ...

You decide.

For years, my training of karate was the static drill with a flowing Chinese sparring when actually used? Aikido eventually is flowing, sometimes with static stops to let motion continue or change.

If you harmonize with the motion of your partner/opponent does it really make a difference if it is Aikikai or Yoshinkan?

Of course the attitude of your teacher may be the difference?

Is that what we are really talking about?

Oh, well ...
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Old 04-24-2002, 01:49 PM   #11
Jim23
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Quote:
Originally posted by sceptoor


Again, it depends on the teachers. I'm Aikikai(ASU), and I have 4 different regular sensei, (one having a few years in Yoshinkan before coming to the Aikikai, the other three all began with and are still in ASU), and each sensei has their own way of teaching. The above description regarding details and speed is a crude one and wrong in my case. It seems all my sensei pay very close attention to detail, fundamantals, center, some even focus on atemi, etc., and all agree that speed will eventually come with practice practice practice as our understanding of the technique becomes clearer and our movement becomes smoother and sharper, AND of course the gradual recognition that our strength does not come from our upper body but our center, center, center. I've NEVER had a sensei that focused on speed before detail. That concept wouldn't make sense to me, I would think it would make for sloppy technique if one does not learn fundamantals, connection, proper off-balancing THROUGHOUT the technique, etc. I just do not see how speed can come before those things.

How's your training coming along Jim23??? Have you been to any seminars?? Is Aikido still "not effective"??(Man, you can just hear the can opener)

Happy training!!
I hate it when you criticize my sensei, after all, he was the one told me that. Anyway, like I said, I admit I don't know much about aikikai training methods - I prefer to *cough* master one style, than be a Jack of ... never mind.

When did I say that aikido isn't effective? ... I just said that your aikido ... just kidding again (but you knew that). I was actually refering to certain aspects of aikido, which may or may not be widespread.

Jim

PS: now that we're friends, you don't have to include my surname

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 04-25-2002, 03:50 AM   #12
Nathan Pereira
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As you can see[for once] everyone is pretty much agreeing and on the money.

I as I said practice Yoshinkan and for "me" this works. I think the main difference is as someone has already stated is Aikikai is not really a style so teaching methods can vary fairly widely whereas Yoshinkan has a very standardized teaching method/process. This means you can train in any true Yoshinkan dojo in the world and all lessons and teaching frame work will very very similar.

Yoshinkan is if you like taught in a more similar way to perhaps you may think of something like Karate being taught. There is a very great emphasise on our basic movements [kata]and a huge one on posture. Intially basic techniques are taught step by step[kata]and this way of training never really leaves you. It is felt that by breaking down the smallest movements in a technique and refining them when they are put together as a whole the technique should be fairly exact in its execution. Flow is learnt but in my experience much latter than in other forms of Aikido. Again a simple comparision I like to make is in boxing, you cannot learn to throw combinations of punches if you cannot stand correctly and know each indvidual punch first.

This adhereing to repetative basics and performing maybe only one part of a technique over and over seems like overkill to the outsider but it is this constant drilling that makes movements become second nature and makes the body relax and natural in its movements[eventually].

This method obviously does not suit everyone and though it has its merits like anything there can be negatives in that the some students [and teachers]never really make the next step to the flowing technique. Their Aikido will be very strong but quite static.

In the Aikikai that I have done/seen I have seen it taught very much like Yoshinkan and also completely opposite of Yoshinkan. In these cases I felt it is most telling to look at the students rather than the teacher to see which is having results. In the Aikikai that I trained in the teacher was extrodinary with really beautiful flowing,powerful Aikido but he could not pass this to his students who were only trying to copy him so had bent backs no awareness of the power in their hips,legs and arms moving in different directions and no understanding of the basic elements of what they were trying to achieve.This also happens in Yoshinkan but very rarely. The more likely situation is an average Aikidoka but a good teacher.

I think neither is perfect and in my dojo when we train at events with other styles our teacher tells the less experienced students that you will see things done differently but don't focus on this but look for the similarities through all Aikido. This for me is what all Aikido is about the similarites. Different paths up the mountain.

I hope this sheds further light on Yoshinkan.
To finish I will again say choose the teacher not the art/style.


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Old 04-25-2002, 06:25 AM   #13
Kenn
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JIM 23!!!,

Welcome back. Haven't seen your posts on here for quite a while. Back to mix things up again? lol Again, welcome back.

Kenn

Kenn

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Old 04-25-2002, 12:55 PM   #14
Chocolateuke
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Pereira
As you can see[for once] everyone is pretty much agreeing and on the money.

I as I said practice Yoshinkan and for "me" this works. I think the main difference is as someone has already stated is Aikikai is not really a style so teaching methods can vary fairly widely whereas Yoshinkan has a very standardized teaching method/process. This means you can train in any true Yoshinkan dojo in the world and all lessons and teaching frame work will very very similar.

Yoshinkan is if you like taught in a more similar way to perhaps you may think of something like Karate being taught. There is a very great emphasise on our basic movements [kata]and a huge one on posture. Intially basic techniques are taught step by step[kata]and this way of training never really leaves you. It is felt that by breaking down the smallest movements in a technique and refining them when they are put together as a whole the technique should be fairly exact in its execution. Flow is learnt but in my experience much latter than in other forms of Aikido. Again a simple comparision I like to make is in boxing, you cannot learn to throw combinations of punches if you cannot stand correctly and know each indvidual punch first.

This adhereing to repetative basics and performing maybe only one part of a technique over and over seems like overkill to the outsider but it is this constant drilling that makes movements become second nature and makes the body relax and natural in its movements[eventually].

This method obviously does not suit everyone and though it has its merits like anything there can be negatives in that the some students [and teachers]never really make the next step to the flowing technique. Their Aikido will be very strong but quite static.

In the Aikikai that I have done/seen I have seen it taught very much like Yoshinkan and also completely opposite of Yoshinkan. In these cases I felt it is most telling to look at the students rather than the teacher to see which is having results. In the Aikikai that I trained in the teacher was extrodinary with really beautiful flowing,powerful Aikido but he could not pass this to his students who were only trying to copy him so had bent backs no awareness of the power in their hips,legs and arms moving in different directions and no understanding of the basic elements of what they were trying to achieve.This also happens in Yoshinkan but very rarely. The more likely situation is an average Aikidoka but a good teacher.

I think neither is perfect and in my dojo when we train at events with other styles our teacher tells the less experienced students that you will see things done differently but don't focus on this but look for the similarities through all Aikido. This for me is what all Aikido is about the similarites. Different paths up the mountain.

I hope this sheds further light on Yoshinkan.
To finish I will again say choose the teacher not the art/style.
wow! good i was going to say some of that ! Just my two cents! JK

Dallas Adolphsen
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Old 04-25-2002, 02:57 PM   #15
REK
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There is an interesting parallel b/n Nathan's experience in two "styles" of aikido and mine in two styles of karate. Shotokan was analogous to the Yoshinkan, and Goju-Ryu analogous to aikikai. It's interesting to me that I preferred the Shotokan to Goju based on the instructor, as well.

I deviated from that pattern in Aikido. I practice Aikikai, based on local instruction. Funny how things work out.

Rob

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Old 04-26-2002, 03:06 AM   #16
Nathan Pereira
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Funny you should say that Rob about Shotokan and Yoshinkan as I was going to make that more specific comparision but didn't want some Shotokan guy jumping down my throat and saying how dare you compare the two.


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Old 04-26-2002, 07:22 AM   #17
REK
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Nathan,

No sweat. I have none of my own ego invested in Shotokan. I loved my training, but I remain open to other teachings and points of view. At this point, I regret not having more experience with Goju, Shito or Wado ryu.
Or Yoshinkan for that matter. No one has the patent on the ultimate truth.

Rob

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Old 04-26-2002, 10:46 AM   #18
Kenn
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[QUOTENo one has the patent on the ultimate truth.

Rob [/b][/quote]

Psssssssst, Rob, I do, for a small fee I'll let you in on it.

Peace, Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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