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Old 11-02-2007, 10:47 AM   #1
DictatorForLife
 
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Ki and Remaining Grounded

I'm two months into Aikido and had a question regarding Ki.

From all the techniques I've seen so far, nage always has their feet firmly planted on the ground. For Ki energy to be used, must nage be grounded?

For example, if you were standing relaxed with your arms at your side and a taller person came up from behind and grabbed you around the waist then lifted you off the ground, could Ki energy be used in any way to assist you in getting out of that situation?

Thanks in advance for all your responses.

Paul

-- Paul --
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:52 PM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Hmmm....this is not the answer to the question you are posing but a reply to your assumption:
I think a lot of us would disagree w/ being rooted/planted as a good thing or as synonomous w/ things like one point or weight underside. 2 reasons off the top of my head: 1. One wants the ability to move lightly, quickly and dynamically. 2. One is way more injury-prone when rooted (joints lock and then give out with disastrous results)

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-02-2007, 05:30 PM   #3
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Whats Ki?

He he

Heiho wa heiho nari - Otake Risuke
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Old 11-03-2007, 12:49 AM   #4
Larry Cuvin
 
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

When ki is extending, you should have a light, floating feeling and should be un-liftable even with two big guys.

Plus Ki
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Old 11-03-2007, 01:41 AM   #5
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Paul Seto wrote: View Post
I'm two months into Aikido and had a question regarding Ki.

From all the techniques I've seen so far, nage always has their feet firmly planted on the ground. For Ki energy to be used, must nage be grounded?

For example, if you were standing relaxed with your arms at your side and a taller person came up from behind and grabbed you around the waist then lifted you off the ground, could Ki energy be used in any way to assist you in getting out of that situation?

Thanks in advance for all your responses.

Paul
You are in Toronto, you use the word shugyo... I guess you must be with Yoshinkan group...yesssssss?

If yes, then you will realize Ki are for Wussies.... Yoshinkan' ers believe in Body Mechanics, Angles, you know.... the boring Physical stuff.

But then I could use my KEYS to poke at uke's sensitive parts to make my escape... who knows. Not part of grading syllabus though.

Boon .

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 11-03-2007, 03:13 AM   #6
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Larry Cuvin wrote: View Post
When ki is extending, you should have a light, floating feeling and should be un-liftable even with two big guys.
Ki

EXTENDING
FLOATING
UN liftable.....

Incredible. Sorry I used to practice Ki myself. I think there are an awesome set of principles their, but I could never make the applications work with other Aiki brands... probably just me.

Yoroshiku onegai shimasu.

Heiho wa heiho nari - Otake Risuke
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Old 11-03-2007, 06:22 AM   #7
nekobaka
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

first of all you should be aware enough that you won't get snuck up on. especially if you are small enough to get picked up, like I am. moving first is of great importance. In general you should keep your hips dropped, knees bent. it gives you a more solid position. 13 years and I still can't get this one.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:55 AM   #8
Timothy WK
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

The short answer is yes. There are many people who, like myself, believe that "ki" is really just about certain bio-mechanical functions, and has nothing to do with mystical energy you channel from the ground or air. The deal with the ground is really about being able to push off of it.

If you get lifted up, as others have said, there are ways to make yourself "heavy" and hard to manipulate. You can also "throw" your weight around to off-balance the attacker. Daito-ryu has a famous "throw" where nage is lifted up by 4-6 people, and then becomes really heavy and knocks them all down. You can see it at about 3:15 in this video. Lastly, in such a situation, you could also use "ki strength" to help break the grip.

(But don't ask me how, I'm not that far along in my own training.)

--Timothy Kleinert

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Old 11-03-2007, 01:26 PM   #9
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

IMHO, remaining grounded does not necessarily mean that you have to literally physically be touching the ground, but rather your mental map receives and extends ki/energy from it and returns to it.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
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Old 11-03-2007, 03:27 PM   #10
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
There are many people who, like myself, believe that "ki" is really just about certain bio-mechanical functions
To me, approaching Ki that way is like playing music. Someone learning to play the guitar can sit down and learn an incredible solo that, say, Jimi Hendrix played. They can learn it note for note, nuance for nuance, they can replicate the timing etc. But without the special something that Jimi had, it will never feel the same, it won't be experienced the same way. It may look and sound the same, but that's it.

Knowing what Ki is and using it in Aikido properly is similar to me. You can do something in a relaxed manner, moving your bdy properly etc.... but without Ki, the -experience- of it will never be the same. The feeling will ultimately be different. That's my experience anyway.

Larry Novick
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Old 11-04-2007, 07:42 AM   #11
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Larry, you're arguing with the guy! I apologize, I should have been more thoughtful with my words. I realize my last post probably sounded dismissive, but that really wasn't my intent. Anyway, let's not muddy up this thread with that discussion.

--Timothy Kleinert

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Old 11-04-2007, 08:22 AM   #12
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Larry, you're arguing with the guy! I apologize, I should have been more thoughtful with my words. I realize my last post probably sounded dismissive, but that really wasn't my intent. Anyway, let's not muddy up this thread with that discussion.
Hi Tim - I don't think there was anything wrong with your answer, and I think mine is relevant to the original question and other people's responses as well.... with these kinds of queries, people will inevitably answer with physical solutions, as they already have, so keeping a perspective about the presence of Ki from a different angle is likely to be integral to the overall discussion.... especially at the basic level that I'm bringing it up. :-)

Larry Novick
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Old 11-04-2007, 03:20 PM   #13
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Paul Seto wrote: View Post
From all the techniques I've seen so far, nage always has their feet firmly planted on the ground. For Ki energy to be used, must nage be grounded?

For example, if you were standing relaxed with your arms at your side and a taller person came up from behind and grabbed you around the waist then lifted you off the ground, could Ki energy be used in any way to assist you in getting out of that situation?
Unless the person is floating through the air when he lifts you up, you are still grounded. Your connection to the ground is through the other person's body.
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Old 11-05-2007, 06:09 PM   #14
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

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Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
...If yes, then you will realize Ki are for Wussies.... Yoshinkan' ers believe in Body Mechanics, Angles, you know.... the boring Physical stuff....
What happens if you're sick, injured or just plain old and can't rely on your strength alone to overcome an opponent? Is dying your back-up plan?

It's not about the dog in the fight. It's about the fight in the dog. Therefore this is really about Mind or using the traditional terminology, about Ki development.

The Yoshinkan I've seen is about timing, balance, ki extension and doing movements in a correct manner. Maybe that's just my perspective.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 11-06-2007, 12:06 AM   #15
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Paul Seto wrote: View Post
For example, if you were standing relaxed with your arms at your side and a taller person came up from behind and grabbed you around the waist then lifted you off the ground, could Ki energy be used in any way to assist you in getting out of that situation?
Yes.

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Old 11-06-2007, 12:08 AM   #16
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Christopher Gee wrote: View Post
Ki

EXTENDING
FLOATING
UN liftable.....

Incredible. Sorry I used to practice Ki myself. I think there are an awesome set of principles their, but I could never make the applications work with other Aiki brands... probably just me.

Yoroshiku onegai shimasu.
Yes, most definitely you.

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Old 11-06-2007, 02:56 AM   #17
xuzen
 
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote: View Post
What happens if you're sick, injured or just plain old and can't rely on your strength alone to overcome an opponent? Is dying your back-up plan?
Ted my man, you are being highly speculative and hyperbolic. If it so happen if I am sick I just don't fight. Or is it you meant T3H R34L LIFE (TM) self defense. If I am old or just infirmed, it will be unlikely I will on the street shouting to my "theoretical opponent", " Come on mate, this grandpa is gonna show you whose ur daddy!"

Now to give you a hyperbolic answer: Should such scenario ever occur to me, you will bet I would have considered:
a) egressing from the confrontation, failing which...
b) I will ask for help, assuming none are available, then...
c) use tools to equalize the confrontation, if I so happen to be in a barren desert with no appropriate tools... then
d) I will give a fight for my opponent to remember me by...
[quote]

Quote:
The Yoshinkan I've seen is about timing, balance, ki extension and doing movements in a correct manner. Maybe that's just my perspective.
The Yoshinkan that I practice also stress on the factors I highlighted. But we speak very little about ki stuff. Maybe that was just your perspective.

Ossu!

Boon.

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Old 11-06-2007, 10:40 AM   #18
tedehara
 
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Ted my man, you are being highly speculative and hyperbolic. If it so happen if I am sick I just don't fight. Or is it you meant T3H R34L LIFE (TM) self defense. If I am old or just infirmed, it will be unlikely I will on the street shouting to my "theoretical opponent", " Come on mate, this grandpa is gonna show you whose ur daddy!"

Now to give you a hyperbolic answer: Should such scenario ever occur to me, you will bet I would have considered:
a) egressing from the confrontation, failing which...
b) I will ask for help, assuming none are available, then...
c) use tools to equalize the confrontation, if I so happen to be in a barren desert with no appropriate tools... then
d) I will give a fight for my opponent to remember me by...
Nobody ever goes looking for confrontations. Those things just occur to the unwary. Criminals are streetwise. They will only attack if they feel they have an advantage. There will be two or more people working together. The attacker will have a weapon ready. Even if you had an RPG slung over your back, it will take time to ready it.

Budo was created by homicidal, paranoid samurai. They understood that the thread of life was fragile. It could be cut down in the middle of a heart beat. Therefore they trained to be aware 24x7. Much of this training was of the mind as well as body. One could even say that they used the body to get to the mind.

Of course I hope a confrontation like this does not happen to you. I hope it doesn't happen to any of us. However I think the training of being aware all the time is a valuable legacy. It is a goal that we can all try to achieve in our practice.

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
The Yoshinkan that I practice also stress on the factors I highlighted. But we speak very little about ki stuff. Maybe that was just your perspective.

Ossu!

Boon.
A friend of mine studied Tai Chi with a Chinese instructor for 11 years. During that entire period, the teacher only mentioned Chi once. Many instructors believe that when the student is ready then they will understand. So there really isn't any need to mention it.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:56 AM   #19
Mark Freeman
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Christopher Gee wrote: View Post
Ki

EXTENDING
FLOATING
UN liftable.....

Incredible. Sorry I used to practice Ki myself. I think there are an awesome set of principles their, but I could never make the applications work with other Aiki brands... probably just me.

Yoroshiku onegai shimasu.
probably just you

how can an 'awesome set of principles' be so ineffective?

No ki no aikido.

regards

Mark

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Old 11-06-2007, 02:44 PM   #20
Christopher Gee
 
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
probably just you

how can an 'awesome set of principles' be so ineffective?

No ki no aikido.

regards

Mark
Due to my past affilations and respect for those pervious Sensei I wont bite back on this particular comment. I will only bow deeply and respect your opinion to teach your Aikido how you please.

No need to be 'sorry' Mark, I train in a way much more suited to myself and I never mention such an 'undeterminable' word.

Musashi never 'extended his mind'... thats good enough for me.

Yoroshiku onegai shimasu

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Old 11-07-2007, 03:16 AM   #21
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Come on mate, this grandpa is gonna show you whose ur daddy!"
when did you morph into an east-end thug Boon...?

I'm always wary of applying "real uses in situation x y z" to ki principles, mainly because my own view of using ki within my practice is more akin to correct visualisation and mental posture rather than some nebulous energy I've managed to tap into.

However, within the confines of my own take on ki, no I don't have to be in touch with the ground to "extend ki", but I do have to be centered within myself so if the large attacker who's just used me like a rag doll has taken that away from me - no I couldn't use ki (or probably anything other than spastic flailing).

Personally, I find the ideas promoted by training as though Ki exists more helpful than trying to calculate the correct vectors on the fly or some other more mechanical approach, but whatever works for you is good.
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Old 11-07-2007, 07:32 AM   #22
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

From my understanding, ki is not something that can be "used". Ki is always flowing, but when we do things such as having bad posture, not eating right, not sleeping right, not breathing right,etc., we block or diminish the flow. Ki exercises help to increase the "Ki power". So, with proper practice, it should always be there, not some power that you try to summon forth to enhance your technique or give you power.
In those demonstrations where people are picked up, and then force the attackers to drop them, I believe at first that are demonstrating a stiff and unnatural posture making it easy to be picked up. After that, they once again assume a natural posture and then it becomes difficult to hold them up. However, I believe terms such as "unbendable" and "unliftable" are not meant to be taken literally. Ki is part of nature, and so is bound by the laws of physics.
As for being constantly aware, well, in my opinion, if we were, we wouldn't have a need for ushiro techniques. To me, ushiro techniques reflect the unexpected, unpredictable, unpreventable, and unforeseeable parts of life. So, I accept the possibility that someone can sneak up behind me and that once I'm in that situation I'll just have to deal with it.
That was the long answer, so here is the short one; Does one have to be grounded to use Ki energy? No. If you didn't have any Ki whenever you left the ground, you'd be dead. Can you use your Ki energy to get out of a situation? You'd have better chances using the force.

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Old 11-07-2007, 07:44 AM   #23
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Well, if you have the solidity of the ground in your hands, while letting another's force pass through you back into the ground, that could be considered an application of "ki" and "grounding". And it could also be considered a conditioned response. But I don't want to send this off into a "Non-Aikido" topic . . . . . . . . and not implying that I can do any of this . . . (why am I here?)

*throws smoke bomb and vanishes*

Last edited by Budd : 11-07-2007 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 11-07-2007, 11:14 AM   #24
Mark Freeman
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

Quote:
Christopher Gee wrote: View Post
Musashi never 'extended his mind'...
He didn't? my guess is that is exactly what he did do, without ever labeling it....but then we weren't there, so it will always remain an unanswered speculation.

glad you have found a way of practicing that suits you, no slight intended, but you did leave yourself open when you questioned your own ability

regards,

Mark

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Old 11-07-2007, 01:49 PM   #25
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Re: Ki and Remaining Grounded

I always question my own ability, seek answers from ANY instructor willing to give them, test my technique, fittness and spiritual or mental clarity with anyone with anyone 'superior' to myself.

Chuck out the old milk, refill the bottle and all that.

Heiho wa heiho nari - Otake Risuke
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