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Old 11-13-2007, 04:15 PM   #76
Aiki1
 
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You may want to consult Dr. Einstein on that one. Proving that gravity was a fictitious force caused by the warping of spacetime by incident mass was the underlayment of general relativity and the equivalence of time with space. If space is considered as a field grid, mass warps it so that near a defined mass the shape of space changes and grid lines are farther apart than where mass is not. The effect is that the same spatial grid is traversed in the same time, but because the shape of space is skewed the nearer one gets to a mass, velocity apparently increases.
Erick - well done - I mean it. That was a great explanation!

Quote:
Let me give you the basic epistemological equation:

[what I already know] + [what I already know] = 0

If you are intent on only ever knowing things in terms you already know you will never learn anything.
And again, well said.

Larry Novick
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Old 11-13-2007, 05:20 PM   #77
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
Erick - well done - I mean it. That was a great explanation!
...
And again, well said.
Heck,a broke clock is right twice a day... That's my quota, boys.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-13-2007, 05:36 PM   #78
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
Well, that is the arrogance that I was referring to - the Fact that You Know that "under those terms" it "does not exist."
You know I love ya, Brother Larry...

But is it only arrogant when the other guy "knows" it doesn't exist, yet not when you "know" it does?

Certainly, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But neither is evidence of effect necessarily evidence of cause. Some day, after they've figured out every other thing on their list and find themselves with a little extra time on their hands, scientists might get around to some serious study on this topic. (Don't hold your breath.) But I suspect that their discoveries will have little effect on either camp.

Maybe we're talking about completely different things here. This is precisely why I've largely given up on talking about all of this stuff with people who don't train with me. The words sound awfully similar, but their meanings couldn't be more different. Without that direct connection, I've found that words are largely useless to convey the real heart of this stuff.

I can do and teach everything I know (so far) about Aiki Budo without relying on "ki." Those things that others attribute to "ki," I can (and do) explain in different ways (i.e. physics, anatomy, kinesiology, and psychology).

Am I progressing? I hope so.

Maybe "ki" is just a poetic metaphor for "doing everything just right."

That said, I know there are untangible things that certainly seem to exist. Like Jostein Gaarder said in "Sophie's World"...

Quote:
"...I've operated on many clever brains but I've never seen a single thought."
I can definitely "feel" myself think. Sometimes I can even "see" the pictures conveyed by those thoughts. I can also feel the intent of others when I'm paying attention. (Hell, some people can smell colors.)

Can I prove what I just claimed? Dunno. Depends on what constitutes "proof" to the beholder.

Is this "ki?" I have no idea.

Hell, once we get to a point where we can see/measure thought, intent, "ki," etc., they may turn out to be something completely different from what we initially assumed.

Michael Hacker
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Old 11-13-2007, 08:10 PM   #79
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
You know I love ya, Brother Larry...

But is it only arrogant when the other guy "knows" it doesn't exist, yet not when you "know" it does?
Yo Bro - see, to me yours is an honest post, not just someone catagorically denying someone else's reality.... in answer, I had indeed thought about your point, and in my own self-interest, to avoid self-righteousness, I posted:

Quote:
"An interesting thing about life is, for every truth that is real for one person, somewhere in the Universe the exact opposite is likely to be true for someone else. And that somewhere may be very close at hand."

I personally accept many beliefs, many perspectives, and I have had many experiences outside of the "norm."
My "objection" isn't that someone doesn't believe in Ki - that's none of my business. My objection, if you will, is that they completely deny anothers' reality and experience. They then try and convince others that there is no other way to look at it but how They see it. That to me is bad news.

Quote:
Snip............ Can I prove what I just claimed? Dunno. Depends on what constitutes "proof" to the beholder.
Exactly. :-)

Larry Novick
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:10 AM   #80
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

There is a reason I always had more respect for agnostics than for atheists.

Best,
Ron

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Old 11-14-2007, 08:33 AM   #81
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

for the OP without the rant and etc....
Just be heavy down low when the big guy is grabbing you (or 2 guys), feet on the Tatami or not.
Just be heavy downunder and let that weight smash through the tatami and deep into the earth.
Put simple, in few words.

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Old 11-14-2007, 09:23 AM   #82
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Matthew Bowen wrote: View Post
The fact remains that almost the entire scientific community does not believe it to have any credibility outside the area of metaphor - this is simply because its effects cannot be properly observed and recorded, and, thus, there is no reason to believe in its existence - there is no reason to believe in something that cannot be verified through means of sound theory or experiment. Any logical, thinking individual would come to the same conclusion.
Are these the same "logical, thinking" individuals who were the "almost entire scientific community" of their era that believed the Earth was flat for a long time (I bet they had "sound theory" to back up their belief), and became quite upset when anyone proposed otherwise?

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Old 11-14-2007, 09:38 AM   #83
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
Yo Bro - see, to me yours is an honest post...
I'd say their posts were honest as well. (Just not as sweet and intelligent as mine.)

Has anyone taken the time to specifically define their terms in this discussion? Without that, you might as well be talking about two separate things.

X: This car is blue.
Y: No it isn't, you ^$&#! moron! The tires are obviously BLACK! What are you? BLIND or just STUPID?
X: Oh YEAH?!?!? Why I oughtta...

Quote:
My "objection" isn't that someone doesn't believe in Ki - that's none of my business. My objection, if you will, is that they completely deny anothers' reality and experience. They then try and convince others that there is no other way to look at it but how They see it. That to me is bad news.
Perhaps that's just how things are in their universe.

You did, however, suggest to someone that they are not progressing because of their beliefs.

What you're talking about seems, albeit on a much smaller level, very similar to the sort of thinking that has lead to bad juju in The Bigger Society. I could name examples, but I don't suspect I really need to.

If anyone is convinced by anything I say, shame on them.

Michael Hacker
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:42 AM   #84
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Mathew McDowell wrote: View Post
Just be heavy downunder and let that weight smash through the tatami and deep into the earth.
Some of us are just built that way naturally.

As my high school music teacher once said to me when I caught him changing pants off-stage during a musical rehearsal, "Contrary to popular belief, all men are not created equal."

Michael Hacker
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:50 AM   #85
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
Some of us are just built that way naturally.

As my high school music teacher once said to me when I caught him changing pants off-stage during a musical rehearsal, "Contrary to popular belief, all men are not created equal."
It has got to help.. lol Puts a whole new advantage on being grounded I guess... The onsen really explains the well grounded Aikidoka

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Old 11-14-2007, 11:16 AM   #86
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

on the topic of groundedness <doffs hat to OP>, the ground has to be used to move and for contact with other things, one does not have to be visibly stuck to it in order for that to occur. So there is nothing mysterious about being "grounded" and "light" at the same time---what is not clear is how to train to be like that :-)

As for being picked up by 2 big guys (who, presumably, lack the development resplendent in oneself), it is not pleasant to hold someone who has this training---after a short brain fart, the most imperative reaction seems to be to let go before something bad happens. When one is held off the ground, there is still a connection to the person(s) holding one, which is almost as good, certainly more than enough to use.

Really (unless I am badly mistaken late at night), just two points immobile relative to one another over the period of time for the damage to occur are needed to pass a nice force vector through. Whether one point is the ground on which the other person is effectively incompressibly standing too (directly or indirectly), or part of the person themselves, is a matter of quantity not essence. The conduit (your body) needs to be trained to use this.
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Old 11-14-2007, 12:20 PM   #87
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
I'd say their posts were honest as well. (Just not as sweet and intelligent as mine.)
I was talking about Self-honesty.... :-)

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You did, however, suggest to someone that they are not progressing because of their beliefs.
Individual case because of attitude, not content.

Quote:
What you're talking about seems, albeit on a much smaller level, very similar to the sort of thinking that has lead to bad juju in The Bigger Society. I could name examples, but I don't suspect I really need to.
Exactly. :-)

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Old 11-14-2007, 12:23 PM   #88
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I was talking about Self-honesty....
We're always honest to ourselves... especially when we're not.

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Individual case because of attitude, not content.
But how do you know he isn't?

Michael Hacker
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Old 11-14-2007, 12:27 PM   #89
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
But how do you know he isn't?
True, everything is relative....

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Old 11-14-2007, 12:30 PM   #90
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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True, everything is relative....
Even things being relative? :-)

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Old 11-14-2007, 12:40 PM   #91
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Even things being relative? :-)
Answering in accord with the scientific paradigm presented: in this case, I would think that one would be learning whatever there is to learn within the limits of the imposed structure. Even then there could be other influences, but given the rigidity of the communication, the conclusion I would draw would be that the severity of the intolerance would limit the ability to willingly go outside the intellectually known universe. In this case.

Of course, anything is possible, relatively speaking.... :-)

Larry Novick
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:15 PM   #92
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
My "objection" isn't that someone doesn't believe in Ki - that's none of my business. My objection, if you will, is that they completely deny anothers' reality and experience. They then try and convince others that there is no other way to look at it but how They see it. That to me is bad news.
And I'm sure you deny that invisible pink unicorns live in your back garden, but I bet you don't object to that. Why don't you believe it? Probably because, really, there's no actual evidence for it. The same goes for ki.

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
Are these the same "logical, thinking" individuals who were the "almost entire scientific community" of their era that believed the Earth was flat for a long time (I bet they had "sound theory" to back up their belief), and became quite upset when anyone proposed otherwise?
No, I think you'll find that the scientists were the ones proposing these new ideas (orbiting the Sun, et al), and religious authorities were suppressing them. Although, Ptolemy produced a map of a globular Earth as early as 140AD Greece.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
There is a reason I always had more respect for agnostics than for atheists.

Best,
Ron
I'm an atheist and I think atheists, generally, believe that adding deities to the equation creates more problems than it solves. Sure, it explains how the universe started, but how did the deity get there in the first place? How has it come to have the power to create the universe? Using the existence of a deity to answer our questions is a bit of a cop out, in my opinion, espescially when there's no good reason to believe they exist in the first place. (You might say the existence of the universe is one reason, but there's equally enough evidence to suggest that it was, infact, created by a tribe of tea cosies living in the dimensional planes of Zork).
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:40 PM   #93
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Matthew Bowen wrote: View Post
And I'm sure you deny that invisible pink unicorns live in your back garden, but I bet you don't object to that. Why don't you believe it? Probably because, really, there's no actual evidence for it. The same goes for ki.
If I had claimed that there were pink unicorns in my garden, that example might be relevent, but since I haven't, I don't think it will be helpful to go there.

As far as Ki goes, the only present "evidence" or "proof" is experiential, as far as I can tell. That is indeed subjective, like some things in life are. In the end, in my world, everyone has the right to and should decide for themselves. Purely from reading your responses here, it seems, at least, that you think you have the right to conclusively decide for everyone, because quantifiable scientific evidence is the only and final proof of what is real.I don't agree, and my daily experience for 25 years backs that up - in my world.

All I can do is point to what was already said by someone else:

Quote:
Depends on what constitutes "proof" to the beholder.

Larry Novick
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Old 11-14-2007, 11:31 PM   #94
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Matthew Bowen wrote: View Post
And I'm sure you deny that invisible pink unicorns live in your back garden, but I bet you don't object to that. Why don't you believe it? Probably because, really, there's no actual evidence for it. The same goes for ki.
Let me put this more acutely. If you and I were to meet, I have no evidence that you are a conscious being, and not an automaton. But I KNOW that you are in fact a conscious being. Why? Because I have these things that are called mirror neurons that make me perceive you to be so, same as I have neurons to make me perceive certain different wavelengths of light and differential spatial parallax to discern depth of field. What a wasteful and profligate blind chance, to make me perceive a reality of you being a person that is not actually there.

Or, conversely, I could actually believe that the incidents of my perception actually tell me something about a reality beyond myself, and that my perceptions are attuned to real events that occur, or else why would I have the apparatus giving me all these perceptions to process?

There are two basic ways of perceiving the world -- the proverbial fox and hedgehog described by Archilochus, nearly three thousand years ago: the fox knows many things, the hedgehog knows one big thing. We in the West tend to have been taught by our foxes, The Chinese were taught by hedgehogs. The fox and the hedgehog look at the same thing and see it different ways. The truth lies in both perspectives.

Quote:
Matthew Bowen wrote: View Post
I'm an atheist and I think atheists, generally, believe that adding deities to the equation creates more problems than it solves.
Where did the Deity get into the discussion? I perceive there are issues unspoken.

Quote:
Matthew Bowen wrote: View Post
Using the existence of a deity to answer our questions is a bit of a cop out, in my opinion, espescially when there's no good reason to believe they exist in the first place. (You might say the existence of the universe is one reason, but there's equally enough evidence to suggest that it was, infact, created by a tribe of tea cosies living in the dimensional planes of Zork).
A notable observer recently commented on the "modern self-limitation of reason" as holding that "only the kind of certainty resulting from the interplay of mathematical and empirical elements can be considered scientific." For all its technical prowess he pointed out that it represented a real "reduction of the radius of science and reason, one which needs to be questioned." He concluded that we have to "overcome the self-imposed limitation of reason to the empirically falsifiable."

But science cannot falsify the mind. It is an insoluble problem in scientific terms because that which sees, cannot be seen. It is the invisible that actually makes reality visible. To deny or falsify the mind would deny the very thing that purposes to know scientific truth. Science is inherently purposeful activity, but science has moved far from merely rigorously disregarding purpose for reasons of discipline in its inquiry (as LaPlace did). That salutary disregard was necessary to its method, but has passed into a dysfunctional contempt.

As Whitehead said: "Those who devote themselves to the purpose of proving that there is no purpose constitute an interesting object for study."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:52 AM   #95
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Where did the Deity get into the discussion? I perceive there are issues unspoken.
Blame Ron, he did one of his drive by thread shootings and opened the floodgates to a whole new level of contention (Bad Ron)

Bit concerned that the "evidence for ki" has gone down the twin highway of "you have to consider the whole" and "you can't explain everything so there must be something". Come on people, Eric has done a bang-up job of presenting his arguments with some rigor, don't let him down by aiding him with "it's obvious because... just because right" mingled in with your own belief structures.

Getting back to Eric's hedgehog, yes there is a tendency towards minutia over considering a gestalt - just look at how medical research is protrayed in the media where one crummy gene normally gets all the blame for a person's failings followed a few weeks later by an oops, not quite.

However, there are very solid, decent reasons for this approach as swallowing an entire hegehog is normally impossible and makes you feel a bit sick. With most arguments for ki as force in it's own right, there is a tendency to answer questions in two main ways
a) You haven't practiced long enough/in the right way/with such a body (delete as applicable) to properly understand
b) You can't consider ki in such a simplistic way you have to consider it "holistically" (which must be one of the must sinned against words in the English laguage these days)

So, give me a bite-sized bit of Ki which demonstrates the principles you personally attribute to ki (fully explained and described please so there's no confusion) and I'll happily have a go.
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Old 11-15-2007, 07:43 AM   #96
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
If I had claimed that there were pink unicorns in my garden, that example might be relevent, but since I haven't, I don't think it will be helpful to go there.
I meant that you probably don't believe that invisible pink unicorns living in your garden because there's no reason to do so, but for ki...

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Let me put this more acutely. If you and I were to meet, I have no evidence that you are a conscious being, and not an automaton. But I KNOW that you are in fact a conscious being. Why? Because I have these things that are called mirror neurons that make me perceive you to be so, same as I have neurons to make me perceive certain different wavelengths of light and differential spatial parallax to discern depth of field. What a wasteful and profligate blind chance, to make me perceive a reality of you being a person that is not actually there.
Absolutely you have no evidence that I'm not an automation, but the scenario of me being an automation is far less likely than me being someone typing to you from the UK. Humans do have to make assumptions and try to take the best action depending on what is the most likely scenario - if we didn't, the French might not have even turned up to Agincourt because they might've not bothered to act on the assumption that the English wanted to seige them. However, we still need to make sure that our assumptions are based on sound reasoning.

I'm not going to comment more on the deity stuff because I think this thread's been derailed enough already.

Last edited by Toothpaste : 11-15-2007 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 11-15-2007, 08:43 AM   #97
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Matthew Bowen wrote: View Post
I'm an atheist and I think atheists, generally, believe that adding deities to the equation creates more problems than it solves. Sure, it explains how the universe started, but how did the deity get there in the first place? How has it come to have the power to create the universe? Using the existence of a deity to answer our questions is a bit of a cop out, in my opinion, espescially when there's no good reason to believe they exist in the first place. (You might say the existence of the universe is one reason, but there's equally enough evidence to suggest that it was, infact, created by a tribe of tea cosies living in the dimensional planes of Zork).
Hmmm...I'm afraid you missed my point entirely. I was not promoting the existance of G(g)od.

Best,
Ron

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Old 11-15-2007, 08:53 AM   #98
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Ian Hurst wrote: View Post
Blame Ron, he did one of his drive by thread shootings and opened the floodgates to a whole new level of contention (Bad Ron)
Actually, as I just stated to Matthew, I was in no way promoting the existence of G(g)od. What I was doing, was highlighting the difference between

I cannot prove it, therefore it doesn't exist

and

I cannot prove it, therefore I just don't know. If further evidence should come along, I'll be willing to consider it.

Significant difference in mindset, and it has nothing to do with what I or anyone else believes relative to G(g)d, K(k)i or any particular subject.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that such intelligent people could miss that boat by such a wide mark.

Best,
Ron ('Common, everyone knows that invisible pink unicorns don't live in your back yard...they live in the dimensional planes of Zork)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 11-15-2007 at 08:58 AM.

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Old 11-15-2007, 09:51 AM   #99
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

You're still a bad man - you know mentioning the "g" word does for discourse what myxomatosis does for rabbits. Anyway, just to add further oil to the burning waters
Quote:
...I cannot prove it, therefore it doesn't exist
and
I cannot prove it, therefore I just don't know. If further evidence should come along, I'll be willing to consider it...
As far as I'm aware, a central tenement concerning "g" in all its guises is that proof is wrong and even contrary to belief - it's faith thats the cornerstone.... so taking this to it's usual internet extremes - does this mean you have to believe in ki before it can work?
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Old 11-15-2007, 09:59 AM   #100
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

The world "works" whether we believe it or like it or not. It just is. If someone has the mechanics of a throw correct, it doesn't matter if I or they believe in ki...the throw works. If the person being thrown is honest in their attack and reception. Which is why taking the ukemi is so important.

I know squat all about ki. I am beginning (finally, after 14 years or so of training ) to get a small clue about body structure. When people I respected started speaking about it on internet forums, it sounded different from what I was familiar with. So I didn't say "it's not true, there is no such thing as ki", or "we already do that", or "Prove it...go fight in the UFC". I got off my butt, went and felt it in a few different places, tried to be honest with myself about what I felt, and made my decisions based on how it affected me in my practice.

I still know squat all about ki.

And again, *I* never mentioned the G word until others brought it up. I simply highlighted two different states of mind.

Best,
Ron (driving by, and out! )

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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