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Old 11-05-2007, 02:44 PM   #101
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I would need much more context then a single quote in order to even speculate.
Well, you have much more than a single quote. You have the whole article:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=425

The context of that is that Ueshiba was a student of Sokaku Takeda, a man who had killed with the sword and whom no one could seriously challenge. These were not sport people. They didn't train for glory or money or trophies or titles, but for the samurai ethic of life and death. The way they trained has no comparison in modern millionaire sportsmen's lives. And they didn't train to be in a ring, with rules, under controlled circumstances. Frankly, that kind of thinking is why budo is absolutely not understood in this modern world and why, in some cases, it would be better not to train.

My teacher said "Truth can only be built on truth." Ueshiba said it's "false" if the opponent can get up and reattack. Of course, we can't and do not want to kill our training partners, but lacking even the awareness of the true purpose of training must surely do more harm than good.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
he was possibly referring to weapons, or maybe was just repeating a misconception. The man was not god, and it is possible he was not right on every thing.
No, he was talking specifically about demonstrating his art--aikido--for the Emperor of Japan. He was not "repeating" a misconception: he was one of the most respected students of Sokaku Takeda--he knew the truth about the full art and he felt that he could not show the Emperor the kinds of "surface" truths he showed most people.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
He could of even possibly been delusional. Was this an early quote or a later quote?
1941, when he could rightly be said to have been at the height of his power--anyway, a long, long way from being feeble and well before the disillusionment and change of philosophy brought about by Japan's defeat in WWII.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Perhaps he was referring to disabling your opponent though combat, then killing with a single blow from your weapon. AKA finishing completely.
That would not have been part of an "aikido" demonstration at that time. He said that "aikido" kills the opponent with a single blow.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
...if you believe every single blow you throw can kill, then you are going to be at a disadvantage when you find out you are wrong.
No, those men trained to attain that level of ability, but they never counted on a single tactic. They were prepared for any eventuality, including missing the strike, the opponent being very strong, etc.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I really don't care what the man said.
Doesn't really matter, then, does it? Why discuss aikido at all if the words of the creator of aikido have no bearing on the discussion?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
David Orange, you said training increases ability to perform. You are correct, but there are still limits. This is why a focus on the basics is important.
That's the whole point of this discussion: the killing at one stroke is the basic fact of aikido. Moving from that basic fact, trying to pretend that it's really about the flow of the hakama over the mat, etc., is what leads people into the "dive-monkey" state of mind and to aikido's not only "looking" fake but actually "being" something the very students, themselves, don't understand.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Basics are what works, fancy technique is opportunistic. A single targeted 'death' strike would be a fancy technique, it would require expert setup, timing, execution with no mistakes in order to work. If you were truly training as if life and death were on the line, why would you use this as a model of life and death? I would want much better tools, and be much more afraid of high percentage disabling attacks then that single death strike.
Why do you think a single strike is "fancier"or requires better set-up, timing and execution than something like shiho nage, which requires much more movement and affords the opponent many, many more opportunities to escape and counter? If aikido comes from the sword, the strike is "how" it comes from the sword. The strike is "where" it comes from the sword. How could anything be more basic than that?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
what is implied here is that sports will not bother to learn these things because they want to prolong a fight. This is not true, they are training to win. If it was as simple as a punch to meridian 17 or something, then they would all be training it. But instead they throw bunches of punches and wait for the one that sends them down.
Both opponents are put into a closed space with the same limited number of techniques available to them. Both are looking directly at one another when the fight starts, both have puffy gloves on their hands and both are highly conditioned. Fight as hard as they may, they are normally not trying to kill one another, but sometimes people do die.

In real life, the attacker comes unexpectedly, but very likely with no knowledge of whom he is attacking. The budo man is not limited to any particular technique or to any particular space. The training is to respond in an instant, from "unexpected" to ending the fight in a split second.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
But some people are up in arms with these statements. It challenges their core beliefs in the super natural. One post says it doesn't have to work 100% to be real. So I ask, what percentage does it take to go from luck to technique?
There's nothing "supernatural" about koppo. It's an old art derived from combat experience as well as from medicine. It concentrates on breaking the bones and dislocating the joints. It requires no magic or any belief and is scientifically testable, if you can find people who will let you test it on them. It's the essence of ancient jujutsu.

As for working 100% of the time, that's not what's required for it to "be" a "technique." It's a "technique" if you train for it to be your technique. Whether it's a good technique can only be judged by actual application. And even a good technique can work only as well as 1) the user understands it; and 2) the user trains to get it right. That means learning to apply it in many kinds of situations against many kinds of attacks. And the way Ueshiba and Takeda trained, they were able to use it correctly.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-05-2007, 02:45 PM   #102
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
It doesn't have to be, but in this case, Ueshiba said that if the opponent can jump up and attack again, then it is false. So if that's false, then the "deadly" is "real."
I know that when Sensei has pinned me to the mat, I can't "jump up" and do anything, much less attack.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
The truth is, when the chips are all the way down and the opponent does intend to kill you, you won't put all your life and hopes and dreams and your children's future on a platitude and accept that he can just take your life because your shiho nage was a little off.
This is one of the reasons I got my concealed weapons or firearms license. And carry a weapon I know I can use quickly and effectively. I cultivate a mindset that would allow me to act without hesitation. I'm not against a justifiable homicide in self defense, I just wouldn't use aikido to effect that end. I could fry an egg on the hood of my car (i live in miami, FL - haha) but I don't, I use a frying pan. Proper tool for the proper job. People who would aim to seriously endanger the lives or well-being of me or mine get steel or lead, my pick. Misguided, but basically harmless, people who are angry, upset, intoxicated get off luckier, they get some less than lethal measures, maybe some aikido. I've only been in one armed street fight, the attacker had a knife and had already stabbed somebody who I cared about with it. I had a pair of Nunchaku. I won. I saved another's life and my own. He lost badly, but definitely lived.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
I'd rather a "good" person, who's doing good things in general, have access to those highly refined methods than leave them at the mercy of muggers.
Yes, but a mugger typically just wants your money and jewelery. Give it to them, and wave politely as they leave.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
The common saying on shooting ranges is "I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six." Lip service is paid to "shooting to stop," but confidentially, they shoot to kill.
I'd rather leave them alive so that they can be tried by twelve. Assuming of course that i'm around to see the outcome as well, safe and sound. The reason I agree with the "post-war" mindset of Morihei, is because I feel that 100% of the time violence begets more violence. If I break your arm, you're not going to like me, you might want to do even meaner things to me. The eventual outcome being a nuke get's dropped on your country and lots of people die. That sucks. So the Ideal is that we unify with each other for peace, rather than attack and face the eventual consequences. From this reference point, killing somebody just makes your situation and the world more screwed up.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
he taught that the art of aiki is to overcome the opponent mentally, at a glance.
I choose to believe that this is a possibility of what is meant by killing with one blow.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
People today tend to think that people like Ueshiba and Takeda were pretty much the same as us, when we can have no concept of how they lived day to day. They were rooted in the samurai ethic, where losing meant dying and the only way not to lose, most often meant killing.
Kinda sounds similar to what is going down in the slums of major cities throughout the world. People are killing each other all over the globe. Most of them don't know any martial arts and are doing a great job at butchery. Aikido is an opportunity for martial arts to redeem themselves and make the world better. Why try to use it for murder, whether it's origins stem from there or not?

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 11-05-2007, 02:53 PM   #103
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Neil Harrison wrote: View Post
Either Ueshiba is being misquoted or he was making fanciful claims to promote his art. Or by that stage he was delusional.
He was quoted by Gozo Shioda, whom no one has ever accused of misquoting Morihei Ueshiba. Shioda was uchi deshi to Ueshiba from about 1931 to 1938 or 1939 and this demonstration (and the comment) took place in 1941. This tells us two things: Ueshiba had no need to impress Shioda, who already knew Ueshiba and his art on a very deep level; and Ueshiba was not "yet" delusional, "if"he ever did become delusional. This was a highly respected martial arts teacher who had taught at the Imperial Naval Academy and included Admirals in his circle of friends, speaking frankly to one of his closest students about a demonstration before someone considered to be the "God" of Japan.

I don't see where the controversy is unless people just don't have any perspective on the nature of the samurai arts.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 11-05-2007, 03:17 PM   #104
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
...I got my concealed weapons or firearms license. And carry a weapon I know I can use quickly and effectively. I cultivate a mindset that would allow me to act without hesitation. I'm not against a justifiable homicide in self defense, I just wouldn't use aikido to effect that end. I could fry an egg on the hood of my car (i live in miami, FL - haha) but I don't, I use a frying pan. Proper tool for the proper job.
Hmmm....what if you didn't have your gun with you, it was out of reach or you couldn't get it out in time to use it? You always have your bare hands available. But anyway, saying "proper tool for the proper job" indicates that aikido does not come from the sword, that, technically, it is not based on sword strikes, etc. But the truth is, it does come from kenjutsu and the basic technique is to end the fight decisively--in the worst case, by killing the attacker with a single strike. But if you're willing to kill anyone at all, then the rest of your argument just doesn't make any sense to me. When your life is on the line, you will use your frying pan or your car to take out the attacker.

Saying that aikido should not be used in that ultimate fashion to save your life or that of your family (though you would use a gun) is like using a rubber frying pan so that the frying pan can't kill anyone because that's not the "proper" use of a frying pan.

But aikido was based on killing with the sword. In aikido, the hand is the sword. Why neuter the art and make it incapable of serious application?

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
...the Ideal is that we unify with each other for peace, rather than attack and face the eventual consequences. From this reference point, killing somebody just makes your situation and the world more screwed up.
Yeah....but you have already said you will kill with a gun or nunchakus if necessary. So what if you don't have your gun or nunchucks? Would you use a coke bottle? Those are not intended for killing....would you use a picture frame or a coffee cup? People will.

The fact is, aikido comes from that root. The only way to eliminate that from its nature is to neuter it either by modifying the techniques or by sheer ignorance of their actual intent.

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
...I choose to believe that this is a possibility of what is meant by killing with one blow.
It's not the "meaning"of "killing with one blow": it's a result of being able to kill with one blow. The opponent senses that intention subconsciously and also knows subconsciously that he will definitely lose in the encounter, so his will and ability to attack are destroyed before he can start. That is the meaning of "overcome the opponent mentally, at a glance and win without fighting".

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
...Kinda sounds similar to what is going down in the slums of major cities throughout the world. People are killing each other all over the globe. Most of them don't know any martial arts and are doing a great job at butchery.
Not at all. The essence of the samurai millieu was not the butchery but the training and the self-development--precisely the elements that are missing in the slums.

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
...Aikido is an opportunity for martial arts to redeem themselves and make the world better. Why try to use it for murder, whether it's origins stem from there or not?
It's not murder if you apply it in self-defense. But why use a toothless pit-bull to "defend" yourself. In that case, the techniques of aikido are not "hidden" at all, but simply "removed" by choice. That's fine if that's what you want to do. You just shouldn't try to rationalize that it's Ueshiba's art and that Ueshib didn't mean what he plainly and openly said and showed.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 11-05-2007, 03:35 PM   #105
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Well, ok, I can see and accept your viewpoint.

I just think killing things feels bad. So I try not to do it. This is totally my opinion. If someone had told me "go try Aikido, they'll teach you how to kill with one blow" I probably would have said "no thanks".Just not my style, you know?

It's definitely something to ponder, though.

Thanks.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:04 PM   #106
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
Well, ok, I can see and accept your viewpoint. I just think killing things feels bad. So I try not to do it.
Yeah, me, too. But somehow...I always do.....

What?

No. I mean, no...I never do.

Anyway...I don't carry a gun even though I've had professional instruction (as part of a job) on how to use one to most lethal effect. I grew up around guns, my father and grandfather were both LEOs and my grandfather killed at least one man with a gun. I just don't have any interest in owning or carrying a gun.

And I've never had to "use" my aikido or any weapon beyond being willing to do so if necessary. The few times I've thought I would have to do something, the attackers changed their minds and left me alone.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:55 PM   #107
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Thanks David and William P for articulating my feelings exactly to Don MaGee and bringing this discussion full circle...

"In Aikido the fight is over at the moment of contact." Shoji Nishio Shihan

Which David expresses as "In real life, the attacker comes unexpectedly, but very likely with no knowledge of whom he is attacking. The budo man is not limited to any particular technique or to any particular space. The training is to respond in an instant, from "unexpected" to ending the fight in a split second."

I have spent almost 20 years in our Aikido Practice to match this ideal.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 11-05-2007 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:01 AM   #108
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, you have much more than a single quote. You have the whole article:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=425

The context of that is that Ueshiba was a student of Sokaku Takeda, a man who had killed with the sword and whom no one could seriously challenge. These were not sport people. They didn't train for glory or money or trophies or titles, but for the samurai ethic of life and death. The way they trained has no comparison in modern millionaire sportsmen's lives. And they didn't train to be in a ring, with rules, under controlled circumstances. Frankly, that kind of thinking is why budo is absolutely not understood in this modern world and why, in some cases, it would be better not to train.

My teacher said "Truth can only be built on truth." Ueshiba said it's "false" if the opponent can get up and reattack. Of course, we can't and do not want to kill our training partners, but lacking even the awareness of the true purpose of training must surely do more harm than good.

No, he was talking specifically about demonstrating his art--aikido--for the Emperor of Japan. He was not "repeating" a misconception: he was one of the most respected students of Sokaku Takeda--he knew the truth about the full art and he felt that he could not show the Emperor the kinds of "surface" truths he showed most people.

1941, when he could rightly be said to have been at the height of his power--anyway, a long, long way from being feeble and well before the disillusionment and change of philosophy brought about by Japan's defeat in WWII.

That would not have been part of an "aikido" demonstration at that time. He said that "aikido" kills the opponent with a single blow.

No, those men trained to attain that level of ability, but they never counted on a single tactic. They were prepared for any eventuality, including missing the strike, the opponent being very strong, etc.

Doesn't really matter, then, does it? Why discuss aikido at all if the words of the creator of aikido have no bearing on the discussion?

That's the whole point of this discussion: the killing at one stroke is the basic fact of aikido. Moving from that basic fact, trying to pretend that it's really about the flow of the hakama over the mat, etc., is what leads people into the "dive-monkey" state of mind and to aikido's not only "looking" fake but actually "being" something the very students, themselves, don't understand.

Why do you think a single strike is "fancier"or requires better set-up, timing and execution than something like shiho nage, which requires much more movement and affords the opponent many, many more opportunities to escape and counter? If aikido comes from the sword, the strike is "how" it comes from the sword. The strike is "where" it comes from the sword. How could anything be more basic than that?

Both opponents are put into a closed space with the same limited number of techniques available to them. Both are looking directly at one another when the fight starts, both have puffy gloves on their hands and both are highly conditioned. Fight as hard as they may, they are normally not trying to kill one another, but sometimes people do die.

In real life, the attacker comes unexpectedly, but very likely with no knowledge of whom he is attacking. The budo man is not limited to any particular technique or to any particular space. The training is to respond in an instant, from "unexpected" to ending the fight in a split second.

There's nothing "supernatural" about koppo. It's an old art derived from combat experience as well as from medicine. It concentrates on breaking the bones and dislocating the joints. It requires no magic or any belief and is scientifically testable, if you can find people who will let you test it on them. It's the essence of ancient jujutsu.

As for working 100% of the time, that's not what's required for it to "be" a "technique." It's a "technique" if you train for it to be your technique. Whether it's a good technique can only be judged by actual application. And even a good technique can work only as well as 1) the user understands it; and 2) the user trains to get it right. That means learning to apply it in many kinds of situations against many kinds of attacks. And the way Ueshiba and Takeda trained, they were able to use it correctly.

Best to you.

David
Well, I don't know what to say. You failed to address the majority of my points in any way that even relates to what I was saying. I can't even come up with a new way to explain my points to you. I suggest, if you want to further this conversation, you reread my previous post and try again. There is one part where you actually addressed my comments the first quote. So I will comment on that.

The article you linked still only provides a single sentence with no insight on what ueshiba was trying to say. it sheds no clue on if he was referring to open hand or weapons. Assuming weapons (as aikido is a weapon art I'm told constantly) then it makes sense. To kill with a single blow after a throw using a dagger or sword is very possible, and very consistent with the views of old school jiujitsu.

Finally, you commented on me saying that I do not care what ueshiba said. That why bother talking about aikido if I did not care. Well, I am not talking about aikido. I'm talking about the single punch killing technique. I don't care if it's karate, aikido, or some other art. It is not a discussion on what some aikido master thinks can be done. It is what is possible to teach the majority of the practitioners in a reasonable time with reasonable success rate. Something you failed to grasp in my later comments. You are still stuck on seeing what you want to see in my comments, and not what I am saying. And you fail to address my questions and points.

But, because I'm bored. I will ask them directly.

In order for a technique to be feasible, what percentage chance would you expect in its success rate when performed by a skilled practitioner?

Do you think a one punch kill against a fully resisting attacker has this high of a success rate?

How many people in the world have the skill required to perform this technique with a success rate that makes it dangerous?

You talk about basics, and state that an aikido basic is killing in one blow. I guess I was never taught the basics. In bjj I was taught the basics, and we drill them every single day. I have NEVER ONCE drilled killing in one blow in any aikido class. Not very basic to me.

Finally, your rebuttal to my sport/budo argument is flawed. Being 'unrestricted' is not going to make low percentage techniques suddenly work more often. You arguement would work if we were talking about eye gouges, but not when we are talking about a technique that could indeed be used in a sport like mma. A one punch knock out could be trained and used if it was posssible. There are no rules against it.

So I guess I was wrong, I did have a few things to say. But I still think you are picking apart my comments to look for things that fit your view of me, rather then debating what I am saying.

In any case, this conversation holds no more value for me. My view was not changed, I gained no new information that helped me with my insights, opinions, viewpoints, deeper understand of myself, why I train, or what I want for my training. So my time can be better spent doing something else. Unless you have something that directly addresses my points, or has some value to me, I will not bother craping on this threads parade anymore.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:04 AM   #109
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Thanks David and William P for articulating my feelings exactly to Don MaGee and bringing this discussion full circle...

"In Aikido the fight is over at the moment of contact." Shoji Nishio Shihan

Which David expresses as "In real life, the attacker comes unexpectedly, but very likely with no knowledge of whom he is attacking. The budo man is not limited to any particular technique or to any particular space. The training is to respond in an instant, from "unexpected" to ending the fight in a split second."

I have spent almost 20 years in our Aikido Practice to match this ideal.

William Hazen
One more thing.

Ueshiba and others may have said this. But this does not mean a single technique. In fact, the quote by ueshiba seems to imply a lot more before the killing blow. Perhaps to disable, severely injure, etc. The quote in question no longer seems to me to imply one punch one kill, but rather that the attacker has lost for being the attacker, and will be defeated by the end of it.

Of course this is another spiritual belief.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-06-2007, 10:36 AM   #110
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Seems to me O-sensei said and did many things us mere mortals probably aren't capable of, killing with one blow included.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:12 AM   #111
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Finally, you commented on me saying that I do not care what ueshiba said. That why bother talking about aikido if I did not care. Well, I am not talking about aikido. I'm talking about the single punch killing technique.
Well, this is a thread about "aikido is 99% strikes..." and my comment is strictly about Ueshiba's statement that aikido kills the attacker with a single blow. I have trained in karate and jujutsu as well, but I'm not commenting on those art or on "the death touch," but on aikido's method of killing with one blow, which is achieved by aikido methods--in particular, irimi.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
It is what is possible to teach the majority of the practitioners in a reasonable time with reasonable success rate.
I don't agree with that. I'm not sure that any art can be taught at all to "the majority of practitioners." Which explains why aikido is generally at such a low level in most places that claim to teach it. It tries to be something that really can be taught to everyone when it really is not, for various reasons.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
In order for a technique to be feasible, what percentage chance would you expect in its success rate when performed by a skilled practitioner?
Since we're talking about 'art' and not about science, you shouldn't expect terribly precise quantifications, but I will say 'almost always' when performed by a skilled practitioner.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Do you think a one punch kill against a fully resisting attacker has this high of a success rate?
Yes, when delivered by a highly skilled practitioner: one who understands what the technique is, how it works and who has dedicated himself to applying it reliably against many different kinds of attacks from many different kinds of attackers. That's very serious work that most people won't do, so the number of people who could be considered "highly skilled pratitioners" would be a very low number. But only the highly skilled practitioners are the real "artists" of an art. The rest could take up Bob Ross painting and be satisfied that they are artists, too.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
How many people in the world have the skill required to perform this technique with a success rate that makes it dangerous?
The same number who do "real aikido."

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
You talk about basics, and state that an aikido basic is killing in one blow. I guess I was never taught the basics. ...I have NEVER ONCE drilled killing in one blow in any aikido class. Not very basic to me.
If aikido comes from the sword and the art of the sword is to kill with one stroke, then the place where aikido emerges from the sword is at that killing stroke. And that is the true basic of the art, though you won't find it in any kihon waza that I'm familiar with. Nonetheless, it's the foundation of the art.

Don't you see that aikido is taught backwards? It takes a long time to understand it because they teach it from ura to omote.

Another way to look at it would be to say that modern aikido teaches you all the blossoms on the cherry tree--but the truth is at the root and when you have the root, the blossoms come naturally. But modern teaching covers all the flowers, then all the twigs, then the branches, then the trunk and very few people follow that all the way to the root.

Maybe it's better that it is taught that way.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Finally, your rebuttal to my sport/budo argument is flawed. Being 'unrestricted' is not going to make low percentage techniques suddenly work more often. You arguement would work if we were talking about eye gouges, but not when we are talking about a technique that could indeed be used in a sport like mma. A one punch knock out could be trained and used if it was posssible. There are no rules against it.
Who said anything about knock outs? We're talking about a technique that causes irreparable damage and kills. There is no way to apply it "halfway" and "just knock out the opponent." It's all or nothing. That's why we spend almost all the time focusing on safe techniques. The method Ueshiba described is therefore not suitable for sport application. Sport is to fight. Aikido is to stop the fight at the very first instant. There is no way it can be reconciled with sport.

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I still think you are picking apart my comments to look for things that fit your view of me, rather then debating what I am saying.
I don't have any view of you. And I'm only debating what I know.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
In any case, this conversation holds no more value for me. My view was not changed, I gained no new information that helped me with my insights, opinions, viewpoints, deeper understand of myself, why I train, or what I want for my training. So my time can be better spent doing something else.
Sounds like a good idea.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Unless you have something that directly addresses my points, or has some value to me...
I probably don't.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 11-06-2007, 11:18 AM   #112
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Ueshiba and others may have said this. But this does not mean a single technique. In fact, the quote by ueshiba seems to imply a lot more before the killing blow. Perhaps to disable, severely injure, etc. The quote in question no longer seems to me to imply one punch one kill...
I don't know how you get those ideas from this:

" in aikido, the opponent is killed with a single blow. It's false if the attacker is thrown, leisurely stands up, and attacks again."

In fact, the strike occurs in the first instant of the attack, just as if both sides are using swords. There is no jockeying around, no twisting into position. It occurs as the opponent makes his first and only attack and it's all over.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 11-06-2007, 11:49 AM   #113
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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In any case, this conversation holds no more value for me. My view was not changed, I gained no new information that helped me with my insights, opinions, viewpoints, deeper understand of myself, why I train, or what I want for my training. So my time can be better spent doing something else. Unless you have something that directly addresses my points, or has some value to me, I will not bother craping on this threads parade anymore.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information,which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-That principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

I am able to move freely around, train, and enjoy all Martial Arts have to offer, MMA, Japanese, Chinese, Korean and the like. Here's to hoping you can do the same some day.

William Hazen
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:59 PM   #114
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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I am able to move freely around, train, and enjoy all Martial Arts have to offer, MMA, Japanese, Chinese, Korean and the like.
Man, that's refreshing! See, this is what I like to hear.

Reminds me of that saying:

"The human mind is like a parachute, It works best when fully open."

Last edited by Will Prusner : 11-06-2007 at 01:12 PM.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

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Old 11-06-2007, 02:59 PM   #115
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I don't know how you get those ideas from this:

" in aikido, the opponent is killed with a single blow. It's false if the attacker is thrown, leisurely stands up, and attacks again."

In fact, the strike occurs in the first instant of the attack, just as if both sides are using swords. There is no jockeying around, no twisting into position. It occurs as the opponent makes his first and only attack and it's all over.

Best to you.

David
A lofty goal indeed. I notice we are again talking about a mystical death touch. For a man to have this would make him god. I'm sorry, that is a pipe dream. Not even jedi have that kind of power.

William Hazen, I too move around a train in many arts with no issues, as long as they are not spouting crap.

What is being presented here is no different then the arguments made by people trying to convert me to a religion. Pure faith, nothing more. Perhaps the goals are bigger then the reality of it. Anyways, I'm out.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:15 PM   #116
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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A lofty goal indeed. I notice we are again talking about a mystical death touch. For a man to have this would make him god. I'm sorry, that is a pipe dream. Not even jedi have that kind of power.
Don, you should have quit when you were ahead. Maybe you should try once more and avoid tossing insults as you leave.

As I said, it has nothing to do with a "death touch". Your concept of what would make a "god" is pretty low. Why would a god have to touch you or strike you? A god could make you hit yourself or choke yourself to death. But they say, "Whom the gods would destroy, they first make proud."

Anyway, Ueshiba said that's the essence of the art. Why would you be involved with an art when you think the founder of that art was delusional?

But it's not just Ueshiba. Here's what Takuma Hisa said about the creator of aikijujutsu:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=497

"Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu...studied and researched the techniques handed down in his family in more detail. He dissected corpses brought back from wars in order to explore human anatomy and mastered a decisive counter-technique as well as discovering lethal atemi. Yoshimitsu then mastered a technique for killing with a single blow. Through such great efforts, he mastered the essence of aiki and discovered the secret techniques of Aiki Budo."

It's at the heart of aiki, Don. It takes severe and austere training, but that's why we call aikido a "budo" and not a sport. You have to appreciate what the samurai and those who learned directly from them were like and how they lived. They weren't gods, but they didn't sit around watching TV and consuming mass quantities. It's hard for anyone from this modern culture to begin to grasp their way of living.

And without that, you can never understand their strategy or the power they cultivated.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 11-06-2007 at 03:30 PM.

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Old 11-06-2007, 03:36 PM   #117
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
A lofty goal indeed. I notice we are again talking about a mystical death touch. For a man to have this would make him god. I'm sorry, that is a pipe dream. Not even jedi have that kind of power.
Was Mas Oyama a jedi?

Taunting Oyama, the troublemaker made continuous slashing movements through the air in front of Oyama's face with the knife then lunged towards Oyama. Oyama blocked the attack and delivered a forceful punch to the head of the assailant, killing him instantly. Because of eyewitness accounts of the incident, Oyama was ruled by the courts as justified in using self-defense.
http://www.shuriway.co.uk/masoyama.html
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:40 PM   #118
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
A lofty goal indeed. I notice we are again talking about a mystical death touch. For a man to have this would make him god. I'm sorry, that is a pipe dream. Not even jedi have that kind of power.

William Hazen, I too move around a train in many arts with no issues, as long as they are not spouting crap.

What is being presented here is no different then the arguments made by people trying to convert me to a religion. Pure faith, nothing more. Perhaps the goals are bigger then the reality of it. Anyways, I'm out.
I refer you once again to Herbert Spencers quote in my previous post...No one here has tried to convert you... We were just kind enough to put up with the chatter of your Monkey Mind.LOL

If you have not linked yourself to true emptiness you will never understand The Art of Peace. O'Sensei

Bowing down to you Don. I bid you safe travel up the mountain.

William Hazen
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:10 PM   #119
David Orange
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Was Mas Oyama a jedi?
Don't think so, ne?

Also, I wouldn't call his method a "death touch," exactly.

And I don't think he would have had any trouble reproducing that effect time after time.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:42 PM   #120
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Don, "Death touch" is not the same as "killing blow". If i can notice the difference, whith my poor english skills, why you can't?
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:07 PM   #121
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

Mas Oyama Shihan is a close to a God in Karate. Thanks for linking to the article. All the years I spent in Karate were to develop this kind of power. I have old tapes of him demonstrating his powerful strikes somewhere in the garage.

William Hazen

P.S For you You Tubers he's all over it.

Last edited by Aikibu : 11-06-2007 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:00 PM   #122
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Mas Oyama Shihan is a close to a God in Karate.
So much so that he was sometimes called Godhand.

Funny thing, though: he trained in daito ryu under Kotaro Yoshida, who, I believe, introduced Morihei Ueshiba to Sokaku Takeda. So maybe he actually used an aiki technique to dispatch the yakuza, and not karate????

Also, Yoshida (I think it was he) was said to have killed a bear, but, of course, he used an iron fan....

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:43 PM   #123
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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Also, Yoshida (I think it was he) was said to have killed a bear, but, of course, he used an iron fan....
And I'll bet it wasn't a grizzly.
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:18 PM   #124
David Orange
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And I'll bet it wasn't a grizzly.
OK, you force me to tell it.

According to Richard Kim, this aiki master got drunk one night and had to walk home over the mountain. The next morning, when he woke up, he suddenly remembered being attacked by a very big guy who grabbed him from behind, wearing a fur coat and stinking like he couldn't believe. The master slipped out of the rear grab as he whipped his iron fan out of his belt and struck the attacker with it. And that was it. He went on home.

But when he woke up and remembered this, he suddenly felt very bad and wondered if he had hurt the guy. So he went back over the mountain and in the appropriate place, he found not a man, but a bear. I guess it was a brown bear. Whatever they have in Japan. Just as friendly as ours, I'm sure...

Anyway, that's the story and I think it was Kotaro Yoshida he mentioned as the man.

By the way, you are familiar with the story about Oyama and the yakuza, aren't you?

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:42 PM   #125
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Re: Aikido is 99% strikes and only 1% preparation.

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OK, you force me to tell it.

According to Richard Kim, this aiki master got drunk one night and had to walk home over the mountain. The next morning, when he woke up, he suddenly remembered being attacked by a very big guy who grabbed him from behind, wearing a fur coat and stinking like he couldn't believe. The master slipped out of the rear grab as he whipped his iron fan out of his belt and struck the attacker with it. And that was it. He went on home.

But when he woke up and remembered this, he suddenly felt very bad and wondered if he had hurt the guy. So he went back over the mountain and in the appropriate place, he found not a man, but a bear. I guess it was a brown bear. Whatever they have in Japan. Just as friendly as ours, I'm sure...

Anyway, that's the story and I think it was Kotaro Yoshida he mentioned as the man.

By the way, you are familiar with the story about Oyama and the yakuza, aren't you?

Best to you.

David
Sounds like some of the tall tales the American mountain men used to tell.
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