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Old 11-12-2007, 12:08 AM   #1
James Kelly
Dojo: Glendale Aikikai
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Oct 2003
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not dan, den...

Hi all,

Been off these boards for a while now (a baby will do that to you) but I came across a question:

Saotome Sensei, today, talked about reaching the level of Shoden (not dan, but den). I had never heard this term. He seemed to imply that it was "above sandan level" but wasn't very specific. Anyone know the term in this context and what it might mean specifically.

Thanks,

James
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Old 11-12-2007, 05:24 AM   #2
Laurel Seacord
Dojo: Seishinkan (Ki no Kenkyukai), Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 24
Japan
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Re: not dan, den...

Shoden is a rank in the Ki Society's Shinshin toitsudo (Ki development).

Usually people test for:
- shokyu when they test for 5th kyu in aikido
- chukyu when they test for 3rd kyu
- jokyu when they test for shodan
and
- shoden when they test for sandan in aikido,
although it is not necessary to practice aikido at all.
Higher ranks are chuden, joden, okuden, and kaiden.

Is Saotome-sensei connected with Ki Society in some way?
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Old 11-12-2007, 06:05 AM   #3
Beard of Chuck Norris
 
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Re: not dan, den...

These levels are used in koryu too.
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Old 11-12-2007, 12:47 PM   #4
James Kelly
Dojo: Glendale Aikikai
Location: Los Angeles
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Re: not dan, den...

Quote:
Laurel Seacord wrote: View Post
Shoden is a rank in the Ki Society's Shinshin toitsudo (Ki development).

Is Saotome-sensei connected with Ki Society in some way?
Definitely not. But he was at Hombu with Tohei before the split so it's possible they are referring to the same word, maybe even using it in similar context, only we certainly don't have Shoden tests or anything like that.
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Old 11-12-2007, 01:18 PM   #5
Mashu
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 106
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Re: not dan, den...

Quote:
James Kelly wrote: View Post
Hi all,

Saotome Sensei, today, talked about reaching the level of Shoden (not dan, but den). I had never heard this term. He seemed to imply that it was "above sandan level" but wasn't very specific. Anyone know the term in this context and what it might mean specifically.

Thanks,

James
Maybe he means shoden as in shoden, chuden, and okuden. They aren't exactly rank like dan ranks but levels of understanding or teachings. Shoden being the begining, chuden being mid level, and okuden being the hidden or advanced.
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Old 11-12-2007, 01:23 PM   #6
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 613
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Re: not dan, den...

Quote:
James Kelly wrote: View Post
Hi all,

Been off these boards for a while now (a baby will do that to you) but I came across a question:

Saotome Sensei, today, talked about reaching the level of Shoden (not dan, but den). I had never heard this term. He seemed to imply that it was "above sandan level" but wasn't very specific. Anyone know the term in this context and what it might mean specifically.

Thanks,

James
James,

Saotome Sensei is fond of adopting non-aikido budo terminology and riffing on it to make such points as he will.

In Toda-Ha Buko Ryu Naginatajutsu, we have three levels of technical licenses: shoden, chuden, and okuden. The character for "den" means "transmission" as distinct from the character for "dan" which means "step." After "okuden" the only things that are left are formal catalogues of techniques (mokuroku) and formal teaching licenses.

My guess is that he was making a general point about how far you need to be along in dan rankings in order to have a claim to having so much as a "beginning transmission." So it's possible that he was saying "maybe you're shodan, maybe you're nidan, maybe you're sandan, even so, maybe you still don't have a clue in terms of real transmission, even beginning transmission (aka shoden).

On the other hand, maybe I'm just making shit up based on my frame of reference. ; )

Best,

FL
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Old 11-12-2007, 01:35 PM   #7
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: not dan, den...

Yeah, but Fred, your frame of reference is generally better than most others....so....

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-12-2007, 04:59 PM   #8
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
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Re: not dan, den...

I have read Matthew's categories before -somewhere.
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