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Old 11-06-2007, 09:51 PM   #126
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Sounds like some of the tall tales the American mountain men used to tell.
I'll give you the bear story...but the Oyama story had witnesses, police investigation, etc.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 11-06-2007, 10:22 PM   #127
dps
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

I think you guys need to reread the article.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/index?id=1239

"The master understands that the most difficult part of effective self-defense is to find that opening, whether because of a mistake on the part of the attacker, or by creating an opening through techinique or strategy."

"The difficult part is finding or creating the opening, not the strike itself."

David
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Old 11-07-2007, 12:27 AM   #128
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
So much so that he was sometimes called Godhand.

Funny thing, though: he trained in daito ryu under Kotaro Yoshida, who, I believe, introduced Morihei Ueshiba to Sokaku Takeda. So maybe he actually used an aiki technique to dispatch the yakuza, and not karate????

Also, Yoshida (I think it was he) was said to have killed a bear, but, of course, he used an iron fan....

David
You have snatched the pebble from my hand...LOL

A++ on the pop quiz Oyama Shihan was called Godhand and for good reasons...

William Hazen
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Old 11-07-2007, 03:50 AM   #129
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I think you guys need to reread the article.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/index?id=1239

"The master understands that the most difficult part of effective self-defense is to find that opening, whether because of a mistake on the part of the attacker, or by creating an opening through techinique or strategy."

"The difficult part is finding or creating the opening, not the strike itself."

David
That's what I said too, waaaaay back in post #3.

Ignatius
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:58 AM   #130
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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You have snatched the pebble from my hand...LOL

A++ on the pop quiz Oyama Shihan was called Godhand and for good reasons...
Masutatsu Oyama used to come to Birmingham, Alabama, where he had a good group. Parts of his "Strongest Karate" movies were made in Birmingham. He had two major students here, Paul Couch and Ron Epstein, who used to train with him in Atlanta. Oyama started coming here because of them.

Along with some others, including a guy who used to teach them, Couch and Epstein hosted Bruce Lee in his Green Hornet days, Chuck Norris, and, I think, Joe Lewis when they were champions. Because of Couch and Epstein's dedication, Oyama Shihan sent one of his top students, Yasuhiku Oyama (not directly related to Mas Oyama), to run a dojo here, which has stood on the same spot in Homewood since about 1973. I believe Y. Oyama (brother of Shigeru Oyama) won third place in one of the World knock-down, knock-out kumite competitions in Tokyo before he came here. He's very well-known internationally. He and Shigeru (sama) broke away from Kyokushin a long, long time ago and founded World Oyama Karate.

My early karate training was with Paul Couch, who was a former Marine and, at that time, a Jefferson County Sheriff's deputy. He was a training sergeant in the Marine reserves and once was listed as the oldest gunnery sergeant in the Marine Corps.

Epstein employed me for a few years in a warehouse he had and took a few opportunities to show me some karate. He showed me just the surface form of how he liked to fight in kumite, using his hips to drive uppercuts. He barely touched me but I felt incredible force going through my body and coming out my back. It was pretty scary. I can only imagine what Mas Oyama was capable of.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 11-07-2007, 10:03 AM   #131
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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"The difficult part is finding or creating the opening, not the strike itself."
I agree, basically, except that whatever technique the attacker uses creates its own openings. The nature of aiki is to adhere to and follow the ura of the attacker's kiai technique. Following that leads to the opportunity to strike in time with the attack as the two people move toward one another at high speed (irimi), multiplying the power of nage's strike, which the attacker "runs into."

The reason few people understand that is that we move right past the opportunity to strike and instead do some kind of throw. But the
"single blow" would be delivered in that first split second of the attacker's movement, rather than leading him into a throw.

Knowing that, and entering that way, the throws and joint locks become relatively easy, compared to not knowing it and thinking that the leading, traps, locks and throws are the essence of the art.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 11-07-2007, 11:56 AM   #132
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I agree, basically, except that whatever technique the attacker uses creates its own openings. The nature of aiki is to adhere to and follow the ura of the attacker's kiai technique. Following that leads to the opportunity to strike in time with the attack as the two people move toward one another at high speed (irimi), multiplying the power of nage's strike, which the attacker "runs into."
Hikitsuchi Sensei Demostrates a perfect example of this principle in another thread. Nishio Shihan often emulated Hikisuchi Sensei's Aikido Philosophy

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13518

Quote:
The reason few people understand that is that we move right past the opportunity to strike and instead do some kind of throw. But the
"single blow" would be delivered in that first split second of the attacker's movement, rather than leading him into a throw.

Knowing that, and entering that way, the throws and joint locks become relatively easy, compared to not knowing it and thinking that the leading, traps, locks and throws are the essence of the art.
I could not have said this any better. Sadly some Aikido practicioners ( and as a few outside observers have noted rather enthusiastically) have degraded thier practice into nothing more than "wrist grabbing" In our view any practice that removes Budo/Striking aspect from a 'technique" is nothing more than a dance...A technique only unfolds AFTER Irimi/Atemi and if your mind is focused on any technique a good uke will see this and counter/strike first. I spent last night in class helping folks open thier practice up and not narrow thier focus to avoiding/grabbing my fist/wrist or looking me in the eye... but to try and practice "whole being Irimi" much like Hikisuchi Shihan discusses in the video clips.

We all have a loooong way to go but I am still very stoked to be on this path. LOL

Good to see this thread coming back around.

William Hazen
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Old 11-07-2007, 05:34 PM   #133
Mattias Bengtsson
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Just recently watched a documentary on martial arts. This was on Krav Maga.
Don't recall the instructors name, only that he is/was one of the senior instructors (looked about 60-70) for the israeli special forces and he did use terms like "kill in one hit" with a straight face, and when he was demonstrating the techniques I certainly didn't feel that it was empty boasts.

Was kinda funny to see the hosts of the show get totally owned by someone attacking them with a rubber knife. For all their experience in the ring, on the street they would've died. (they did get bettar in the end of the show after getting some instructions in how to better defend themselves though)

And I think that it is important to understand that, like Krav Maga, Aikido is not for the ring, but is Budo, it is for the battlefield.
Maybe thats why we are more open to the possibility that there are techniques that are downright lethal, whereas someone with a background in a Sports Martial arts, are less believing.

I guess theres the reason why Ueshiba decided that Aikido shouldnt be used for sports, as it would "dumb down" the art and remove the "true techniques?"

Uke Iacta Est
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Old 11-09-2007, 03:56 AM   #134
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

"One of my teachers has taught me that you enter the do through the vehicle of the jutsu. In other (my) words, one uses the perfecting of killing techniques to progress along the way of perfecting one's life. There's danger, in my opinion, in striving too directly for spiritual enlightenment, without the tempering of striking to kill and being struck at to be killed (even when the blows are stopped just short of the target). It is often far too easy in these situations for the movements to lose their inherent "truth" as valid fighting techniques and to degenerate into little more than a choreographed dance sequence. Learning to give and receive the combative intention is vital. Yet, there's equal danger in concentrating merely on learning to disable and kill without transforming the techniques into a confrontation with the soul."

The Meaning of the Martial Arts: Some Reflections Along the Way
by Diane Skoss

http://www.koryu.com/library/dskoss6.html

David
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Old 11-09-2007, 07:17 AM   #135
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Hello

Not to be a party pooper, but really, is that not the essence of all fighting.
That is why all the fencing manuscript are as much about time and distance, true place, Vor&Narch and so on that they are about actual techniques.
You will find that is hoplistic literature across Europe from the 14th to modern days.

Is it not like saying that the essence of fencing is staying alive while cutting our opponent down?

You can describe anything from tai chi to mma that will remain true. And so it should be. It is just stating the strategy and a very generic tactics of fighting.

The way you gain the "true place" (I the place where you can deliver a technique and where the choice of technique does not mater) is only achieved by a set of specific techniques, which will be different according to a given art set of tactical tenants.

In my opinion the real difficulty is in how to get to that true place safely.

I do not really agree with MMA tactical tenants (which are very valid given the context in which MMA happens) but MMA is a fantastic way to train and to experiment how to get to that "true place".

Phil.

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Old 11-12-2007, 10:43 PM   #136
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

The article was excellent, but I think it misses the point.

Humans are easy to kill, if one strikes the right places, though it is difficult to bring one's self to kill. It is easier to kill in a suicide attack, while it is more difficult to kill without one's self being killed.

What if one's Lord orders one to bring a prisoner back alive? I believe this is the origin of the art.

The capability of killing the opponent definitely gives the confidence necessary to execute technique, but the goal is not the mere opening of a line of attack, but rather the subduing of the opponent without having to kill him. If one must commit seppuku because one has killed the prisoner ...
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:05 AM   #137
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

99% Hog-Wash 1% ARE YOU KIDDING ME
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Old 11-17-2007, 09:12 AM   #138
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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99% Hog-Wash 1% ARE YOU KIDDING ME
Earlier in this thread, I got involved in a discussion that might be more appropriately labeled "aikido is 99% strikes and 1% locks, throws and holds". My point was that the reality of aikido technique is atemi, while throws, holds and locks are the surface appearance, that those techniques are made possible by the positioning and timing used to get into position for atemi.

The truth is, you can't deliver a deadly blow without being in perfect position with perfect timing, so I guess the title of this thread is really not very accurate: "Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation".

In fact, as budo, aikido is almost 100% preparation and maybe a tenth of a hundredth of a percent of anything else.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 11-17-2007, 10:15 AM   #139
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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99% Hog-Wash 1% ARE YOU KIDDING ME
Yawn...Maybe you'll back up your opinion with a rational discourse on the subject...

William Hazen
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:25 AM   #140
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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99% Hog-Wash 1% ARE YOU KIDDING ME
How so?

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Old 11-17-2007, 10:28 AM   #141
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

From the article:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/index?id=1239

"Similarly, 99% of your time has been spent practicing or preparing yourself to create a response to that one fraction of a second where all truth lies - the strike. Yet you did not spend much time on the strike itself; it came when it was needed with little effort. The effort was was expended on the preparation, the ‘readying.' The more evolved one becomes, the more evident it becomes that the strike may not be needed. Yet for the master of Aikido, this is a freely chosen decision. Aikido students who speak so proudly of their art as ‘nonviolent' and ‘peaceful' are actually referring to the mind of a very highly evolved master who has the internal confidence to nonviolently maintain control of the external influences despite the level of danger. The irony often lost on those students is that this confidence is a result of having the capability of ending the threat at any moment with one strike. It is the capability to destroy the threat that grants the Aikido master the luxury of saving the enemy's life. He may simply ‘show' the enemy his opening without necessarily exploiting it. This is a highly evolved level of any martial art which takes years of practice and practical experience. The beginners who claim they are practicing this are, frankly, talking over their heads. A proper sensei teaches the spiritual factors but also the physical realities. He or she gives you not merely an art of striking, but an art of living freely.

"Let me say it again: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation. We give 99% of our time to 1% of the art so that there is no inhibition, no hesitation when the essence of time approaches. We are fully prepared. Thus, we are the masters of our own fate."

David
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:03 PM   #142
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Yawn...Maybe you'll back up your opinion with a rational discourse on the subject...

William Hazen
Only since you asked so nicely. The article as I understand it says that the practice of AIkido spends (or should spend) 99% of its time practicing the 1% of Budo which is essentially finding the opening. While I recognize the importance of finding openings this philosophy is like telling a boxer to spend 99% of his time practicing foot work and fainting while only 1% of the time learning punching. Uppercuts, hooks, leads, jabs..ect.

The footwork, fainting , entering or whatever else you want to call it goes together with the strike. The strike frequently creates the opening, this holy grail the author so desperately seeks.

There are dozens of different kinds of strikes each with its own concerns. hand position(or foot position for that matter), area that makes contact ect. Punches where mentioned and even a punch needs to be delivered correctly if you don't want broken knuckles.
I also love the talk of hitting vital areas as if every such strike is a killing blow and its so easy to do. Aside from a hard strike to the throat do you really think you are going to kill a strong athletic person with one strike. Not saying it couldn't happen but you would need to practice striking far more than 1% of the time to develop such acuracy and power. An upward strike to the solar plexus is much more dangerous than a straight on strike to the same area. Do you think this kind of strike is learned without practice. At a high speed of combat just hitting the solar plexus can be hard enough.
Creating openings is very important but the importance of learning to stike properly is equally important. I spent 20 years in "hard style" striking arts before I came to Aikido. A lot of individuals who join Aikido come from another style initially where they learned there striking skills. Maybe this article takes this as a given and if so I can see the focus on creating openings(though still not 99% of the time) . But if you start in Aikido with no striking background some time needs to be spent learning at least some basic striking philosopy/techniques to make sure your strike doesnt cause more damage to yourself than your attacker!
Hope I didn't bore you futher. YAWN!
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:53 PM   #143
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
Only since you asked so nicely. The article as I understand it says that the practice of AIkido spends (or should spend) 99% of its time practicing the 1% of Budo which is essentially finding the opening. While I recognize the importance of finding openings this philosophy is like telling a boxer to spend 99% of his time practicing foot work and fainting while only 1% of the time learning punching. Uppercuts, hooks, leads, jabs..ect.

The footwork, fainting , entering or whatever else you want to call it goes together with the strike. The strike frequently creates the opening, this holy grail the author so desperately seeks.

There are dozens of different kinds of strikes each with its own concerns. hand position(or foot position for that matter), area that makes contact ect. Punches where mentioned and even a punch needs to be delivered correctly if you don't want broken knuckles.
I also love the talk of hitting vital areas as if every such strike is a killing blow and its so easy to do. Aside from a hard strike to the throat do you really think you are going to kill a strong athletic person with one strike. Not saying it couldn't happen but you would need to practice striking far more than 1% of the time to develop such acuracy and power. An upward strike to the solar plexus is much more dangerous than a straight on strike to the same area. Do you think this kind of strike is learned without practice. At a high speed of combat just hitting the solar plexus can be hard enough.
Creating openings is very important but the importance of learning to stike properly is equally important. I spent 20 years in "hard style" striking arts before I came to Aikido. A lot of individuals who join Aikido come from another style initially where they learned there striking skills. Maybe this article takes this as a given and if so I can see the focus on creating openings(though still not 99% of the time) . But if you start in Aikido with no striking background some time needs to be spent learning at least some basic striking philosopy/techniques to make sure your strike doesnt cause more damage to yourself than your attacker!
Hope I didn't bore you futher. YAWN!
This does not bore me at all and pretty much goes along with what I believe....I think the article does take it as a givin you know how to strike....

I just wanted you to explain your reasons I enjoy the diversity of experiance here.

William Hazen
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Old 11-17-2007, 01:12 PM   #144
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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This does not bore me at all and pretty much goes along with what I believe....I think the article does take it as a givin you know how to strike....

I just wanted you to explain your reasons I enjoy the diversity of experiance here.

William Hazen
I too enjoy the diversity of experience here.
I don't take it as a given that individuals know how to strike, because I have seen far too many who don't. I don't know if you have had similar observations. Thank you for your time
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Old 11-17-2007, 01:13 PM   #145
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

"In Aikido the goal is always the strike; however, the key is to find the proper opening.

In Aikido, one punch, metsubishi, a death-dealing blow, is the reality!"

What the author is saying is that the goal is to immobilize your attacker with Aikido, only after the attacker is immobilized so that he can no longer attack or defend himself, then you deliver the final stike. Atemi is used during the application of the Aikido technique to help immobilize him. Only after he can not move do you deliver metsubishi. No sparring, no boxing, no moving about.

David

Last edited by dps : 11-17-2007 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 11-17-2007, 01:41 PM   #146
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
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"In Aikido the goal is always the strike; however, the key is to find the proper opening.

Only after he can not move do you deliver metsubishi. David
I thought after he can not move you were supose to deliver mercy.
Your way gets you jail time, my way could make a friend. It's a choice
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Old 11-17-2007, 03:13 PM   #147
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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I thought after he can not move you were supose to deliver mercy.
Again from the article:

"The more evolved one becomes, the more evident it becomes that the strike may not be needed. Yet for the master of Aikido, this is a freely chosen decision. Aikido students who speak so proudly of their art as ‘nonviolent' and ‘peaceful' are actually referring to the mind of a very highly evolved master who has the internal confidence to nonviolently maintain control of the external influences despite the level of danger. The irony often lost on those students is that this confidence is a result of having the capability of ending the threat at any moment with one strike. It is the capability to destroy the threat that grants the Aikido master the luxury of saving the enemy's life. He may simply ‘show' the enemy his opening without necessarily exploiting it. This is a highly evolved level of any martial art which takes years of practice and practical experience. The beginners who claim they are practicing this are, frankly, talking over their heads. A proper sensei teaches the spiritual factors but also the physical realities. He or she gives you not merely an art of striking, but an art of living freely."

David

Last edited by dps : 11-17-2007 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 11-17-2007, 03:22 PM   #148
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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I thought after he can not move you were supose to deliver mercy.
http://www.koryu.com/library/eamdur3.html

Setsuninto--Katsujinken
by Ellis Amdur

"Setsuninto (the sword that takes life) and katsujinken (the sword that gives life) are concepts which attempt to differentiate between the use of the sword for murderous ends as opposed to its use to protect people or to preserve the order of society.

These two phrases give rise to a variety of interpretations. At its most naive is the idea that, having power, one can choose to use it either to hurt others or lead them from evil paths. This is sometimes a fantasy of aikido devotees: that when attacked, the skillful practitioner, who could easily annihilate his or her attacker, moves in such a way that not only is the attack neutralized, but the attacker realizes the error of his ways and turns from violence. I call this naive because, even though it is sometimes possible, it presupposes that one's attacker will always be far inferior in skill, and even more unlikely, that being humbled and even shamed by one far superior, an attacker is likely to undergo a profound change of personality."



David

Last edited by dps : 11-17-2007 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 11-17-2007, 05:49 PM   #149
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
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"
What the author is saying is that the goal is to immobilize your attacker with Aikido, only after the attacker is immobilized so that he can no longer attack or defend himself, then you deliver the final stike. . Only after he can not move do you deliver metsubishi. David
Should one ever get to the point of mastery that your attacker is immobilized so that he can no longer attack or defend himself show some mercy. The reality of life is once an attack is nuetralized it is best to " Get out of Doge" rather than deliving the metsubishi. Lets try to keep it real.
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:25 PM   #150
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
The article as I understand it says that the practice of AIkido spends (or should spend) 99% of its time practicing the 1% of Budo which is essentially finding the opening. While I recognize the importance of finding openings this philosophy is like telling a boxer to spend 99% of his time practicing foot work and fainting while only 1% of the time learning punching.
To me it seemed more like it would be akin to telling a boxer to practice learning when he or she can and can't use their available tools of self-defense 99% of the time and learning those various tools 1% of the time. It seemed to me like the matter of how one exploits some given opening was left as being of minimal importance, like it would sort out all by itself. On one hand, I can't disagree with the idea that this is possible. I've known more fighters who have never trained in "striking arts," but who can thow a punch good enough to knock most folks out (or close enough ot be called ok). They don't know "proper" form; but none of them that I know of have broken bones in their hands...and a few of them have scrapped it up a bit. You might say they followed the model of this article (assuming I'm remembering it well enough) and, learning as they went, looked for an opening to strike and the strike itself came mostly without any thought...it sort of presented itself.
On the other hand, I've also seen terrible strikes which were lucky to land on their targets or glanced off frivolously. I agree that people should train in how to strike, with their fists or otherwise. I remember one friend spraining his wrist slightly on my heavy bag because he had no real sense of what that feels like (he hit the very dense bottom of the bag too ). I don't know, maybe the speaker takes striking abilities for granted or maybe he equates all techniques through the simple word "strike." When I take "strike" to mean any technique, it makes more sense to me. I only have a hard time with the very specific percentages, but I assume they aren't meant to be taken too literally and are meant to point out the importance of having an opening through which to deliver some action: no opening; not even a perfectly thrown strike can land; no chance. An opening with a poorly thrown strike can still be enough to offer some chance of over-powering an attacker...heh...or really tick the person off.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-17-2007 at 06:29 PM.

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