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Old 11-29-2007, 08:37 AM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Hi Mark, all good thoughts.

But the reality is (as Mike S. says), there are all kinds of levels of these things.

My own teacher speaks of levels of protection. 2 levels is better than one, and 3 better than two...

So, by the logic of the statements above, if I position myself so that uke has a hard time striking me, that's one level. If I use the skills you are talking about (and they are greater than my partner's skills), that's another level. If I am in a position to strike as well, that's a 3rd level. And if the movement and placement covers me from multiple opponents, yet another level.

The fact is, I cannot count on my body structure being better than the other guy. It may well be...but it may not. So in my mind, a competent MAist will still cover those other bases....just in case.



Best,
Ron (let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater...)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:08 AM   #27
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Mark, all good thoughts.

But the reality is (as Mike S. says), there are all kinds of levels of these things.

My own teacher speaks of levels of protection. 2 levels is better than one, and 3 better than two...

So, by the logic of the statements above, if I position myself so that uke has a hard time striking me, that's one level. If I use the skills you are talking about (and they are greater than my partner's skills), that's another level. If I am in a position to strike as well, that's a 3rd level. And if the movement and placement covers me from multiple opponents, yet another level.

The fact is, I cannot count on my body structure being better than the other guy. It may well be...but it may not. So in my mind, a competent MAist will still cover those other bases....just in case.



Best,
Ron (let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater...)
Hi Ron,
No arguments here. I was trying to make the distinction between principles and tactics. Body placement and timing are tactics. So, definitely, when doing a technique, employ levels.

However, if you don't have the principles down, employing tactics or levels won't be nearly as effective. So, while you may have avoided the first strike by good body positioning, that second strike will most likely hit if you don't have kuzushi. Stepping deeper may not work because you might just be getting a better body positioning and still not be gaining kuzushi. However, if the teacher says step deeper to get you to gain a better kuzushi, then that's a different thing. It's getting you to work on a principle which tactics build upon. IMO, anyway.

Once principles are accomplished, tactics or levels can be employed. And strategy will dictate how it all goes together.

So, yeah, I agree. I'm just thinking (currently) that principles are first and tactics/levels are second for the learning stages.

Mark
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:18 AM   #28
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

And I kind of go with all in one...because as they are implemented, they must be all in one. Too much bifurcation (is that a word?) is bad, in my experience. Like you, still trying to put it all together in my head.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:06 AM   #29
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I think you mean self-deception-disorder...

B,
R
Hey Ron,

I sent you a PM. I had a question for you.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:08 PM   #30
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

oops! Yesterday was a pisser...I'll respond in a few ticks!

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:42 PM   #31
Budd
 
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

I think we're all trying to work it out in our heads and on the mat - history lessons only goes so far, telling people to go find the "real aiki" gets old after a while (for tellers and listeners, I'm sure) . . .

I still stand by my generic old "fit in/take the space before they can get there" --- plenty of levels to it (from hit 'em and throw 'em, to opposing tension and central pivoting them to their doom) to work on and refine.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:26 PM   #32
Rocky Izumi
Dojo: GUST Aikido Club
Location: Salwa, Kuwait
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

How about a totally different perspective here:

If you continue to attack Uke's centre, you will automatically move in Sankaku Irimi as Uke wards you off due to inertia, vector motion, and the fact that your movement will be incremental. But then, Uke will be 90 degrees and behind if they do a Tenkai. You want to get to 90 degrees and behind so you then have to do a Tenkan. Depending on who moves faster and has better motion, one or the other will get 90 degrees and behind and have the physical advantage. The winner of that competition will have to quickly transition to a technique to take advantage of the superior position or the result will be another standoff and the start of another series of motions.

Rock
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:16 AM   #33
Esaemann
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 92
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Phi,
Thanks for the Sensei Doran link. Totally different approach to the technique than I'm taking or being taught. I see from this video that one possible remedy is to turn your partner instead of escaping behind, which is what takes me too long.

Shaun,
Thanks for your thoughts. My thinking was that O'Sensei's technique in his later years seems to be beyond physical. Nothing mystical or throwing with the mind, but presence does seem to have something to do with it. However, since I'm not near that point, you are right in that I should focus on the physical or it is just a dance.

Eric
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Old 12-06-2007, 08:35 AM   #34
Paul Milburn
Dojo: Northern Aikido Association
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Re: Irimi/too slow problem

Your uke or partner should not be trying to turn in and oppose you just yet. Advise him/her to let you get a feel of the whole technique before creating a technical problem by outwitting you. There are two people making the technique, not just one!
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