not dan, den...

Hi all,

Been off these boards for a while now (a baby will do that to you) but I came across a question:

Saotome Sensei, today, talked about reaching the level of Shoden (not dan, but den). I had never heard this term. He seemed to imply that it was "above sandan level" but wasn't very specific. Anyone know the term in this context and what it might mean specifically.

Thanks,

James

Shoden is a rank in the Ki Society's Shinshin toitsudo (Ki development).

Usually people test for:
- shokyu when they test for 5th kyu in aikido
- chukyu when they test for 3rd kyu
- jokyu when they test for shodan
and
- shoden when they test for sandan in aikido,
although it is not necessary to practice aikido at all.
Higher ranks are chuden, joden, okuden, and kaiden.

Is Saotome-sensei connected with Ki Society in some way?

These levels are used in koryu too.

Laurel Seacord wrote: Shoden is a rank in the Ki Society's Shinshin toitsudo (Ki development). Is Saotome-sensei connected with Ki Society in some way?

Definitely not. But he was at Hombu with Tohei before the split so it's possible they are referring to the same word, maybe even using it in similar context, only we certainly don't have Shoden tests or anything like that.

James Kelly wrote: Hi all, Saotome Sensei, today, talked about reaching the level of Shoden (not dan, but den). I had never heard this term. He seemed to imply that it was "above sandan level" but wasn't very specific. Anyone know the term in this context and what it might mean specifically. Thanks, James

Maybe he means shoden as in shoden, chuden, and okuden. They aren't exactly rank like dan ranks but levels of understanding or teachings. Shoden being the begining, chuden being mid level, and okuden being the hidden or advanced.

James Kelly wrote: Hi all, Been off these boards for a while now (a baby will do that to you) but I came across a question: Saotome Sensei, today, talked about reaching the level of Shoden (not dan, but den). I had never heard this term. He seemed to imply that it was "above sandan level" but wasn't very specific. Anyone know the term in this context and what it might mean specifically. Thanks, James

James,

Saotome Sensei is fond of adopting non-aikido budo terminology and riffing on it to make such points as he will.

In Toda-Ha Buko Ryu Naginatajutsu, we have three levels of technical licenses: shoden, chuden, and okuden. The character for "den" means "transmission" as distinct from the character for "dan" which means "step." After "okuden" the only things that are left are formal catalogues of techniques (mokuroku) and formal teaching licenses.

My guess is that he was making a general point about how far you need to be along in dan rankings in order to have a claim to having so much as a "beginning transmission." So it's possible that he was saying "maybe you're shodan, maybe you're nidan, maybe you're sandan, even so, maybe you still don't have a clue in terms of real transmission, even beginning transmission (aka shoden).

On the other hand, maybe I'm just making shit up based on my frame of reference. ; )

Best,

FL

Yeah, but Fred, your frame of reference is generally better than most others....so....

Best,
Ron

I have read Matthew's categories before -somewhere.