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Old 11-13-2007, 03:32 PM   #1
Christopher Gee
 
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Kaiten nage with a bang....

My Sensei gave me the opportunity to teach the other day. The influences I have gained from iai and kenjutsu are obviously percollating into my Aiki.

When teaching kaiten, I first pointed about that the prinicple of sankaku must be used. What I mean is three points of contact as nage (two hands and hip) and breaking the kuzushi sankaku on our uke.

I powered through with my close thigh (creating that third point on contact) but stamping my foot through. I felt very stable and that the throw had 'more bang per buck'. I was having a poke through Ozawa Sensei 'Kendo - The definitive guide' and the table on page 132 shows that potentially the increase in body weight can be upto 13x. Incredible. Possibly a very useful tool...?

Any thoughts on power generation that might not seem typically aiki please share. Particularly those from the Judo and Kendo communities.

Yoroshiku onegaishimasu.

Heiho wa heiho nari - Otake Risuke
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Old 11-13-2007, 07:46 PM   #2
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

In Jujutsu, you sometimews stamp your foot when doing say, a hip throw - it worksI

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Old 11-14-2007, 02:59 AM   #3
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

I'm a kendoka....

Yup, fumi komi (stamping footwork) can add an incredible amount of power into your move; i find it is particularly applicable in techniques like irimi ikkyo, there's just no stopping it.

For me at least it has (temporarily) made my aikido probably a little on the strong side (meaning a bit bashy boshy ) but i'm sure it will improve it overall in the long run.

Ozawa Sensei is really cool; good teacher and writer of the cracking book you just mentioned.

Aikido and kendo both come from sword work IMHO they are sister arts with things such as "seme" mentioned in kendo being directly applicable in aiki, using the hara to cut and to kiai etc.

The sraightness of kendo has contaminated my aiki a little though...

Learning some MJER just now which i can see many more things that can almost be cut-copy-pasted into aikido, which isn't surprising really!

Peace and love

Jo
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:34 AM   #4
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

I started iai at around the same time as aikido as it's a part of our aikido syllabus to know some. I'd consider the iaido to be maybe 5-10% of what I learned over the last ten years. So a few yearsa go I decided to 'learn iaido properly' whatever that means, trouble was there wasn't any iaido here so I did kendo instead (lots of fun). I've recently begun to learn MJER in what I'd consider to be a proper way.

Interestingly, the instructor at the MJER seminar I was at last weeknd mentioned that learning two or three arts at the same time is a bad idea as it gets confusing and muddled. I think I agree with him, you should probably have a good foundation in one art before you start another (if you intend to take it seriously), for me at least its taken ten years before I've been happy with the foundation I have in aikido to start looking seriously at other arts. By which I mean that visiting other places and cross training occasionally or going to seminars isn't the same thing as serious study for at least a few years on a regular basis with a specific teacher.

It was interesting to me to see that it was more my kendo habits that crept into the MJER last weekend than my aikido ones, reckon I've got the aikido pretty well compartmentalised, but kendo is still new to me. I suspect it won't be long before I pick one to keep going with over the other (either kendo or iaido), I reckon it'll be kendo that loses out. Maybe in another 10 years I'll come back to it!

WRT to fumikomi, yup, it's really good for any and everything involving irimi in aikido because you're used to driving forwards with power and intent, exactly what irimi needs to be, a deep entry into your opponents defence. The stamp is optional (as it is in kendo AFAIK) it's the intent and power from the centre that counts. Also I've found that kendo has helped me to understand the line of attack more. It's often heard in aikido that you should get off the line of attack. Kendo really helps you understand how to dominate and redirect things along that line, be it moving yourself off it or moving your opponent/uke off of it.

Haven't been able to go to kendo for months for work reasons really miss it and am looking forward to getting back to it in January. Be kind to me when I do Jo

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:06 AM   #5
Ketsan
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

Look into this I shall.
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:18 AM   #6
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
...

Haven't been able to go to kendo for months for work reasons really miss it and am looking forward to getting back to it in January. Be kind to me when I do Jo

Mike
All you ippon are belong to me!

A slight digression but i'm most definately going to apply the things i am learning in iai into my kendo, likewise into my aikido and so on... everything will have directly applicable things to each other, only the execution of it may be slightly different...

Peace and love

Jo.

PS To all the aikido newbs out there, you should start kendo for a few months and then get your aikido teacher to join... get to smack the crap out of them you do! hehe

....if they play by the rules of course.
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Old 11-14-2007, 03:42 PM   #7
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

So we think that the stamping is a good idea?

I've always been of the opinion and thankfully I have resently met those of a like mind that koryu like MJER and MSR (which I practice) really allow your aikido to develop. Things like your reigi, eg postures like sonkyo make your seiza look so much more convincing which I tihnk its really important. Aikido is the art of small things, but without reigi (which practice should start and finish with) then we have already 'polluted' our practice.

You said that it worked with irimi ikkyo, does it suit irimi nage etc? Any more thoughts where this fumi komi can come into play? I've got to admit, I've caught the bug..... he he

Heiho wa heiho nari - Otake Risuke
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:40 PM   #8
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

Quote:
Christopher Gee wrote: View Post
You said that it worked with irimi ikkyo, does it suit irimi nage etc? Any more thoughts where this fumi komi can come into play? I've got to admit, I've caught the bug..... he he
Depends on how you do ikkyo, most common way is to take the hand in a nikyo like grip, if this is the case then I think a fumikomi type stamp might risk injury as a lot of force can be quickly applied to the wrist of uke.

Iriminage as seen in most dojo I've been to with close links to the common aikikai derived version... I'm not sure how it would apply to. In our ki-aikido based iriminage, uke travels less distance around nage, and I'm not sure how it would apply to that either

As I said before, anything with irimi in it as a principle are the things I've noticed kendo fumikomi footwork changing my views of

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:28 PM   #9
Aikibu
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

The hand/foot work in our Kaiten Nage is the same be it Kantana/Bokken. Jo, or Empty Hand...

William Hazen
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:58 PM   #10
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

Drop-step is cool, but it's the 'intent to stamp' that adds power not the 'stamp' at the end. You can get all the oomph as quiet as a mouse if you want.
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:20 PM   #11
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
The stamp is optional (as it is in kendo AFAIK) it's the intent and power from the centre that counts.
Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Drop-step is cool, but it's the 'intent to stamp' that adds power not the 'stamp' at the end. You can get all the oomph as quiet as a mouse if you want.
I believe that's what I was referring to

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:25 PM   #12
Walter Martindale
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

One previous sensei (and a regular on this forum) had us doing this in nearly anything where we wanted to finish the throw harder. Kokyu-nage, or anything, really.. That had us connected to our core, ki, mass centre, whatever, and made the transfer from our movement to uke more firmly connected.

I think it was Jack Dempsey wrote the same thing about weight transfer (fall step) at the moment of impact with his punches.
W
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Old 11-18-2007, 09:22 AM   #13
Amir Krause
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

Could you put a video.

I don't see how I could add a stomp to the common Kaiten-Nage variations we do. We do have a type of dropping own, with a waist twist, but a stomp then would not be in place.

It might be a matter of variation.

Amir
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:09 PM   #14
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

I'll try and get a video up of my work in progress. I understand the movement of fumi komi ashi also relates to the idea of kikentai ichi, blending all three elements together. I guess it works much in the same way as a kiai but with more of a physiological focus rather than psychological. Just an idea.

Regards

Heiho wa heiho nari - Otake Risuke
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Old 11-19-2007, 05:22 PM   #15
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

years back when i studied kenjutsu, i was recently doing shotokan karate, so i did the stomping stuffs; very manly stuffs in karate. my kenjutsu sensei would laugh and told me that he held a 4-foot razor blade, he didn't need much power to take off my body bits. my current iaido sensei told me that i need to soft and smooth, not heavy footed; and that power comes from dropping the hip/center. i caught myself stomping every now and then, but less frequent now. i am learning to use just enough power for the technique, no more and no less. although, i am on the more side now which i am hoping to get less. sometimes, less is more than most.
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Old 11-20-2007, 01:57 AM   #16
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Drop-step is cool, but it's the 'intent to stamp' that adds power not the 'stamp' at the end. You can get all the oomph as quiet as a mouse if you want.
What he said.

My old teacher in Tokyo used to say to me "Make your Aikido as big as you can Bryan, only then can you make it small and powerful". For me the stamp echoes this, it's an exaggeration that demonstrates clearly the "bigger bang". Over time with practice, you will find that you will be able to maintain or even increase the power whilst making a much lighter placement of the foot. Ultimately it's the movement of the centre that creates the power.

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 11-21-2007, 10:56 AM   #17
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
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Re: Kaiten nage with a bang....

Let's say you are standing at 2 swords distance from your partner.

So, one big step is enough to fully close the distance so your sword can reach him (and vice versa).

This one big step, you'd usually want to make it quick (unless you want to be stabbed) so you'd push off the back foot and either use sliding foot work like okuri ashi (very similar to how we move in aikido, only parallel feet in kendo) or you'd use stamping footwork for very quick movements.

Now you want ot cover the area super fast so you almost leap forward at your partner the right leg is lifted (slightly!!) off the ground whilst still remaining parallel to the ground. As it comes to the end of your stride your leg position has changed from nearly vertical to that of an extreme angle (left leg angled with ground right leg forward from body). This can't happen without a drop in height... drop in hara / drop in one point!

This is where the power comes from in kendo, your body.

Now, if you don't want to fall flat on your face you will need to put the right leg down and as all your weight is going forward (well at least it is for a newb like me) your right foot will impact the gound with a stomp! Provided that the whole sole of the foot makes contact with the ground simultaneously and not heel first for example.

The stomp itself is not very important... it's what causes the stomp that's important.

My 0.02€
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