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Old 11-23-2007, 12:33 PM   #1
Peter Chenier
Dojo: Summerland Aikikai
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Question Ukemi and Koshinage

Hi All!!

First I should preface this by saying I've only been training for a little over 6 months.

Last weekend I got to enjoy taking ukemi for koshinage, and lets just say I quit counting after about twenty times in a row

Now I admit my Ukemi is getting better, but overall it sucks for this technique. My Nage hangs on providing some support but I end up taking the brunt of the force on my side (Side of leg then hip and arm at the same time).

My question is should I be controlling my fall so that I come down arm and feet first (if possible) then back? Am I making sense?

Any tips would be appreciated.

Also any tips for practicing softer Ukemi in general would be appreciated

Cheers

Peter
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Old 11-23-2007, 03:33 PM   #2
MikeE
 
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Grab hold of nage with whatever hand is free (usually the one you could grip easily around his/her chest). Turn you head to look at nage. Breathe out. Repeat 10,000 times and it will get much easier

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
For Movement &
Aikido Bukou
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Old 11-23-2007, 04:06 PM   #3
aikidoc
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

relax. look at the info available on soft break falls.
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Old 11-23-2007, 06:25 PM   #4
Tim Mailloux
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Quote:
Peter Chenier wrote: View Post
Hi All!!

Also any tips for practicing softer Ukemi in general would be appreciated

Cheers

Peter
Generally the more of your body to make contact with the mat at the same time the better, that way the force is spread out over a much larger surface. But every teacher / orginazation has a different take on ukemi. Mine take take comes from my years in the USAF-WR/Birankai & Judo. But when it comes to koshinage, that is one of those techniques where uke is pretty much completly at nages mercy. It gets easier over time and you will get used to it.

IMO the quickest way to get used to hard falls would be to take a month of Judo
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:18 PM   #5
Stephen Webb
Dojo: Long Island Aikikai
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Make sure that you actually get the slap down when you go over, since that is the actual "break fall". I spent an hour doing koshi nage about a month ago, and it took about thirty minutes before I finally started to get everything down.

Also, at least where I practice, it helps if uke stays straight like a board, so that when nage throws you you naturally flip over, your arm flies out and hits the mat first, then the rest of your body follows.

One last thing: look out for your *ahem* parts when you fall on your side. I think that's my last big problem with koshi nage breakfalls.
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:51 AM   #6
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Every place does it differently, as stated above, so you'll have to sort through various answers and pick the ones that best fit your current training. Learning break falls / ukemi in general over the internet is not recommended. Having said that, I do have some suggestions from my perspective:

1 Buy a copy of Ellis Amdur's Ukemi from the ground up, grab a senior, watch it together, and try to implement in seperate practice. Learning from a video is never really recommended, but having been in some of his ukemi classes, I have to recommend it any way. Having a senior there can really help to work through some of the issues you are bound to run into.

2 Work on making your body curl. When I'm thrown in koshinage, I REALLY tuck /curl my head and upper body so that I'm looking back at nage almost even before my legs go over. This is the exact opposite of the stiff as a board crowd. I believe that ukemi should be opening me for sutemi when it comes to koshi throws.

a) If a judoka or someone used to competitive grappling is throwing you, they are coming down with you. To reverse them you once they've gotten the lift you need to curl and roll them through.

b) I like to not depend on nage's kindness. Even when giving up control I like to re-establish control at the same time.

c) I like to train to not need to grab for koshi ukemi...in my opinion, it develops a dependancy you can't count on, or that can give nage an additional handle for a lock once you hit the ground. I understand that it is a stage most have to go through (me too), but I don't always agree with it.

The more you curl the more possibilities open up, for sutemi, for rolling, for break fall to standing up immediately and gaining distance by using the straight leg.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:20 AM   #7
jxa127
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Ron,

Your ukemi for hip throws sounds pretty cool, but this is the first I've heard of it.

Is this something Ellis teaches? I'm of the "stiff as a board" camp, but I haven't tried other methods (yet?).

Regards,

-Drew

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-Drew Ames
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:11 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

No, but I use some of the things Ellis taught in it. I don't remember Ellis teaching specific ukemi for koshi at the seminar, but I do think what he taught can be applied there, and it seems to work.

Find someone who is good at koshi, and try his methods out slowly. I think you'll find some nice opportunities. Remember the counter he taught for iriminage?

A lot of my ukemi is yoshinkan based, with my own little ideosyncracies thrown in (like from stuff I've learned from Ellis at the seminars and other places). Some days it just depends on how I'm feeling too...I'm not 43 anymore!

I agree with some of the statements here and in the other thread...someone not good or not comfortable with koshi can mess up learning the ukemi. But once you've got a pretty basic method drilled in to just protect yourself, if you grab a good partner, you can find all kinds of interesting things. Anyhow, I tend not to koshi so much as to cut kesa giri with their arm so I don't have to load anyone on my hips. Loading bad when you want to stay mobile. Cutting good....and controlling an arm as in shiho, yonkajo, or even better, jujinage is even better. Less chance of giving your back and getting choked out!

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 11-30-2007 at 11:13 AM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-30-2007, 01:28 PM   #9
MikeLogan
 
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

How often is the aforementioned ukemi seminar offered? I want the dvd, but I would very much enjoy the class as well. Any Idea, Ron? thanks much,

michael.

If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.

- Thomas Hardy
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Old 11-30-2007, 01:42 PM   #10
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

You'd have to contact Ellis. I think he's not doing as much with aikido just now, but he's the one who'd know

You can find the DVDs and contact him through Edgework, at http://www.ellisamdur.com/. Check out this link:
http://www.ellisamdur.com/buy.html
for his budo related products. I highly recommend everything on that page, and he has a special offer to accomodate!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-01-2007, 08:59 PM   #11
jxa127
Dojo: Itten Dojo -- Mechanicsburg, PA
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Ron,

Cool stuff. I hope we get to train together again soon.

We've got a couple of people in my dojo who are really working on their hip throws, so I've been taking a bunch of that ukemi lately.

Regards,

-Drew

----
-Drew Ames
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Old 12-03-2007, 12:00 PM   #12
jonreading
 
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Physics will help you to learn sutemi.
1. Just like the guy who lays on a bed of spikes; surface area reduces pressure (PSI). I do not encourage students to learn to break fall by touching feet (or hands) first. touching feet (or hands) first will place a great amount of pressure into those extremities, which may result in bruising, jarring, or breaking bones. Your backside and back provide the greatest area over which to dispurse your energy.
2. It sounds like you are over-rotating in your sutemi. Ron posted a helpful tip for over rotation, by controlling your body rotation. You can always expand your body and slow the rotation process; it is more difficult to start in a slow rotation and speed up. You will force your head and shoulders through the throw quickly by looking at your partner. You can better control the speed of your torso and legs as they go they through the rotation once your head and shoulders pass first.
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Old 12-09-2007, 11:32 AM   #13
Charlie
 
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Quote:
Peter Chenier wrote: View Post
...My Nage hangs on providing some support but I end up taking the brunt of the force on my side (Side of leg then hip and arm at the same time).

My question is should I be controlling my fall so that I come down arm and feet first (if possible) then back? Am I making sense?

Any tips would be appreciated.

Also any tips for practicing softer Ukemi in general would be appreciated ...
Now take all the suggestions that have been made and try to logically fit them into how they would work in a fall like this one....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chEMF...eature=related

Regards,

Charlie B.

Charles Burmeister
Aikido Yoshinkan Yoseikai

"Calmness is trust in action"
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:23 PM   #14
Tim Mailloux
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Quote:
Charles Burmeister wrote: View Post
Now take all the suggestions that have been made and try to logically fit them into how they would work in a fall like this one....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chEMF...eature=related

Regards,

Charlie B.
That is really not that much different than Kata-garuma in Judo. Only in the judo version uke isn't making the throw that easy for tori / nage. Having done the Aikido and Judo versions I can say that the fall is also much harder in the judo version as uke does not have as much control during the fall.

The fall / ukemi itself is not very hard to do. It is all a mental exercize. The first time i was thrown this way in Aikido I had no idea it was coming and I took the fall just like any other fall. Knowing that I had already done it, and it wasn't bad, I never had any issue taking that ukemi again. Had I known what was coming the first time I am not so sure I could have taken the ukemi as well.
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Old 12-15-2007, 12:11 AM   #15
Aran Bright
Dojo: Griffith Aikido Yuishinkai
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Quote:
Charles Burmeister wrote: View Post
Now take all the suggestions that have been made and try to logically fit them into how they would work in a fall like this one....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chEMF...eature=related

Regards,

Charlie B.
He looked like he was cruzing through that fall, he basically bounced back onto his feet.

Being relaxed is so important.

http://brisbaneaikido.com

Brisbane Aikido Republic
Brisbane
Australia
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:22 AM   #16
mari
Dojo: Green Bay Aikikai
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
relax. look at the info available on soft break falls.
Do you think it is a good idea to try soft break fall from koshinage, if he has been practicing only for 6 months? I think it is too soon.. I think he should try to follow all the advise given above and practice more
Then practice some more and then exeprience the joy and beauty of koshinage
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Old 12-31-2007, 01:09 AM   #17
Walter Martindale
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Re: Ukemi and Koshinage

Preface: I learned ukemi by being thrown - many, many times by yondan and sandan judoka. However - initial instruction prior to this was... landing 1/2 way between side and back, "bottom" leg a little flexed at both hip and knee, "top" leg landing foot first, consciously keeping the knees apart to prevent thighs from causing compression to the sensitive "naughty bits". Vigorously slap mat with arm closest to mat JUST prior to torso hitting mat.

That said... practicing with experts who will throw you "correctly" will make it easier to take the ukemi as they will direct you towards the mat in a way that you will be able to handle. As your skill in ukemi improves, experts will throw you away and you will be left to your own devices to protect yourself as you land and recover from being thrown.

Sorry this probably wasn't much help...
Walter
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