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Old 10-13-2005, 08:18 PM   #101
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

"People say Seagal is arrogent, yet at the same time I always hear from other Aikido practitioners out here how effective their art is, yet none of them prove it in tourny. That sounds arrogent to me!"

Some think tourny's breed arrogance. Now, of course it comes down to the individual as to how they approach it in their mind, just as for any Aikidoka with regard to ability. People prove their ability in a number of ways. At my dojo back home in the US we never compete in tourny's, but when training with someone with some ability whom we know, we step it up gradually. Arrogance is usually based in assumptions of yourself with regard to other people, wouldn't you say? It's a natural part of learning though, in my opinion.

"Yes I know the philosophy of Aikido and yes I love it, but Aikido being an art of peace is just an excuse to not compete!"

Just an excuse? Are you sure you "know" the philosophy? Who derived that basic philosophy? Ueshiba, who had competed plenty from what I understand. I'd say it's a lot more than a mere excuse. Perhaps it takes a bit of arrogance to know it, but it sounds to me like you're being a bit arrogant in regards to your presumptions about Aikido philosophy. And, don't forget that there are a great many who participate in tourny's, though, yes, the vast majority do not.

"And yes we compete, full contact,,,because if you are being traditionally trained in the real art you should have no worries."

I agree tourny's are one way to measure ability. However, they are not the sum total of this ability.

"I mean in Shaolin, I was told by my Sifu that in the old days they would take up to a couple of months at time to heal from a sparring match. Yet they were peacefull tru and true."

"True" how? I don't understand that part. I suppose "peacefull" is a relative term. I'd rather not have to recover from training in that long a period of time. I don't know what degree of recovery you're refering to so my impression could be way off, but that sounds like a weakened state someone might be able to exploit when it really mattered.

"Seagal arrogent? Maybe, but he tried, failed, and learned too"

I never met the man. But it sounds to me like here you're just making an excuse to be arrogant Just teasing of course.
Take care, and thanks for the opportunity to consider some new ideas,
Matt

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Old 10-13-2005, 11:06 PM   #102
Mike Fugate
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Ki Symbol Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

Just an excuse? Are you sure you "know" the philosophy? Who derived that basic philosophy? Ueshiba, who had competed plenty from what I understand. I'd say it's a lot more than a mere excuse. Perhaps it takes a bit of arrogance to know it, but it sounds to me like you're being a bit arrogant in regards to your presumptions about Aikido philosophy. And, don't forget that there are a great many who participate in tourny's, though, yes, the vast majority do not.
Ok, first off, just because the founder did somthing doesnt really mean much when you are the one in the hot seat. Our Grandmaster could do almost superhuman feats, never have I seen anyone who could do what he was able to do, it was almost "magical". Does that mean we have a great art? Maybe,,,I believe it is complete, but I have heard of many who would resite stories about what Grandmaster did, and he did this and that, yet they always somehow manage to evade confrontation in full contact. This is exactly why so many people have so little respect for traditional martial arts in MMA competitions.
For the record, I do believe Aikido works! I know first hand it does, I have felt it, and I have executed it in real situations, it is one of the most beautiful arts I have ever seen.
I am not pointing a finger at any certain person, but trying to remind anyone who may get too full of there art, or 'what their art is capable of, but of course one must be at a high level in which they arent yet but they do know of OTHERS can do it.
True" how? I don't understand that part. I suppose "peacefull" is a relative term. I'd rather not have to recover from training in that long a period of time. I don't know what degree of recovery you're refering to so my impression could be way off, but that sounds like a weakened state someone might be able to exploit when it really mattered.
What I meant was "In Shaolin they "were" peacefull true and true, or they lived a life of peace. Buddhist priests, Shaolin C'han. They "were" amongst the most peacefull individuals on the planet, and if one would look closley at a style that is still authentic they may see alot of similarites between Shaolin and Aikido. But as for the sparring matches, it isnt that ALL the matches resulted in 2 months of recovery, but that is an example of how severe they were. They were not weak in anyway, but all very strong resulting in sparring that we would call Extreme. Just making an example of passive monks that even believe in competing, they did against each other in the temples, and even the one who raised my Sifu did out of the temple conducting many of matches, ussually out in parks, and he had "Open Challenges" from any styles that wished to participate.
Call it arrogence or what ever you wish, but I am just comenting on what I have seen, felt, and done. And I think people must take a serious look at their arts, and themselves. I understand not having to prove anything if we know amongst us that we are good, but when respect is being lost everyday, we may wanna take a closer look. Oh yeah, I do like Seagal great movies, great fight scenes

"When you cease to strive to understand, then you will know without understanding." -- Caine
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Old 10-16-2005, 03:53 PM   #103
Neil Mick
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

...but Steven Seagal, an "actor??"

Hmm...hard to believe, but if you say so.

In which movie, did he "act?"

(and no, shooting a gun or beating up bad guys DOESN'T COUNT...)
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Old 10-17-2005, 03:01 AM   #104
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

Quote:
Ok, first off, just because the founder did somthing doesnt really mean much when you are the one in the hot seat.
I was refering to the fact that the edict of not competing was given by a person with competition experience. In this way, perhaps it could be said that Seagal isn't representing aikido on the big screen? (trying not to break topic too much...sorry guys for doing so)

Quote:
Does that mean we have a great art? Maybe,,,I believe it is complete, but I have heard of many who would resite stories about what Grandmaster did, and he did this and that, yet they always somehow manage to evade confrontation in full contact.
You mean the people who tell stories of OSensei fighting never engage in fights/competitions? Tohei, I believe, was given the rare request by OSensei to engage a South American Wrestler in competition, so at least some of those who speak of his experiences did in fact compete.

"This is exactly why so many people have so little respect for traditional martial arts in MMA competitions."

The respect of others isn't a thing I care so much about, but it's a valid point that all theory and no testing makes for an empty martial art...in a sense, hollow, at least.
I'll write more when i have more time...take care,
Matt

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Old 10-17-2005, 03:38 AM   #105
Taliesin
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

This is a fascinating point. However we must remember that competition can just as easily lead to a lowering of standards as a raising of them. I also point out that competition also necessarily means setting out to beat your opponent. given the philosophy of Aikido is harmony it's difficult to see how completion would do anything other than detract from an ability to harmoniously deal with attacks .

Nor is one on one completion necessarily a true reflection of ability, 'fighting' or self defense ability also encompasses dealing with armed attackers and multiple attackers or even multiple armed attackers - an ability that does not ever appear to be demonstrated in competition.

So then the question becomes not who can beat who in a one to one fight but who would best deal with, a single unarmed attacker, a single armed attacker, multiple unarmed attackers, multiple armed attackers - and the answers may very well be different.

I don't say competition has no value, but I do say it has limits in the assessment of 'fighting' ability. It also seems strange to accuse those who do not compete 'arrogant' when competitors avoid all the other challenges.
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Old 10-17-2005, 07:05 AM   #106
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

Quote:
I am not pointing a finger at any certain person, but trying to remind anyone who may get too full of there art,
This is a good reminder I think. As someone who essentially has only an Aikido experience, I value the opinions of those who regularly practice other styles.

Quote:
What I meant was "In Shaolin they "were" peacefull true and true, or they lived a life of peace. Buddhist priests, Shaolin C'han. They "were" amongst the most peacefull individuals on the planet, and if one would look closley at a style that is still authentic they may see alot of similarites between Shaolin and Aikido. But as for the sparring matches, it isnt that ALL the matches resulted in 2 months of recovery
I see what you mean about the first part of this and I figured that last part was just an example. My point was that I'd rather never have to rest 2 months or even 2 weeks, if I can help it. The idea behind "no competitions" is that Aikido techniqes can be very dangerous and that really trying your hardest could mean someone will get seriously hurt. I agree one can temper their competition to accomodate this though. Shodokan Aikido does this and in fact, to address the other post, uses tanto training a lot in their conpetitions as I recall...now how to bring Seagal Sensei into this...hmmm...
ok I'll stick to topic from now on...and this time I mean it!
Take care,
Matt

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Old 10-18-2005, 07:52 AM   #107
ad_adrian
 
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

hmmm i just read through that whole 5 pages...god that took me a long time,
now there r so many issues and discusions in here it would be impossible for me to imput my view in one page, hmmm so i wont go into detail just state some things briefly
1. aikido definatly does work i have seen it and read about it working so many times against all forms, im not saying its the best martial art or anything like that but it definatly works.
2.steven seagal's aikido definatly works! i think his aikido in comparison to others is slightly harsher but everyone has their own aikido and their own style, thats aikido there's plenty of styles, im fustrated as to all you guys can bag him, who are we to judge his aikido and the way he approaches his personal life..whats it got to do with you, you dont even know if half of it is true,

to the one's that are bagging him out (not mentioning names) you obviously are not getting the proper message of aikido and aint following the whole harmony aspect in the right way, i pity you and i do hope that eventually you will discover your self and ur harmony with everything
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Old 08-06-2006, 06:59 AM   #108
thomascrtt
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
I have seen some of his seminar tapes, and his technical looked very good. IMHO, nothing brings more attention to something than those who critize it. Do not worry about Seagal's Aikido, get back to the mat and train your own.

Until again,

Lynn
No one could have said it any better.
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Old 08-07-2006, 03:23 AM   #109
shadowedge
 
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

my my this is a very old thread....

wonder why it poped up recently... anyway my thoughts on him... I've always been a fan, and I can safely say he is one of the inspirational figures that drove me to take up the art. I've grown up watching Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan et al... but during a time I was choosing which art to take, his movies stood out... Aikido made quite an impression on me becaue of its simplicity... there were no high jumps, no spinning kicks, no wire tricks. just the beauty of the art. True he does improvise due to the fact it is a movie, but it won my heart anyway.

I believe for future generations, there should be another Steven Segal in the movies, so people can become inquisitive (or even aware) about it.

My two cents.
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Old 08-07-2006, 05:55 AM   #110
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

When I watched the videos of segals students testing for the black belt (the one where they do the randori where the ukes just tear up nage) I knew that that would be the type of aikido training I would want. Just like that test, every class. The hard physical pressure testing I watched in the clips of that video is one of the reasons I went out and found judo and bjj. My aikido school was much softer and more ki focused. I think I may of stayed longer had their aikido been like his aikido. However, my instructors instructor did not like segals training methods one bit.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-07-2006, 05:23 PM   #111
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

I'm with Don here. That is the type of Aikido I am interested in and want to practice.
Not sure a good word to describe it (especially without stepping on toes)
More of an alive feeling perhaps? I find it has a military feeling to it.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 08-13-2006, 03:02 PM   #112
Tony Hudspith
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

Hi Norman
I agree with you that the Path Beyond Thought is a good video (after all, I'm in it aint I!!!)
I have trained with Steven Seagal on numerous occassions and have taken ukemi from him too. His Aikido is VERY good and VERY effective!
He is a friendly, sincere person who has brought Aikido to the forefront by his movies. He acts like he does in the movies in real life so I suppose his acting isn't that bad really.
Anyway, we might be coming to your dojo this Monday so watch out!!!!
Tony
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:53 AM   #113
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

In my opinion, Hollywood can make an egomaniac out of anybody. It seems Segal had issues with his ego his entire life.

That being said, he did run a dojo for years in Japan and he was a great athlete.

He also appears though to be an aikibully and that's ultimately what turned me off to him and why I wouldn't want him as a sensei.

He has made a fortune making the art of peace look uberviolent all in the name of making a buck.

I'm not sure what I would do in the same situation but I would be in a lot of conflict philosophically.

It seems to me the man is very much out of balance, has no respect for women, and enjoys hurting others while his need to shine is gratified.

This is not aikido from what I understand, it's something else completely. The physical moves might be aikido-ish ( maybe more like a combination of the harder styles or a hybrid of aikibudo.

I believe it's not a good idea to train with a sensei that has too many character flaws. By sandan I would hope that a person would have worked those problems out.
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:26 PM   #114
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

I got nothing wrong with Seagal. I've seen his aikido tapes and to me his aikido is pretty damn good. Awful actor though. Can't say aikido is completely a peaceful art. Ego destroys aikido, even after getting rid of colored belts.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:00 PM   #115
Keith Larman
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

And the thread rises from the dead... AAAIIIEEEEE!!!!!

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Old 12-11-2007, 02:22 PM   #116
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
And the thread rises from the dead... AAAIIIEEEEE!!!!!
Blame Carl Thomas
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:41 PM   #117
Shany
 
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

some says that steven segal has made Aikido look bad? Why so? he did what actually Ueshiba wanted, to spread it around the globe. Some may think he is too agressive and erroagant.. perhaps i don't know him personally, but on the streets u should be tough and mean and good and fast (if u couldn't avoid it that is and ur being pushed around).

his being an actor made aikido looks less than it supposed to be? didn't bruce lee used kung fu in his movies? does it mean he made kung fu look bad? they both did/do good at what they do, whatver the inner problem them have, this is a different story, but the art stays the same (pretty much )
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:23 PM   #118
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
some says that steven segal has made Aikido look bad? Why so? he did what actually Ueshiba wanted, to spread it around the globe. Some may think he is too agressive and erroagant.. perhaps i don't know him personally, but on the streets u should be tough and mean and good and fast (if u couldn't avoid it that is and ur being pushed around).

his being an actor made aikido looks less than it supposed to be? didn't bruce lee used kung fu in his movies? does it mean he made kung fu look bad? they both did/do good at what they do, whatver the inner problem them have, this is a different story, but the art stays the same (pretty much )
One thing for sure, aikido is a known word and practice among many people simply because the movies Segal made. On a certain level his movies have given us, as aikidoists, a springboard for conversations about aikido with non-aikidoka even if we would describe it or practice it differently than Segal Sensei.

just a thought

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:59 PM   #119
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

I'd say Segal's acting is MUCH better than Bruce Lee's acting, however.

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Old 12-24-2007, 12:43 AM   #120
Walter Martindale
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

Have never had the opportunity to meet or train in the vicinity of Seagal sensei, so purchased Path video.. If "aikikai" were "vanilla", "yoshinkan" were "chocolate", etc., then Seagal's aikido is likely yet another flavour of the same product. Perhaps with a bit of habanero flavour.
Don't know the man, won't judge him.
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:28 AM   #121
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

Here's acting at it's best...Oscars for all the ukes.. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv4f6xH-OwM
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Old 12-26-2007, 12:17 AM   #122
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Re: Steven Seagal and Aikido, your thoughts

Quote:
James Sherlock wrote: View Post
In my opinion, Hollywood can make an egomaniac out of anybody. It seems Segal had issues with his ego his entire life.

That being said, he did run a dojo for years in Japan and he was a great athlete.

He also appears though to be an aikibully and that's ultimately what turned me off to him and why I wouldn't want him as a sensei.

He has made a fortune making the art of peace look uberviolent all in the name of making a buck.

I'm not sure what I would do in the same situation but I would be in a lot of conflict philosophically.

It seems to me the man is very much out of balance, has no respect for women, and enjoys hurting others while his need to shine is gratified.

This is not aikido from what I understand, it's something else completely. The physical moves might be aikido-ish ( maybe more like a combination of the harder styles or a hybrid of aikibudo.

I believe it's not a good idea to train with a sensei that has too many character flaws. By sandan I would hope that a person would have worked those problems out.
One would think that with a name like "Sherlock" one would base his statements on what he knows to be the truth rather than regurgitating nonsense he read in some Follywood magazine. You speak as if you know the man. From what you have posted here, percentages are high that you do not know him, or even know anyone that knows him at any great depth. Spouting opinions being easy, I'll spout one here - It is never a good idea to comment in such a manner, in a public forum, while attaching your name for all, including your Sensei to see.. I do not know who your Sensei is, but had you had the chance to study with Seagal Sensei even just a little I can confidently say that you would have grown exponentially from the process. It is quite obvious that up until now you most certainly have not trained with Seagal Sensei, Matsuoka Sensei or any of the senior students from the old Los Angeles Tenshin Dojo

Your post speaks of conflict, character flaws and balance. It does so as if you believe that your Sensei has mastered these things. I can assure you that he is as human and as flawed as the rest of us. You speak of Aiki as if you have some deep understanding of this matter. Then you already know that there is no conflict where there is Aiki. Creating conflict with posts such as yours in this thread would an extreme lack of Aiki. As a beginner perhaps it would be prudent to worry more about your personal openings than those of someone about as far removed from your daily life as one could possibly be.

I let most of these internet condemnations of Seagal Sensei go without feeling any need to clue in the clueless. However, you are a beginner so you do not know any better. Your profile indicates that you train in Manhattan, so you are so very close. It is the holidays, after all and I am feeling overly generous. I will contact you privately later on this week so that whenever you feel like stopping by my dojo we can talk all about Aiki, conflict, balance or whatever else might come to mind. While you may not have an opportunity to answer any questions you might have by training with Seagal Sensei directly, I will try my best to relieve you of whatever negativity you might have with regards to one of my teachers so that you can get back to the task at hand, that being focusing on seeking O-Sensei's Aikido. I am not interested in starting any sort of flame war here on Aikiweb or anywhere else for that matter. If you have anything you would like to say about my post and are not interested in taking me up on my invitation, please write me privately if you feel so inclined.

Peace to all throughout the holidays and beyond.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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