Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-10-2007, 04:31 PM   #1
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,630
United_States
Offline
Knife Randori Videos

Hey guys, this is the latest video from our school, and I'd like some feed back. Love it, hate it, or think it's a waste of time, I'd really enjoy hearing your opinions.

The criticism I've gotten on our you tube videos has been really helpful, and I'd like some on this. This is the closest I feel our school has come to heading in the direction I'd like to see it go.

There is no striking allowed in this practice, this is a major criticism of many, and I understand it. However right now that's not where we are at, and maybe you'll see some in the

future.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe1xCP0Wr6Y

Thanks.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 06:47 AM   #2
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Hi Chris

Could you give some more explentaion regarding the purpose of this practice.

I did not get the meaninig of the tanto, it seemed like the lot of you ignored the stabbings. Is it only supposed to be a means to stop the practice?
I could not see anything the tanto holder could do to stop the lot of you from rushing him time after time until he is grasped.

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 08:56 AM   #3
Jonathan
Dojo: North Winnipeg Aikikai
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 242
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Interesting.

Like Amir I don't understand why the attackers are ignoring being stabbed. If the knife is ignored as a weapon, why use it at all in this exercise?

Jon.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 08:58 AM   #4
DarkShodan
Dojo: Shuurin Dojo - Omaha, Nebarska
Location: Omaha
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 157
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

I'm confused as well. So the purpose of the training is to see how many unarmed people I can slash with a knife? Does not seem realistic at all, let alone the legal problems if this did ever happen, and not very Aiki. I've had better instruction and practice in my Chinese Knife fighting classes, and again I was going against guys with knives.

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 09:10 AM   #5
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,033
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

To be blunt, blind leading the blind making it a big waste of time.

Just reinforcing a lot of bad moves likely to get you killed in a real situation. Please stop and seek out someone who has a clue about knife before you abuse your students with further ignorance.

The direction it's heading now is delusion.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 09:26 AM   #6
Nick P.
 
Nick P.'s Avatar
Dojo: Sukagawa Aikido Club of Montreal
Location: Montreal
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 639
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

I thought the purpose of the exercise was to practice the TARGET is holding a knife, but is unwilling to use it on his ATTACKERS; if that was the goal, well done. That being said, an atemi with a knife in your hand would create some spacing, I think.

My first instinct was to say "Get rid of that blade if you are not going to use it" but realised if you threw it away, guess who would pick it up and use it?

As long as the goal was to learn how you think you might react in a similar situation, with no dillusions of how it might actually play out, then I say have fun. And fun is never a waste of time.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 10:20 AM   #7
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,630
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Great.

The attackers.
First off, the attackers (the unarmed mob) don't react to any damage they might receive from the weapon because that makes the practice harder. It's hard to guess at what kind of damage you might inflict on a cut, and hard to guess how different people will react to it. Some people receive lots of damage and keep coming, others get a paper cut and go home. So in the practice we make it a worse case scenario.

They do try to treat the knife as if it's real, but they also have an objective to achive-take the armed man down. doing it without getting cut/stabbed is the objective, but that objective is very hard.

About the "legal problems".
Yes you may face criminal charges if you use a weapon to defend yourself. Depending on what your facing, you may end up dead if you don't use one. If in this kind of horrible situation you'll have to make a choice.

About "real knife experts"
There are several really excellent edged weapon instructors. The majority of them have never been in a real knife engagement or any kind of fight at all.

While I personally seek out weapon advice where ever I can get it, knife fighting is not like boxing or wrestling where enough people have done it thousands and thousands of times till they really get to know what happens. You can glean some from this guys fight here or that ones there, but good info is hard to come by.

Other then the very few who have been in knife engagements you have to look to the theorists and those who have learned from people who have been in knife engagements. Both of which I am (theorist and learned from those who have been in knife fights) aside from that you'll have to find someone who has been in hundreds of knife fights (shouldn't be hard there are hundreds of them listed in black belt magazine).


The target and objective
The target is the guy holding the knife, not just the knife and not just the guy. Just like when doing multiple attackers I don't face 3 individuals but 3 people as a whole. Using the knife on the move is part of the practice. If you've never tried it I think you'd be surprised at how difficult it is to use a knife and try to blend at the same time.

Thanks.

Last edited by ChrisHein : 12-11-2007 at 10:23 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 10:49 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Hi Chris,

Given the stated goals in your post above, the first thing I would do as the knife holder, would be to reverse the blade. The second thing I would do would be to focus on evasive movement, and let the movement power the reversed blade with the blade out for slashing as I moved past opponants. The third, and last thing, I would do would be to occationally use really hard thrusts with the blade (hilt against my breast bone, kisaki out to opponant) to "finish" specific individuals isolated by evasive movement.

I have no experience in knife fighting, so...take it for what it isn't worth...



Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 11:46 AM   #9
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Chris,
For your research, take a look at this site:
http://www.albokalisilat.com/

There are various videos posted and some deal with knives. I'm pretty sure it'll give you some new insights on your practice.

As to your practice -- I can offer my opinion/advice, but I'm not an expert.

My first thought about the use of the knife in your video was that it was being used in an amateur fashion. In other words, basically, slicing back and forth and some stabbing. you can do a whole lot more with a knife.

If you have a knife, it's a deadly encounter. Period. Treat it as such. In other words, if you've got the knife, then use it to kill. Don't mess around with it. Slash, cut, pick, stab, core, or flay arteries and organs. A slight flick of the wrist can move a knife from outside an arm to inside an arm, where nice, juicy arteries are located.

If you aren't interested in using the knife to its full advantage, then my suggestion would be to not use it at all. But, that goes back to the previous paragraph -- a knife is a deadly weapon. Learn to wield it effectively.

Personally, I think trying to apply aikido to knife is backwards. Learn how to use the knife (and aikido doesn't teach that), apply aiki (body structure) to your knife work, and then find a way to blend all that to aikido.

But, that's all just IMO.

Ron,
there are ups and downs to reversing the blade (not taking into account blade in or blade out on the reverse). One major down to that is that you lose your reach. With the blade held outward, you have extended your reach. You can pick with the tip and stay outside your opponent's striking range. Even just barely making your opponent's range, you can slash a wrist. With reversed blade, you have to come well into striking range. Also, in a clench, you can't drive the point up under the opponent's ribs. Other stuff, etc.

Positives are it's harder to knock the blade from your hands. Just blocking (with reverse, edge out) with the knife will probably cut your opponent. Trapping is very effective. All it takes is to trap a wrist and then twist the knife around a bit to cut the opponent's wrist as he/she pulls away. Or better yet, trap a bit higher and flay the inside arm as he/she pulls the arm away. Other, nasty stuff, etc.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 11:47 AM   #10
Jonathan
Dojo: North Winnipeg Aikikai
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 242
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Hey, Chris.

Quote:
The attackers.
First off, the attackers (the unarmed mob) don't react to any damage they might receive from the weapon because that makes the practice harder. It's hard to guess at what kind of damage you might inflict on a cut, and hard to guess how different people will react to it. Some people receive lots of damage and keep coming, others get a paper cut and go home. So in the practice we make it a worse case scenario.
Personally, I teach my students that some knife cuts are not fatal (or at least, not immediately so) and others are. I urge them to react to being "cut" accordingly. If you get a slash or stab in the meat of the shoulder, or the outside of the thigh, for instance, you can keep moving -- and must -- in order to increase your chances of survival. But if you get stabbed (or slashed) in the throat or neck, the underside of the upper arm, the inside of the leg, the chest, kidneys, or spine, etc. you're basically dead meat.

Since it is so easy to be fatally wounded in knife attacks, and most people realize this, it is not likely that even a group of unarmed people will be willing to attack someone waving a knife at them. Why, then, would I engage in a practice that is based on such an unlikely situation? What's wrong with practicing blending and flowing without a knife? What specific benefit does the introduction of the knife into the situation offer to the development of blending?

Quote:
They do try to treat the knife as if it's real, but they also have an objective to achive-take the armed man down. doing it without getting cut/stabbed is the objective, but that objective is very hard.
The objective is hard -- potentially lethal, even -- so why make it harder by preventing them from striking? The defender would be far easier to deal with if he/she could be struck before or while a controlling measure was applied.

Quote:
The target is the guy holding the knife, not just the knife and not just the guy. Just like when doing multiple attackers I don't face 3 individuals but 3 people as a whole. Using the knife on the move is part of the practice. If you've never tried it I think you'd be surprised at how difficult it is to use a knife and try to blend at the same time.
It is only difficult when they keep coming in spite of being "wounded" by the knife. It is relatively easy to cut and blend (or blend and cut, whichever) and kill several unarmed attackers with a knife.

Jon.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 12:04 PM   #11
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
Pierre Kewcharoen's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido at NJIT
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 100
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

I would say its a good video exercise if your introducing it for the first time. Seems like a fun exercise allowing the students to see openings and blend into the action at a slow pace.

However from a practical point of view its far from being realistic in terms of knife offense/defense. The attacker seems to be using the tanto like a bait item and not a weapon as the attacker is perceived to be on the defensive. The students are able to grab because the fear of getting slashed is non existant allowing the knife wielder to be a non threat. If i may make suggestion I would speed up the knife thrusts. There was alot of openings where that If I was the guy with the knife and someone grabbed me, their hand is the first thing getting stabbed/ or I would pull them in and stab their chest. Once you get a few stabs in the chest your pretty much immobile, no mattter how strong you are. This aint the movies. But I do like the exercise, just make sure you let the students know that its not '"true" knife disarmarment technique.

As far as the legal status of weapon use for defense. I always carry something. I like to have the option.

Last edited by Pierre Kewcharoen : 12-11-2007 at 12:09 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 02:16 PM   #12
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Can I suggest dropping this exercise completely?
From what I can glean from the video it seems to get everyone doing terrible techniques in an unlikely scenario.

Why is the knifeman not cheerfully murdering all the unarmed victims?
Why are the wrestlers not just clinching and dragging the knifeman to the floor for their mates to finish him off?
Why do this silly 'training'. Do something more useful.

I notices quite ineffective armlocks being gently applied by the unarmed wrestlers ... they would benefit greatly from more training in the vicious application of disabling armlocks.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 02:28 PM   #13
Lan Powers
Dojo: Aikido of Midland, Midland TX
Location: Midland Tx
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 659
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Uke's team up.
You'r e ignoring damages from the blade, so sacrifice one as the others bum-rush nage. (no-one is hurt anyway) and you learn coordinated pack type attacks.
If no mind is payed to being "cut" or "stabbed" then the game is all in favor of the attackers.
Otherwise, (real-knife mentality) the options are all weighted in nages favor...unlimited movement with handswitches, odd angles, etc. unless you allow free attcks for the ukes also with atemi, and all options for the attack.

Fun to play though ....we do stuff with tantos as well, just playing around.
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 02:31 PM   #14
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
To be blunt, blind leading the blind making it a big waste of time.

Just reinforcing a lot of bad moves likely to get you killed in a real situation. Please stop and seek out someone who has a clue about knife before you abuse your students with further ignorance.

The direction it's heading now is delusion.
Ditto. That was difficult to watch. Sorry man. Not the kind of thing I could offer constructive criticism towards, it's just too far off base.

Last edited by ChrisMoses : 12-11-2007 at 02:36 PM.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 02:49 PM   #15
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
About "real knife experts"
There are several really excellent edged weapon instructors. The majority of them have never been in a real knife engagement or any kind of fight at all.
So how many knife fights have you been in and what were the outcomes?

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 03:04 PM   #16
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
Pierre Kewcharoen's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido at NJIT
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 100
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Please tell me your dojo isn't inside someone's garage
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 03:14 PM   #17
Shany
 
Shany's Avatar
Dojo: ISTA
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 163
Israel
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

ahh what a mess!

Pierre,
lol i thought the same thing

I would personally would like this mess not to continue, it is dangerous training like this, where everything just look like a twister!
the instructor even knows aikido? I haven't even seen any basic move! hes just jumping around, twisting,holding hands and badging in..

Last edited by Shany : 12-11-2007 at 03:20 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 03:32 PM   #18
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,850
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
Please tell me your dojo isn't inside someone's garage
And, if it were a garage? Personally, I don't find training in a garage to be anything to be ashamed of. People train where they can train.

Let's try to discuss the subject matter at hand with respect, folks.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 03:47 PM   #19
roman naly
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 23
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

[quote=Chris Hein;195502]"There is no striking allowed in this practice, "

Why?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 05:22 PM   #20
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
Please tell me your dojo isn't inside someone's garage
Garage dojo's are cool.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 05:47 PM   #21
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
Please tell me your dojo isn't inside someone's garage
If I had a big enough garage, that's where I would train. Don Angier and a number of other very worthwhile teachers train out of garage dojos. I'm more concerned about what I see in the garage.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 06:05 PM   #22
Nick P.
 
Nick P.'s Avatar
Dojo: Sukagawa Aikido Club of Montreal
Location: Montreal
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 639
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
Please tell me your dojo isn't inside someone's garage
That and your earlier comment about always carrying some sort of weapon has just placed you on my ignore list.

I know a fifth dan in Japan who teach in his 10-tatami living room; there can be up to 14 people at any one time.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 06:27 PM   #23
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,630
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Thanks for all the input!

All the technical tip's are noted. One of the most surprising things to me when I first started with non cooperative was how hard it was. My techniques no longer looked precise and clean, and lots of things were rushed through. If you haven’t done much noncooperative work it can be hard to understand what you are seeing, and why it doesn't look like the cooperative stuff. If any of you have some clips of you doing noncooperative I’d love to see them!

Pierre Kewcharoen,
Very perceptive. We are indeed using the knife as “bait”. It is our hope that the attacker will be encouraged to attempt to grab the knife hand , thus we can have a moment of “Aiki”. This is much as you would see in the forms practice “katate dori Tai no Henko, Ki no nagare”.

Christian Moses,
I have never been in a knife fight, neither have most “knife experts”, that was my point. I theorize, train, and listen to those who have been unfortunate enough to find themselves at the wrong (or right) end of a knife. Some have been in many knife encounters, those people should be listened to. Others just repeat what they hear, they should be questioned.

Look anyone can prearrange a fight and make it look awesome. I think the people in Hollywood are better then the best of Shihan. However putting yourself out there in an unknown situation is another thing. Some people want to be tricked with parlor tricks and pretty lights, others seek to make themselves better-to each his own.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 06:56 PM   #24
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Christian Moses,
I have never been in a knife fight, neither have most "knife experts", that was my point.
Thanks for the clarification, I missed the point you were getting at.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2007, 01:58 AM   #25
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Love to hear your oppinions on this video.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hey guys, this is the latest video from our school, and I'd like some feed back. Love it, hate it, or think it's a waste of time, I'd really enjoy hearing your opinions.
...<snip>...
We have poll here....

I chosed the "think it's a waste of time" option.

Hey, where is the " I don't do aikido" option?

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Religion and Aikido Jenn Spiritual 91 12-06-2007 11:47 AM
Ki and Technique... Ascendedskater25 Spiritual 58 03-20-2006 06:02 PM
Ten Ai Ko Tadhg Bird Spiritual 2 05-27-2004 08:57 AM
New Video Review: Ukemi, Volume 1 AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 12-30-2002 12:54 PM
New Video Review: Oyo Henka AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 11-04-2002 03:42 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:46 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate