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Old 12-06-2007, 12:08 PM   #51
Dewey
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Quote:
Paul Milburn wrote: View Post
I am a Christian and hoping to become a Catholic priest, I also am a 4th dan instructor and love my aikido. I think brian there are a lot of issues to sort here but not time or room to give them justice. Many people have issues over a religion because they have bad experiences of it or someone who represents it, this is sad.... remember that God and religion are two different things. Religion is mans construction of paths to get to God, but not perfect by any means. Practice your aikido with all your might and train through these conflicting feelings you have. They will pass. Keep your heart open to God by practicing with love and He will come to you in his time. "When the student is ready the sensei appears"
First, I can see why you resurrected this thread (all puns intended)...but come on, it's 6 years old!

All kidding aside, read my very first posting here on AikiWeb...my introduction: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...35&postcount=1.

PM me...let's chat. I myself followed that path.
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:08 AM   #52
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Hi Brian, Wow, I must confess i didnt even look at dates at all, I didnt realise it was 6 years old. oh well, its always a timely subject i guess. yes i will mail you also, thanks.
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Old 12-07-2007, 12:05 PM   #53
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

If Aikido was a religion it would probably be tied to buddhism
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Old 12-07-2007, 12:47 PM   #54
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

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Pierre Kewcharoen wrote: View Post
If Aikido was a religion it would probably be tied to buddhism
Why do you say that?

David
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Old 12-07-2007, 04:22 PM   #55
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Yea for many that identify with buddhism, like myself, would point out to you that they don't consider buddhism to be a separate and distinct religion!

In fact, many will tell you that buddhism can encompass all religions and can be practiced right along beside them.

....much like aikido

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Old 12-07-2007, 04:30 PM   #56
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

So philosophically speaking...aikido and buddhism embrace the same principles of unifying, peace, and harmony.

It is more about the philosophy than about defining itself as a religion

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Old 12-07-2007, 08:07 PM   #57
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Yea for many that identify with buddhism, like myself, would point out to you that they don't consider buddhism to be a separate and distinct religion!

In fact, many will tell you that buddhism can encompass all religions and can be practiced right along beside them.

....much like aikido
Buddhism is very sneaky that way.

The Tibetan variety also has its own form of debate that may seem very familiar to aikidoka in a number of respects:

Quote:
Tibetan debates involve two parties: a defender (dam bca' ba), who answers, and a questioner (rigs lam pa). The roles of defender and questioner imply very different responsibilities.
Follow the link and then scroll half-way down the page for an account of "The Thrilla in the Chilla," a 2003 dharma-combat between Robert AF Thurman and Gehlek Rinpoche.
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:26 PM   #58
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

I can't believe I am partaking in thread necromancy (6 years old)...but here goes:

This subject has/is also of interest for me, but for entirely different reasons. I come from the perspective of someone who spent several years in the seminary preparing for the Roman Catholic priesthood. In the end, I chose not to pursue that path as it ultimately was not a suitable lifestyle for me (i.e. that whole celibacy thing...I admit that I enjoy the company of women too much). Regardless, I received an excellent theological education. I still am a practicing Christian, BTW (a lot of folks incorrectly assume that if you drop out of the seminary, you're automatically a "fallen away" Catholic or that you somehow lost your faith).

My take on the issue is that we first must differentiate between Catholics, Protestants and Evangelicals when we discuss this issue. Just as with Buddhism (or any other religion), Christianity has several diverse denominations, sects and factions that sometimes dramatically disagree with each other.

From my experience, Catholics (even devout ones such as myself) usually don't have a problem with Aikido...even with it's most traditional and overtly Shinto aspects. Why? I think it is because Catholicism is very symbolical in its essence: sacraments, liturgy, saints, hierarchical clergy, etc. I can easily find several parallels between Catholicism and Aikido...far too much and too detailed to write here. They all compliment one another quite well and Aikido has become a devotional for me, with bokken and jo as rosaries.

Protestants (by this I mean mainstream Protestantism such as Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc.) by and large don't have too many problems with Aikido, either. Many of the mainline denominations are very heavy into ecumenism and interfaith dialogue, so Aikido fits in quite nicely to that paradigm. However, it is a bit more nebulous though in that the more conservative the particular denomination, the more problems they have with Aikido.

The group of Christians that by and large have the most difficulty with Aikido are Evangelicals. Because they take a rather literal interpretation of the Bible as well as their aversion to any form of ritual (this historically stems from their distaste for Catholicism), Evangelicals regard Aikido as an "eastern religion." Bowing is considered an idolatrous act, as is the presence of the shomen...which is regarded as a pagan shrine of false gods (Shinto kami) and a false messiah (O'Sensei). Even more, that Aikido espouses specific moral principles as well as a distinct spirituality that encourages introspection as illuminated by O'Sensei, Evangelicals regard all this as constituting a religion. Of course, the fact that much of what is the body of "Aikido spirituality" is remarkably similar and quite complimentary to Christianity is often lost on Evangelicals. Oh well....
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Old 12-08-2007, 06:05 AM   #59
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Yes I can identify with that Brian. i was brought up mainstream Evangelical in baptist, methodist and salvationist circles. What you say is quite right. i find catholicism quite tolerant, although not totally on some aspects, but that might be in me and not catholicism.
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Old 12-08-2007, 01:15 PM   #60
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

What aspects are they/you not tolerant on?

Where do you find the conflict?

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Old 12-08-2007, 08:22 PM   #61
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
I can't believe I am partaking in thread necromancy (6 years old)...but here goes:
Some subjects qualify as "once and future threads" ...

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
This subject has/is also of interest for me, but for entirely different reasons. I come from the perspective of someone who spent several years in the seminary preparing for the Roman Catholic priesthood. In the end, I chose not to pursue that path as it ultimately was not a suitable lifestyle for me (i.e. that whole celibacy thing...I admit that I enjoy the company of women too much).
Samuel Johnson, whom I reacquainted myself with recently, once said that while marriage has many pains, celibacy has no pleasures.

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
From my experience, Catholics (even devout ones such as myself) usually don't have a problem with Aikido...even with it's most traditional and overtly Shinto aspects. Why? I think it is because Catholicism is very symbolical in its essence: sacraments, liturgy, saints, hierarchical clergy, etc. I can easily find several parallels between Catholicism and Aikido...far too much and too detailed to write here. They all compliment one another quite well and Aikido has become a devotional for me, with bokken and jo as rosaries.
Embrace your enemy while "turning the other cheek," and genuflect = Kokyunage, ... so pretty much, yeah ...

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
Evangelicals regard Aikido as an "eastern religion." Bowing is considered an idolatrous act, as is the presence of the shomen...which is regarded as a pagan shrine of false gods (Shinto kami) and a false messiah (O'Sensei).
Veneration and due homage in appreciation does not equal worship. Why do they not get that?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:27 AM   #62
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Stumbled upon this on AikidoJournal yesterday...an interview with Andre Nocquet concerning his time as uchi-deshi to O'Sensei:

"[One day] I said to Ueshiba Sensei, "You are always praying, Ueshiba Sensei. Then aikido is a religion." "No, that's not true. Aikido is never a religion, but if you are a Christian, you will be a better Christian because of aikido. If you are a Buddhist, you will be a better Buddhist." I thought it was an amazing response. I really liked his answer. Since he was a Japanese I was afraid he would say that Christianity was nothing. Ueshiba Sensei had a great deal of respect for Christ. I was living in a four-mat room in the dojo and he would knock on the door and enter. He would sit down beside me and there was a portrait of Jesus Christ. He would place his hands together in a gesture of respect. I asked him one day if there wasn't a similarity between his prophecies and those of Christ. He answered, "Yes, because Jesus said his technique was love and I, Morihei, also say that my technique is love. Jesus created a religion, but I didn't. Aikido is an art rather than a religion. But if you practice my aikido a great deal you will be a better Christian." Then I asked, "Sensei should I remain a Christian?" He replied, "Yes, absolutely. You were raised as a Christian in France. Remain a Christian." If he had told me to stop being a Christian and become a Buddhist, I would have been lost. My heart was full of Ueshiba Sensei because he had a vision of the entire world and that we were all his children. He called me his son."

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=405
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:34 AM   #63
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
Stumbled upon this on AikidoJournal yesterday...an interview with Andre Nocquet concerning his time as uchi-deshi to O'Sensei:

"[One day] I said to Ueshiba Sensei, "You are always praying, Ueshiba Sensei. Then aikido is a religion." "No, that's not true. Aikido is never a religion, but if you are a Christian, you will be a better Christian because of aikido. If you are a Buddhist, you will be a better Buddhist." I thought it was an amazing response. I really liked his answer. Since he was a Japanese I was afraid he would say that Christianity was nothing. Ueshiba Sensei had a great deal of respect for Christ. I was living in a four-mat room in the dojo and he would knock on the door and enter. He would sit down beside me and there was a portrait of Jesus Christ. He would place his hands together in a gesture of respect. I asked him one day if there wasn't a similarity between his prophecies and those of Christ. He answered, "Yes, because Jesus said his technique was love and I, Morihei, also say that my technique is love. Jesus created a religion, but I didn't. Aikido is an art rather than a religion. But if you practice my aikido a great deal you will be a better Christian." Then I asked, "Sensei should I remain a Christian?" He replied, "Yes, absolutely. You were raised as a Christian in France. Remain a Christian." If he had told me to stop being a Christian and become a Buddhist, I would have been lost. My heart was full of Ueshiba Sensei because he had a vision of the entire world and that we were all his children. He called me his son."

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=405
How would I explain how practicing the techniques of Aikido will make you a better Christian?

David

David
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:38 AM   #64
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
How would I explain how practicing the techniques of Aikido will make you a better Christian?
I would call it practical training in "turning the other cheek."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:43 AM   #65
Dewey
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
How would I explain how practicing the techniques of Aikido will make you a better Christian?

David
Yeah, I puzzled over that one as well. Perhaps by taking the martial principle of Aiki from a purely physical realm into the realm of the self: "true victory is victory over one's self" as one of O'Sensei's most famous sayings go. Through hard physical training, misogi, and introspection...work to merge/blend the mind, body and spirit into one being and not compartmentalize or even deny those aspects of our lives as we are want and/or taught to do...spiritual Aiki...Oneness of the self. When one is grounded and fully self-aware (spiritually, not in the philosophical or psychological perspective of mere thought abstraction), then they are able to fully perceive their connection with others and the environment around them...Oneness. This oneness is a natural benefit to martial arts training and self-defense (i.e. zanshin/awareness). It doesn't matter the religion or spiritual path you choose, just as long as it pulls you out of your own little world and induces introspection and the desire to improve one's self.

To me, it makes me a better Christian because it moves Christianity from being merely a set of abstract beliefs into something that is physical. That Oneness I was blathering on about above.

Well, at least that's what I take from it. Could be entirely off-track. Who knows...wish Nocquet was still alive, I'd write him about it.

Last edited by Dewey : 12-12-2007 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:15 AM   #66
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

While we are raising the dead,

it would be interesting to see where that 6th kyu 15 year old originator of this nearly 7 year old thread is today.

I have known at least a couple of priests (Catholic, Episcopal) that were practicing aikido yudansha. Aikido is not in conflict with the basic universal principles of all world religions or secular humanism for that matter either.

I could certainly see a regular physical practice congruent with diffusing the aggression in a situation while minimizing the harm help someone be better able to follow Christian ideals as "Love thy enemy".

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...46766120071016

In typical daily confrontations, coming less from a place of fear and more from a place of empathy.

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Old 12-13-2007, 01:51 PM   #67
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
How would I explain how practicing the techniques of Aikido will make you a better Christian?
Perhaps it's not that practicing the techniques will make you better (to me that's like saying practicing scales and drills on a piano is the whole of studying music), but the deep instropsection and self-analysis that comes from practicing Aikido.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 12-17-2007, 01:39 PM   #68
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

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Johannes Davidsson wrote: View Post
Can someone please tell me??????????
Escape, escape, escape! But escape from what? If you grow up in a Christian, Muslim, or whatever environment then you cannot easily escape the cultural entanglements. My advice is to study, and to distance yourself from that which you do not like. Personally, as I get older, I find myself disliking all religion of any type more and more. I think religion can be good, and it can produce good people, but it is not for me as it makes no sense to me. To me, you religion is your habit.

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Old 12-17-2007, 01:41 PM   #69
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Quote:
Johannes Davidsson wrote: View Post
Can someone please tell me??????????
Escape, escape, escape! But escape from what? If you grow up in a Christian, Muslim, or whatever environment then you cannot easily escape the cultural entanglements. My advice is to study, and to distance yourself from that which you do not like. Personally, as I get older, I find myself disliking all religion of any type more and more. I think religion can be good, and it can produce good people, but it is not for me as it makes no sense to me. To me, religion is nothing more than everyday habit.

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Old 12-17-2007, 07:02 PM   #70
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Escape, escape, escape! But escape from what?... My advice is to study, and to distance yourself from that which you do not like. Personally, as I get older, I find myself disliking all religion of any type more and more. ... it is not for me as it makes no sense to me
Fear grows in loss. Lengthening shadows darken present pleasures. No one likes death. But Death pursues. None escapes him.

The choice is really quite that simple. One may flee, only to be taken unawares and in vain fearful struggle at the end. Or one may turn, embrace and seek to redeem that reality in some way from mere destruction.

Christianity and Aikido share in this perspective on something that every man sooner or later must confront. Both counsel that addressing it sooner is better. Both hold that the narrow self is that which dies, and the Divine survives. And Both hold that Love is Divine. And that true martial struggle must be a divine work of love.

Ally to the Divine -- conquer the small self. This sensibility is equally the message of Christian teaching and that of O Sensei. Speaking personally, saying is easier than doing -- but it is true regardless of my relative merit in the occasion. Truth is like that.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:30 PM   #71
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
How would I explain how practicing the techniques of Aikido will make you a better Christian?

David

David
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...927#post195927
Post #13

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
According to the Founder and to some of his direct students aikido is Misogi. It is true on personal level as well on general level. As aikidoka we suppouse to be between sacrum and profanum.
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:34 PM   #72
dps
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

In researching the meaning of Sacrum I found this,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrum

"The sacrum is a large, triangular bone at the base of the spine and at the upper and back part of the pelvic cavity, where it is inserted like a wedge between the two hip bones. Its upper part connects with the last lumbar vertebra, and bottom part with the coccyx (tailbone)."

"The name is derived from the Latin sacer, "sacred", a translation of the Greek hieron (osteon), meaning sacred or strong bone.[1] This is supposedly because the sacrum was the part of an animal offered in sacrifice. In Slavic languages and in German this bone is called the "cross bone"

Eric Mead will like this, http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/16/22/03.htm

David

Last edited by dps : 12-17-2007 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 03:07 AM   #73
Alex Megann
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
... Evangelicals regard Aikido as an "eastern religion." .
I've always found it amusing that many Christians think of Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and so on as "foreign" religions. Didn't Christianity start off in Asia?

For whatever reasons, the Romans and their successors imposed the "foreign" religion of Christianity over all of the indigenous "native" religions in Europe.

I gather that in Greece there is a group trying to revive the pagan religion of Ancient Greek times, and the Orthodox Church there is doing its best to suppress this.

Alex
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Old 12-18-2007, 10:17 AM   #74
dps
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

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Didn't Christianity start off in Asia?
Let's see, Jesus was born in Bethlehem, his hometown was Nazareth, nope not Asia.

For a good book to read about the history of Christianity I would recommend the Bible.
David

Last edited by dps : 12-18-2007 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 10:45 AM   #75
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Re: Christianity and Aikido??

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Let's see, Jesus was born in Bethlehem, his hometown was Nazareth, nope not Asia.

For a good book to read about the history of Christianity I would recommend the Bible.
David
When I last checked an Atlas, Israel (where Nazareth and Bethlehem are located), was in Southwest Asia.

cf Wikipedia entry on Israel

Quote:
Israel (Hebrew: יִשְׂרָאֵל‎, Yisra'el), officially the State of Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info), Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl), is a country in Southwest Asia located on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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