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Old 12-12-2007, 02:51 AM   #26
Amir Krause
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Great.

The attackers.
First off, the attackers (the unarmed mob) don't react to any damage they might receive from the weapon because that makes the practice harder. It's hard to guess at what kind of damage you might inflict on a cut, and hard to guess how different people will react to it. Some people receive lots of damage and keep coming, others get a paper cut and go home. So in the practice we make it a worse case scenario.

They do try to treat the knife as if it's real, but they also have an objective to achive-take the armed man down. doing it without getting cut/stabbed is the objective, but that objective is very hard.
My problem is with the part I placed in bold. When looking at the video, the attackers did not seem to care at all about being stabed.
When approaching a person with a knife, most people I have heard of would be very careful, and even frightened. The knife would create a space around it (you can even see it in planned and well reharsed demos done with a real blade - people grasp the real danger of errors and behave differently.

Every other impression I may have had is clouded by this issue.

Further, most trainees hardly seems to try and do anythong against their attackers, at most they resist passivly. It seems like they are not ready yet for the chalenge of being rushed by so many people in such confined space (a very difficult challenge). Practicing with resistence and scenarios is great, but it should be done in the right develpmental stages of your students (rather then you).
If you wish to keep this route, aI suggest to adjust the level to one your studnets can succeed with, at reasonalble levels for a learning process to occur (~3/4).

Amir
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Old 12-12-2007, 03:38 AM   #27
Michael Douglas
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
Please tell me your dojo isn't inside someone's garage
Hey! I like his dojo. Homely. Not intimidating, like you're not going to be scared of scratching the lovely polished decor with a stray bokken. I'd improve it by fixing thin mats to two walls to allow safer collisions in this type of training.

I'd also like to apologise to Chris for my first post in this thread, I sounded too harsh and I didn't mean to be.

An improvement to the training would be to use it as an opportunity NOT for the unarmed guys to try to do aikido to the knifeman, but rather for the knifeman to train his knife attacks with a mind to using aikido to retain control if he is grabbed by his victims. Think about what Ueshiba or Takeda might do in this training situation. (Spill some blood?)
I'd show you what I mean but I'm not local enough.

Oh, one more thing : the unarmed guys who aren't holding onto the knife-arm might want to concentrate on chokes and koshinage?

Last edited by Michael Douglas : 12-12-2007 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:08 AM   #28
MM
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
Since it is so easy to be fatally wounded in knife attacks, and most people realize this, it is not likely that even a group of unarmed people will be willing to attack someone waving a knife at them. Why, then, would I engage in a practice that is based on such an unlikely situation? What's wrong with practicing blending and flowing without a knife? What specific benefit does the introduction of the knife into the situation offer to the development of blending?
Jon.
Why engage in that practice? Because if you're going to use a knife, you should engage in flow drills. This is just one such type of training. To use a knife, you should practice. In fact, I've read that some koryu had kata where nage/tori was armed and *won* the encounter against an unarmed uke. So, IMO, the practice is valid technically.

Mark
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:10 AM   #29
dps
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
Please tell me your dojo isn't inside someone's garage
Hey Pierre look where these guy's dojo is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyWmfGE9QtI

David
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:29 AM   #30
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote: View Post
That and your earlier comment about always carrying some sort of weapon has just placed you on my ignore list.

I know a fifth dan in Japan who teach in his 10-tatami living room; there can be up to 14 people at any one time.
When I said I carry something with me doesn't necessarily mean that Im carrying a switchblade or a tanto. It could be a pen or a pencil or at most an exacto knife that I use for work. Your perception of a weapon may be different than mine. Still havent figured out how to use car keys as weapons yet

As far as my dojo comment, I meant that in a light hearted sense. I try to be funny with my posts but I guess I screwed up. Sorry meant no disrespect.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:30 AM   #31
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Hey Pierre look where these guy's dojo is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyWmfGE9QtI

David
Thats awesome. Live blades? I thought that was taboo.

I repeat, my dojo comment was made in jest meant no disrespect.

Last edited by Pierre Kewcharoen : 12-12-2007 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:55 AM   #32
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
When I said I carry something with me doesn't necessarily mean that Im carrying a switchblade or a tanto. It could be a pen or a pencil or at most an exacto knife that I use for work. Your perception of a weapon may be different than mine. Still havent figured out how to use car keys as weapons yet

As far as my dojo comment, I meant that in a light hearted sense. I try to be funny with my posts but I guess I screwed up. Sorry meant no disrespect.
..and I over-reacted. My apologies as well. Harmony has been restored.
*aaaaaoooouuuummmmmmmm*

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Old 12-12-2007, 09:50 AM   #33
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

A lot of what we are doing is pretty radical, I understand the harsh reactions.

I must say though the people over at bullshido didn't seem quite as venomous as the people here on aikiweb. Or maybe I just expected it over there...

Thanks for your input though!

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Old 12-12-2007, 10:16 AM   #34
ChrisMoses
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Hey Pierre look where these guy's dojo is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyWmfGE9QtI

David
Unless that's not actually the link you meant, that's not a dojo, it's a demo. Little bit different. Lots of demos are done in public places (probably not many done at record stores though..).

Chris Moses
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:24 AM   #35
dps
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Unless that's not actually the link you meant, that's not a dojo, it's a demo. Little bit different. Lots of demos are done in public places (probably not many done at record stores though..).
Yes, I know it was a demo. I was joking with Pierre about his garage comment, but he has apologized now.

I have known some people who have run martial art schools where ever they can, it is not the building it is the people practicing together that make a dojo.

My home dojo (during the summer only). http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1553

David

Last edited by dps : 12-12-2007 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:32 AM   #36
ChrisMoses
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
A lot of what we are doing is pretty radical, I understand the harsh reactions.
It's not radical in any sense of the word that I can think of. It does seem misguided. I say that as someone who has no stake at all in preserving the mainline/party line of the Aikikai or any of the other organizations in the US. Where I train now, we do a good amount of tantojutsu and have various methods for training in less structured environments. In my sword line we also have non-kata practices to help demonstrate the difficulty and messy-ness of training when things aren't choreographed. Notice I'm not using the term 'freestyle' because almost any training method has some rules that govern the encounter.

Here's what I think you're missing. These less-structured training exercises need to serve to enhance ones understanding of how the art is studied in its more structured aspects (whether that be kata or whatever you would call the 'normal' keiko we see in aikido). What it looks like you are doing, is creating a rule set, and then just experimenting. Not only that, but you are allowing some obviously very inexperienced folkes to take part in that experimentation. It's clear from the videos that they lack the basic understanding and martial skill to really benefit from these exercises. Thus the blind leading the blind comments.

If you were interested in a training methodology for using the knife to study the principles and movements of aikido, you could do a lot worse than finding a Shodokan/Tomiki instructor. They have spent decades developing this system.

I can't help but think of the shu-ha-ri training paradigm that so many in kendo are familiar with. From your comments and videos over the years, it's pretty clear to me that you left your old instructor as you enterd the ha phase of your training. You now seem to approach your training as if you were in your ri phase and you have thrown your 'students' into that phase as well. IMHO, this is very unfortunate.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-12-2007, 05:01 PM   #37
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

[quote=Roman Naly;195604]
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
"There is no striking allowed in this practice, "

Why?
If you are going to do anything worth while in the way of knife defense, striking has to be the essential component.

As for the video, I have no idea what is being taught... The guy with the knife is being taught to hesitate and be defensive when, in fact, he has the advantage of holding the deadly weapon. He should be initiating.

The "attackers" are basically being taught to sacrifice themselves by swarming the knife holder, seemingly on the assumption that they can over whelm him before he can kill them all. Probably true but a bit kami kaze for my taste.

This just isn't good training no matter how you look at it. What is being imprinted with this exercise is all the wrong stuff.

As Bodhidharma once said, "No merit!"

George S. Ledyard
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Old 12-12-2007, 05:31 PM   #38
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post

If you are going to do anything worth while in the way of knife defense, striking has to be the essential component.

As for the video, I have no idea what is being taught... The guy with the knife is being taught to hesitate and be defensive when, in fact, he has the advantage of holding the deadly weapon. He should be initiating.

The "attackers" are basically being taught to sacrifice themselves by swarming the knife holder, seemingly on the assumption that they can over whelm him before he can kill them all. Probably true but a bit kami kaze for my taste.

This just isn't good training no matter how you look at it. What is being imprinted with this exercise is all the wrong stuff.

As Bodhidharma once said, "No merit!"
I should have used the "double tegatana" I knew it!!

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Old 12-12-2007, 10:53 PM   #39
xuzen
 
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

[quote=George S. Ledyard;195699]
Quote:
Roman Naly wrote: View Post
If you are going to do anything worth while in the way of knife defense, striking has to be the essential component....<snip>...
My dojo-mates and I did played around after class with San-nin tanto/jutte dori jiyu waza (to non-japonophile: Three people mock knife / short stick free technique exercise)

All I can say is that in that circumstances, the only techniques that have any chance of successful application are still atemi-waza, kokyu-nage and plenty of tai-sabaki. Grappling is definitely a no-no.

Of all three I mentioned above, the tai-sabaki skill is the most important.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:38 AM   #40
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

[quote=Xu Wenfung;195713]
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post

My dojo-mates and I did played around after class with San-nin tanto/jutte dori jiyu waza (to non-japonophile: Three people mock knife / short stick free technique exercise)

All I can say is that in that circumstances, the only techniques that have any chance of successful application are still atemi-waza, kokyu-nage and plenty of tai-sabaki. Grappling is definitely a no-no.

Of all three I mentioned above, the tai-sabaki skill is the most important.

Boon.
What about Aiki?

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Old 12-13-2007, 09:52 AM   #41
ChrisMoses
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
What about Aiki?
Running away from someone while wacking them with a foam bat isn't aiki, nothing in any of your videos looks remotely like anything I would consider aiki. You are fooling yourself.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:43 AM   #42
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Hi All,

I got mixed opinions here. There are parts of the drill that I see great value in - so I was coming to it first from that point of view. In that perspective, I was not understanding the drill to be at all relative to fighting with a knife (i.e. as a weapon used to gain or maintain a tactical advantage over another), or even fighting in general. I saw it as working upon one aspect of fighting, one that is relative to Aiki and that is very hard for newbies to pick up on due to fear and attachment often going unreconciled.

What I saw was a new practitioner (the deshi in the video) tapping into a particular body/mind relative to Aiki tactics via a very commonly held understanding of using a knife (i.e. it cuts, and I have to move it to cut with it = I move). In other words, I saw folks using a basic element of cutting with a knife to get their body to keep moving, which is very much akin to Aiki tactics, especially when facing multiple attackers. That is a very good thing in my opinion, and, in fact, we too have used a knife as a training tool in a way similar to this. Of course, there is moving and then there is moving, but initially I found it better to start with contrasting moving with non-moving when it comes to getting students to unfetter their body/mind. Thus, I can see the value in this type of training, understanding it to be working on one very basic element of the art.

In contrast, for example, if you take folks with equal experience and stick them in that kind of training environment, but without the knife in their hand, I would pretty much let everything ride on the result that they would not keep moving but would, instead, and wrongly, attempt to stand toe-to-toe in front of one attacker - which would only result in he/she being overran by the second or third attacker (i.e. their inevitable defeat). Again, from this perspective, I think the "knife" as a training tool, one that is more likely to get a new practitioner's body moving and keep it moving, even within situations where they are more prone to stand still (i.e. stressful situations like fast moving multiple attackers intent on taking you down), is a very good thing.

Here's an example of how we ourselves tried to use the knife and its moving nature to "inspire" new folks to unfetter their body/mind and to problematize those things (and bring awareness to those things) that make a body/mind fettered. In the video we are using a basic feed-pass/check-feed three count rhythm to do this and, consequently, to help "put kihon waza together" (or wipe their divisions away - which ever angle you prefer) - which while not about fighting does tell you how fettered your game is or not, which does tell you how where you are in training.

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/shuofri.html

Aside from that, if one were opting to come from the point of view of knife fighting or knife attacking, or even just fighting in total, while there may be some parallels, ones that may in fact be part of the key elements necessary for gaining the training benefits I mentioned above, the drill in Chris' video starts to lose water - because it may be trying to accomplish too much too fast with too little. However, this does not take away from the fact that Chris' students will probably move way better in a basic randori drill than anyone else's students of similar experience who have never done any kind of drill similar to this. (My opinion)

That said, I also think, however, I am not of the mind to say that "this" or "that" is a real knife attack. So I would never critique the drill from that perspective. For me, what makes "reality" reality is that it can consist of anything. Thus, I would never say, "Oh, that's not how a real knife attack would be committed!" "It's like this, not that!" For me, reality is what reality is, and that can be anything. So, you might face something exactly like this, you might face something totally different, etc., and one would be the fool for seeing one thing once, or even more often than not, and thereby look to something else and think, "I'm never going to see that, so forget it." Again, the real is the real, and what makes the real the real is that it can be anything - always, never, and forever.

dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:11 AM   #43
ChrisMoses
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I saw it as working upon one aspect of fighting, one that is relative to Aiki and that is very hard for newbies to pick up on due to fear and attachment often going unreconciled.
David, I didn't quite get which aspect of aiki you felt that this drill was working towards. Sorry if I just missed it.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:41 AM   #44
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Hi All,

I got mixed opinions here. There are parts of the drill that I see great value in - so I was coming to it first from that point of view. In that perspective, I was not understanding the drill to be at all relative to fighting with a knife (i.e. as a weapon used to gain or maintain a tactical advantage over another), or even fighting in general. I saw it as working upon one aspect of fighting, one that is relative to Aiki and that is very hard for newbies to pick up on due to fear and attachment often going unreconciled.

What I saw was a new practitioner (the deshi in the video) tapping into a particular body/mind relative to Aiki tactics via a very commonly held understanding of using a knife (i.e. it cuts, and I have to move it to cut with it = I move). In other words, I saw folks using a basic element of cutting with a knife to get their body to keep moving, which is very much akin to Aiki tactics, especially when facing multiple attackers. That is a very good thing in my opinion, and, in fact, we too have used a knife as a training tool in a way similar to this. Of course, there is moving and then there is moving, but initially I found it better to start with contrasting moving with non-moving when it comes to getting students to unfetter their body/mind. Thus, I can see the value in this type of training, understanding it to be working on one very basic element of the art.

In contrast, for example, if you take folks with equal experience and stick them in that kind of training environment, but without the knife in their hand, I would pretty much let everything ride on the result that they would not keep moving but would, instead, and wrongly, attempt to stand toe-to-toe in front of one attacker - which would only result in he/she being overran by the second or third attacker (i.e. their inevitable defeat). Again, from this perspective, I think the "knife" as a training tool, one that is more likely to get a new practitioner's body moving and keep it moving, even within situations where they are more prone to stand still (i.e. stressful situations like fast moving multiple attackers intent on taking you down), is a very good thing.

Here's an example of how we ourselves tried to use the knife and its moving nature to "inspire" new folks to unfetter their body/mind and to problematize those things (and bring awareness to those things) that make a body/mind fettered. In the video we are using a basic feed-pass/check-feed three count rhythm to do this and, consequently, to help "put kihon waza together" (or wipe their divisions away - which ever angle you prefer) - which while not about fighting does tell you how fettered your game is or not, which does tell you how where you are in training.

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/shuofri.html

Aside from that, if one were opting to come from the point of view of knife fighting or knife attacking, or even just fighting in total, while there may be some parallels, ones that may in fact be part of the key elements necessary for gaining the training benefits I mentioned above, the drill in Chris' video starts to lose water - because it may be trying to accomplish too much too fast with too little. However, this does not take away from the fact that Chris' students will probably move way better in a basic randori drill than anyone else's students of similar experience who have never done any kind of drill similar to this. (My opinion)

That said, I also think, however, I am not of the mind to say that "this" or "that" is a real knife attack. So I would never critique the drill from that perspective. For me, what makes "reality" reality is that it can consist of anything. Thus, I would never say, "Oh, that's not how a real knife attack would be committed!" "It's like this, not that!" For me, reality is what reality is, and that can be anything. So, you might face something exactly like this, you might face something totally different, etc., and one would be the fool for seeing one thing once, or even more often than not, and thereby look to something else and think, "I'm never going to see that, so forget it." Again, the real is the real, and what makes the real the real is that it can be anything - always, never, and forever.

dmv
From that standpoint there is some value in this. We do some flow work, derived from Systema, which utilizes three people with knives to get people moving their bodies and developing sensitivity to the lines of attack. It's highly stylized and wouldn't be considered realistic by any means. But it does incorporate an awareness of atemi throughout and I think that is crucial.

Getting people moving is important but my feeling is that all exercises need to develop a forward attitude, no backing up, and the need to imprint the idea that your Mind is always "inside" the attack. These exercises don't do that, to my way of thinking...

George S. Ledyard
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:50 AM   #45
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

And the exercises that you showed in your clips look entirely different to my poor eyes from what was on the initial video.

Best,
Ron (and good to read you here again, hope all is well. Do I get to call you Occifer yet?)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:26 PM   #46
Michael Douglas
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
... I must say though the people over at bullshido didn't seem quite as venomous as the people here on aikiweb. Or maybe I just expected it over there...
You just expected it. Some WAS harsh.
Actually, lots of it was harsh, you just have rhino-thick skin!
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Old 12-13-2007, 01:19 PM   #47
ChrisMoses
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
You just expected it. Some WAS harsh.
Actually, lots of it was harsh, you just have rhino-thick skin!
OK, that was a funny thread.

Chris, maybe you should tell the aikiweb forum about what can be learned from samurai massacring peasants in a village.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:51 PM   #48
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Look I never said this drill was the be all end all. I never said my students were awesome or could do anything amazing. I never claimed to be the top notch best fighter around.

I made a non cooperative drill. I personally feel it has lots of merit. If you don't neat, I appreciate your feed back. If any of you can use aiki regularly against noncooperative attacks I'd love to see it. I just want to see Aiki folks leave the security of cooperative drills sometimes. That's what this is all about.

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Old 12-13-2007, 06:19 PM   #49
senshincenter
 
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
David, I didn't quite get which aspect of aiki you felt that this drill was working towards. Sorry if I just missed it.
My fault, I'm sure. Apologies.

I would say it's working on not getting fettered, or at least revealing to the practitioner the problem of being fettered - as noted in not moving, stopping, and being caught by the attackers. For me, this is one of the main reasons for training in multiple attacker situations. Not being fettered, being aware of how one is working toward an unfettering of body/mind in one's overall training, for me, is part of developing Aiki, especially when it comes to outside-the-dojo situations.

To help make this point clearer, let me say, I think a lot of folks that do multiple attacker training may look "prettier," "more refined," "better in their technique," etc., than the students in the video when it comes to such training, but what one may in fact be looking at is a training environment where standing still, being fettered, etc., is not being truly exposed. For example, this can occur, and almost always does, when the attackers stand around and wait for their turn to be thrown (vs. being charged with the mission of swamping nage). In the end, a person may look at such training and go, "Wow, that is aiki" - because it looks like how they are used to seeing kihon waza go. In reality, you got a nage that is standing around, fettered, standing in the middle of attachment and dualistic viewpoints that need to be wiped out, or dropped, before higher levels of Aiki could actually take place (my opinion) - especially within out-of-the dojo applications.

When I see Chris' video, I saw him running this students through one of the doorways that helps a person understand first-hand - you can't stand still; you will want to, but you can't: Movement is everything. From there, it raises the question, for his students, at a physical, spiritual, and intellectual level: What allows you to move? What does not allow you to move? These are Aiki questions for me - especially for real-world applications.

To make things more clear, please look at the following videos from this point of view (i.e. is the nage fettered, caught standing still, and/or are the attackers exposing this or hiding this). These videos were just randomly selected of a "randori" search on youtube.com - I'm not saying who is doing what or why - just asking folks to look at them from this point of view, thinking it might shed more light on what I saw in Chris' video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr8DJWKI28c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX6g-Mp7yKU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI

Thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:32 PM   #50
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Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

I think people that experiment with different training methods learn from the experience. It's all about getting outside of one's comfort zone. I'm pretty sure Chris learned some things from this type of training. He may refine it or he may dispose of it. Either way, nothing ventured, nothing gained. I try new things in my dojo. Some of them work out nicely, others not so good. But I learn from each experience, and to me, that is what it's all about. Don't we really learn more from our failures than from our successes anyway?
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