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Old 10-27-2007, 08:18 PM   #126
DonMagee
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Was it the Shihan who invited others to test him? Sorry, but may your students invite others to fight you without your permission?
I feel it is in bad form, but it is a standard here on aikiweb. I could probably find hundreds of posts inviting people to go fight people they may have only met or heard of.

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Amd most important. would the fight start without you being told? While you thought you are teaching?
Well, another fond point made by many people responding to these challenges is "There are no rules like in the ring.". Falls into that category. I'm not the kind of person to do this, but the culture of aikido does indeed seem to breed this attitude.

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
As for my point of origin:

My Sensei has had to face this type of behavior. He used to tell us that in his youth, he was stupid and fealt he has to win, which has almost injured one testing student, and on another situation, made the teacher overstretc while winning over a much larger and stronger student, who suddenly made it a test and did not know how to safely take the fal of the most suited technique, forcing my teacher to find a less suitable solution and ache for days later.
He told us this was stupid of him, and he should have simply told that student they are now doing something else.

As I wrote in an earlier message, I have seen a Shihan asked about the effectivness of a technique, and he consented to demonstrate how to reslove that issue. So I am not against the idea of putting a Shihan to the test. Though the examiner should consider age, health and strength when looking at the results.

I am skeptic and critical by nature, and ask 20 question and more about the techniques once I grasp the basics. But I believe in honoring the teacher I chose to learn from. If you can not respect him, do not come to his seminar \ class

Amir
I have no problem with that. I'm not even suggesting anyone go test the shihans. I would rather suggest they go test what they are taught.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
 
Old 10-28-2007, 06:22 AM   #127
stan baker
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

If you can block shihans that is their problem, it shows that their level of aiki needs to improve.

stan

,
 
Old 10-28-2007, 06:37 AM   #128
David Yap
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Just quoting the above as it is an important point that most seem to have missed.
Hi Rupert.

A separate thread titled "Goal-less instructors" perhaps.

Regards

David Y
 
Old 10-28-2007, 10:19 AM   #129
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Lee Price wrote: View Post
I think that you have some good points...but perhaps you are really only questioning the integrity of how people are practising aikido at a basic level when everything is static and you are given the opportunity to actually "lay hands" on Tori?. I could be wrong but what little information you have provided seems that you are talking mainly about static starts.
Tough to respond to this as I think we are on very different wavelengths. But you made an effort to be specific so I will too. Normally I don't like detailed point-by-point responses but I'll make an exception here. Static starts? No. Sometimes, but rarely. Most of the training I do uke is coming at nage, often much more realistically than the way most people in aikido train. Of course, I tone that down a lot when I go to seminars.

Quote:
Blocking here is ok but where is the energy? if there is no energy there is no aikido. All you are left with is an empty framework of techniques made more difficult to execute.
Simply put, there is always energy. It might not be what you want, but if the person is alive there is always some kind of energy.

Quote:
Even so I would assume that if you block in a certain manner that prevents the use of one technique, most advanced practioners could...if they cared too... easily switch techniques or move your centre enough to make a throw possible even from static....even if you yourself are giving no ki.
Yes, of course the techniques are made more difficult to execute. That is the whole point! Progressively increasingly the level of resistance until you able to throw someone who is trying to do the same to you. Anyone can do pretty, choreographed techniques with a compliant partner. When you can do them on a trained person trying to put you on the ground then will you have something that I would be interested in.

Quote:
In seminars etc most shihan are usually only demonstrating techniques at the level of most of the attendees..this is my point...not demonstrating true aikido where waza is instantaneously selected to match the current energies.
So at an aikido seminar I cannot expect a shihan to be doing aikido? Sad. I wonder where I can find it then if not from the leading representatives of the art called aikido.

Quote:
In your personal dojo/training your approach has real value...helping you progress from shodan level aikido..but in someones seminar perhaps it doesnt. When you travel to see a shihan it should be with the intention to share and learn from them...not with the intention to prove your latest theory or feed your ego.
If these guys are the best that an organization has to offer, and if the only way to put my hands on them is in this format, then I'm going to use that opportunity to find out what they can do. It's not to prove anything to anyone but to see what, if anything, they have beyond what their senior students on the mat have.

Quote:
Your posts have often left me with the feeling..perhaps unintentionally, that on some level you believe are superior to these shihan, and that they need to select compliant ukes to make their akido work. However from my experience shihan generally select the most suitable person to demonstrate the technique in question (or prevent injury when teaching basic techniques)...often not the underlying principles.
My experience is that most shihan (not all) select uke that make them look good. Usually this leaves me with the feeling that they either don't understand certain principles or don't wish to teach them, because the way these favored ukes attack is almost universally overly artficial and could easily be corrected by their long-time teacher if he wanted to do so. However, I don't see this happening. What I actually see is the opposite where the shihan encourages these fake attacks by selecting those students who give them to him.

Quote:
Generally though.while an interesting thread you are providing no real insights into how we might improve our training. Perhaps you should post us some video clips where we can see what you are doing.. and therefore provide the means to have a constructive discussion.
I don't have any recent video to post and even if I did I would be wary about posting it because it would not just be of me, and while I am prepared to expose myself to certain level of scrutiny I'm not sure I would want to do this to someone else. I had a bad experience doing that once and would not want to repeat it. If you want to see video of something similar in principle, I've posted a lot of links in my posts so that might be a good place to start.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-28-2007 at 10:21 AM.
 
Old 10-28-2007, 01:21 PM   #130
nemier
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

please post a link of something similar in principle.
 
Old 10-28-2007, 02:58 PM   #131
wxyzabc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Hya GDipierro

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Personally I feel the biggest issue here is that perhaps you are coming to conclusions about certain shihan based on very small interactions. Really how long are you spending with these people do be able to intimate that someone who has dedicated their lives to the art are actually to a degree self deluded in their true abilities? and to name them on a public site?.

I think you need to be careful here...I once did what you did after going to a seminar and taking ukemi for an aged shihan. First encounter seemed very unconnected, almost stiff and unfeeling...so I "tested" him at a later encounter...result was Ive never hit the mat so hard and it was pure kokyu which he didnt appear to use at all the first time. Of course based on the first encounter I could have made all kind of assumptions too.

You really need to spend some serious time with a teacher to know their true capabilities...especially people who have trained as long and at times as intensively as they have. A seminar is definitely not the place to do this...a mere snapshot in time..

Enjoy your training...

Lee
 
Old 10-28-2007, 08:56 PM   #132
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post

So at an aikido seminar I cannot expect a shihan to be doing aikido? Sad. I wonder where I can find it then if not from the leading representatives of the art called aikido.
Chiming in here. While I agree in principle that there are some things going on that I see as less than desirable in terms of how Aikido is taught and practiced, I can't help but instinctively feel from your posts that, while perceptive at times, you seem to be coming from such a presumptuous (and disputive) place that your conclusions seem to be based on the fallacy that you have enough information (and experience, frankly) to -really- judge all this. I have been teaching Aikido for 25 years, and one thing that I know is that there are different levels of "Aikido performance" :

Learning
Practicing
Performing/Demonstrating
Teaching
Doing

These overlap but are all different, and before anyone can judge a teacher's true skills, one had better find out what they are doing in these terms, rather than assume and then make judgement calls accordingly. When teaching at a seminar, unless you know the mind of the instructor in depth, you can't know where they are coming from. To add, at a seminar, it depends - an instructor may not have the luxury to really be doing Aikido, because of their responsibility to teach it and demonstrate it.

Now, if you had said that your "beef" was that so and so instructor was not Doing Aikido with you but expecting a certain kind of practice, and that was disappointing because you wanted to feel their skill in a different way or at a different level, to me that would be very different. But unless you actually know what they -were- doing, you have no idea what you experienced. You seem to presume that you got the best they had to offer. I would say - not likely. Maybe in some cases, but to me, you couldn't know that from what you describe at least.

Also, I can tell you from experience that there are times that someone will do something as the attacker with me that instead of "proving myself" etc., I will just walk away. There are basically two possible reasons why - one, because they are negative people and don't deserve my time, or - two, my real response could get them really hurt - not because of my intention but because of theirs. I know this from direct past experience. It has never had anything to do with whether or not I could "throw them." This is not a cop out, saying something like - well, I Could have done this or that etc...." - Because my style is extremely soft, I've been "tested" many times - and I've had enough experiences in Aikido and BJJ, in dojo, at seminars, and in the street, where my Aikido skills were "shown to be adequate." As have at least some of the Shihan you mention, I imagine.

This may or may not have had anything to do with what you experienced, but from reading your tone and what others have said who have encountered you, it might. To end, you might have something to offer at some level, but have you ever considered that much of how a message is received is how it's delivered? A lot like Aikido, in a sense.

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
 
Old 10-29-2007, 01:23 AM   #133
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

It seems to me that there are two distinct possibilities in this thread. The first is that I don't know what I'm talking about, as so many people have been suggesting, first quite rudely and now a bit more politely, and that the reason I am not seeing the same wonderful skill level in these men that all of these other people see is that I am simply missing it, either because they are hiding it from me or I just don't understand aikido well enough to see it. The second is that I actually do know what I'm talking about and the reason all of these other people don't see that is because they have not had sufficient exposure to such training to be able to understand what I am doing themselves.

At this point I feel that I have posted enough on that question and I don't care to argue the point anymore. If I actually do know what I'm talking about, there is no way that the people who think that I'm wrong will change their minds until they have had enough exposure to this kind of practice to understand what they missed that led them to reach the wrong conclusion. I don't know whether it is possible to give them that kind of exposure solely via the internet, but even if it were, I doubt that I would care to. I think I've put more than enough time and energy into this effort already and for the most part I have gotten back attacks and insults on my character and my level of understanding and ability as martial artist.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't think that I know what I'm talking about at this point should not investigate me or my claims any further. Please do not think about what I have said or make any effort to understand it. In fact, I would suggest that you stop reading my posts, and perhaps this whole thread, entirely. I think it would make you happier and I'm certain that it would make me happier. If that leaves anyone else left, then I'm still willing to continue the discussion, but at this point I'm done trying to convince anybody of anything. Either you believe me or you don't. I don't care which.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-29-2007 at 01:29 AM.
 
Old 10-29-2007, 01:46 AM   #134
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
It seems to me that there are two distinct possibilities in this thread. The first is that I don't know what I'm talking about, as so many people have been suggesting, first quite rudely and now a bit more politely, and that the reason I am not seeing the same wonderful skill level in these men that all of these other people see is that I am simply missing it, either because they are hiding it from me or I just don't understand aikido well enough to see it. The second is that I actually do know what I'm talking about and the reason all of these other people don't see that is because they have not had sufficient exposure to such training to be able to understand what I am doing themselves.
Actually, I have had 25 years of exposure to the kind of training you are talking about. To be frank, that's what gives me a sense of perspective, and from my vantage point, I feel that I can see many holes in your thinking, or at least how you have expressed your ideas on both "testing" people's skills and resistance training, as well as how you have gone about doing it, again, at least in so far as you have described it here. That's not to say that you have no idea what you are talking about, but again, cetainly the Way you talk about it for me leaves so much unaccounted for and unaddressed that the only conclusion that I can draw is that you only see a very small aspect of both "issues." And since I have seen important points brought up again and again that consistantly go unanswered by you that it supports my conclusions.

By the way, I personally at least didn't state my opinion of any shihan, only that I didn't think you had enough information, as you described things, to be able to make a full evaluation.

Quote:
At this point I feel that I have posted enough on that question and I don't care to argue the point anymore. If I actually do know what I'm talking about, there is no way that the people who think that I'm wrong will change their minds until they have enough exposure to this kind of practice to understand what they missed that led them to reach the wrong conclusion.
Since I feel that I have had extensive exposure, I think I'm addressing something else going on, at two different levels, which I described in my last post.

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't think that I know what I'm talking about at this point should not investigate me or my claims any further. Please do not think about what I have said or make any effort to understand it. In fact, I would suggest that you stop reading my posts, and perhaps this whole thread, entirely. I think it would make you happier and I'm certain that it would make me happier. If that leaves anyone else left, then I'm still willing to continue the discussion, but at this point I'm done trying to convince anybody of anything. Either you believe me or you don't. I don't care which.
Well therein lies some of the "issue" - the either you believe me or you don't thing.... given the unsubstantiated way you have presented things, the way some people have experienced you in person, and the way you have come across about the whole subject, how can you honestly expect any other reaction?

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
 
Old 10-29-2007, 06:01 AM   #135
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't think that I know what I'm talking about at this point should not investigate me or my claims any further.
OK by me. From what I have been able to find, your claims can't bear scrutiny anyway.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Please do not think about what I have said or make any effort to understand it. In fact, I would suggest that you stop reading my posts, and perhaps this whole thread, entirely. I think it would make you happier and I'm certain that it would make me happier. If that leaves anyone else left, then I'm still willing to continue the discussion, but at this point I'm done trying to convince anybody of anything. Either you believe me or you don't. I don't care which.
I'm not sure that making you happy is at the top of my Things To Do list, but I'm quite sure that I would never take what you say on face value. So, put me in the Nonbeliever category.

Thanks for posting, G-man. It's been an interesting discussion.

Avery Jenkins
www.averyjenkins.com
 
Old 10-29-2007, 12:27 PM   #136
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Larry Novick wrote: View Post
And since I have seen important points brought up again and again that consistantly go unanswered by you that it supports my conclusions.
And what are these points, exactly?

Quote:
By the way, I personally at least didn't state my opinion of any shihan, only that I didn't think you had enough information, as you described things, to be able to make a full evaluation.
I don't know what you mean by a "full evaluation." What I said, in various guises, was that these shihan train with far too little resistance for my taste. I never said that I wouldn't train with any of them again, as I am usually willing to give people another chance, but at this point what I've seen is not enough for me to go out of my way to train with them, particularly in the seminar environment, which I do not particularly enjoy training in the way most people teach. How much more information does one need to reach such a judgment beyond attending one of their seminars and making sure to touch hands with them at least once (preferably more than once, but in the case of Saotome it was his choice to avoid me after that)?

Quote:
Well therein lies some of the "issue" - the either you believe me or you don't thing.... given the unsubstantiated way you have presented things, the way some people have experienced you in person, and the way you have come across about the whole subject, how can you honestly expect any other reaction?
I think I've made plenty of effort to substantiate my claims. One of them was even verified by an eyewitness member of that teacher's own organization who was not at all sympathetic to me. On the other hand, you are taking at face value the far less substantiated claims of people who have spent maybe a few minutes with me here and there at seminars where I always have to compromise the way I would like to practice to fit those circumstances. You seem to think they are in a position to have an informed opinion of me but I'm not in a position to have an informed opinion of someone with whom I have spent several hours training with in their own class, where they can do whatever they want, and who I've similarly touched hands with on their own terms where they can set the rules of the engagement. Don't you see any flaws in that logic?

Anyway, let me be clear if I was not in my last post. I don't care at this point whether anyone believes me. I think I've made my case many times already and if you don't see the value in that then that's fine by me. Even in this post I'm just repeating things that I have said before and pointing out things that should be relatively obvious. And since you asked, yes I suppose I should have expected this reaction. It seems to be the typical behavior of aikido people to attack and insult anyone who questions the status quo or challenges the myths they hold about their teacher's skill levels.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-29-2007 at 12:30 PM.
 
Old 10-29-2007, 12:45 PM   #137
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote:
It seems to be the typical behavior of aikido people to attack and insult anyone who questions the status quo or challenges the myths they hold about their teacher's skill levels.
Quote:
Mark Twain wrote:
All generalizations are wrong, including this one.
...and that one.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
 
Old 10-29-2007, 12:55 PM   #138
odudog
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Giancarlo, what the person means by you not having a full evaluation is that what you expierenced at that point in time at the seminar might not be all there is to that Shihan. It is totally possible that the Shihan taught in that manner at the seminar for there may have been people at the seminar that don't practice with the resistance that you prefer. It doesn't mean that the Shihan does not practice in that manner at his own dojo. So you might not have met the true robust Shihan, but instead, the Shihan light. If you were to practice with the Shihan on a steady basis at his dojo then you might practice with the resistance. I have two instructors at my dojo that stated that most of the people in the dojo couldn't handle the way/style they learned the art for it is much too hard. So they don't teach it the way they learned it, therefore, instructors light. I on the other hand am able to handle some of their full versions, or at least I don't complain about it, so I have been on the business end of some of their techniques and know what they are truely capable of.
 
Old 10-29-2007, 04:18 PM   #139
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

I think the problem with conversations like these is they are hearsay. Regardless of the truth of things, a claim is made; skeptics reply with either counterclaims or "what if" statements and at the end of the day we're still left without anything other than food for thought.
I don't doubt that in at least some cases rank is more a measure of time spent than technical ability. These things happen in groups as big as Aikido. Over-specialization; ego; etc. all combine to create a minefield of preconceived notions; none of which can be substantiated over the internet. Testimonials can be given, but that's it (ie-more hearsay). Ignorance is part and parcel to the human condition and we're all subject to the same fallibilities; mix that with remote vantage points and it's no wonder we see so much second-guessing of each other.
As for replying to any given claim, we can what-if all we want and still never resolve its validity, no matter how unlikely it may seem when compared with our own perspective. The written word is a highly imperfect form of communication; particularly when we bring abstract or discrete concepts into play...and I think Aikido is subtle enough that it's a difficult thing to talk about for very long.
I've found myself writing replies to many a post only to delete them in frustration because I wasn't sure if I was really helping the conversation...particularly since my perspective is so far removed from mainstream Aikido, but if I were to add my two bit (I were ) I would say that it's simply impossible to verify Giancarlo's claim. All we can do is speak as if it were true and move on from there in a hypothetical form of debate, or speak as if it were untrue and move on from there in a similar fasion (or a bit of both of course). It seems to me that what's happening most often is folks debating various phrases and then expecting them to form some resolution about the truth of the basic claim and I repeat, that's impossible.
Now, I realize I'm not often a great communicator; and part of the reason is frankly i often miss what other folks are implying, so I appologize if I'm falling victim to that again here, but this is my take on these conversations. I see a lot of claims about Aikido, both good and bad, and I'm a little surprised to see how infrequently people offer caveats like "from what i can tell..." I imagine if more of those were employed there would be a less contentious conversation going on.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 10-29-2007, 04:25 PM   #140
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
...and that one.
Only because I'm in an impish mood will I say that I think I said it better than good ol' Sam Clemens when I said "people who make [generalizations] are never right, always."
ps-I love Mark twain...so rarely has there been a fellow I could agree with more about human nature...that I am aware of.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 10-29-2007, 04:59 PM   #141
wxyzabc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Yes...there are always 3 sides to every story...one persons side...the other persons side...and then theres the truth...

Lee
 
Old 10-30-2007, 09:06 PM   #142
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
It seems to me that there are two distinct possibilities in this thread. The first is that I don't know what I'm talking about, as so many people have been suggesting, first quite rudely and now a bit more politely, and that the reason I am not seeing the same wonderful skill level in these men that all of these other people see is that I am simply missing it, either because they are hiding it from me or I just don't understand aikido well enough to see it. The second is that I actually do know what I'm talking about and the reason all of these other people don't see that is because they have not had sufficient exposure to such training to be able to understand what I am doing themselves.
Yes, when you finish talking to yourself, you may wake up and see another possibility, which is what everyone is wasting their breath trying to tell you: That whether right or wrong, you lack the proper attitude and etiquette to co-operate in a dojo.
 
Old 10-30-2007, 09:42 PM   #143
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Why make such big fuss about resisting shihan? If that is your beef, go and play with Judo people... they get to resist their shihan/soke/sensei/coach etc regularly in Randori/Shiai.

It is like going to a McDonald's and complaining to the management that they do not serve l'apperitif and champagne.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
 
Old 10-30-2007, 11:30 PM   #144
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Vincent Nikopol wrote: View Post
Yes, when you finish talking to yourself, you may wake up and see another possibility, which is what everyone is wasting their breath trying to tell you: That whether right or wrong, you lack the proper attitude and etiquette to co-operate in a dojo.
Since the "proper attitude and etiquette" to cooperate in a dojo apparantly includes pretending that the teacher is some unstoppable force of martial perfection, I suppose you are right.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-30-2007 at 11:36 PM.
 
Old 10-31-2007, 01:55 AM   #145
xuzen
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Since the "proper attitude and etiquette" to cooperate in a dojo apparantly includes pretending that the teacher is some unstoppable force of martial perfection, I suppose you are right.
NO PRETEND!

Teacher say cooperate with me; I want to teach the proper execution for new student... you cooperate for benefit of new students.

Teacher say, resist me; I want to do some randori/jiyu waza coz I need some exercise... you resist and try to throw teacher.

There are proper time for proper things, mixing them up is bad ettiqutte.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
 
Old 10-31-2007, 04:54 AM   #146
Peter Ralls
Dojo: Suganami Aikikai SF
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

This thread is hilarious. A brief recap. Person of hazy and controversial background in aikido training goes to seminars and then later claims he stopped high ranking shihan from throwing him. Amazingly, no one else at these seminars seems to witness their teacher getting schooled by this prodigy.

Further, when the prodigy trains with muscular shodans at these same seminars, using, I assume, his self realized "resistive aikido", when they throw him, he has to tell them to stop, saying "Ow, ow, you're hurting me!" Of course, he could resist them, just like he does the shihan, but that would cause an akward situation he prefers to avoid. Somehow, he doesn't see any dichotomy between his professed ability to stop shihan, and his inability to keep from getting hurt by lowly shodans. He does have a sore neck, after all.

He then writes voluminous tracts explaining how he has realized that everyone else in the aikido world just falls down for their partners, but he, having studied "resistive training" has surpassed persons training four times longer than he. And last of all, some people actually seem to take this guy seriously.

I don't know whether to I should laugh or cry. But I've been laughing.
 
Old 10-31-2007, 07:28 AM   #147
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Not to defend GD, but how about we separate some of the "attitude" stuff from the ideas he's putting forth. There is another thread where that is happening naturally. I realize that he brought some of this stuff on himself, but hey, we all get that. Moving on now would be nice, as I think he has some good points.

Not that he needs me to defend him...or that I would be capable any way.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 10-31-2007, 08:24 AM   #148
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
If you can block shihans that is their problem, it shows that their level of aiki needs to improve.
Or it could just show that they don't want to kick a guy in the kin tama while he has all his strength and attention in his hands.....because it's not a fight...it's a class.....

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-31-2007, 08:25 AM   #149
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Not to defend GD, but how about we separate some of the "attitude" stuff from the ideas he's putting forth. There is another thread where that is happening naturally. I realize that he brought some of this stuff on himself, but hey, we all get that. Moving on now would be nice, as I think he has some good points.

Not that he needs me to defend him...or that I would be capable any way.

Best,
Ron
I didn't especially wish to get back to this thread, but....

FWIW, where we train it's like this (roughly):

6th Kyu to 3rd Kyu is more or less static training, uke applies extra force (extends ki) a lot and falls down easily in a very cooperative way. If there is a secondary attack such as katate tori followed by shomenuchi there is a count of 3 before the secondary comes in. All such training is emphasized as being about not resisting. The only exception to this are the rather simple self defence exercises we teach, but they are designed to be learnt and mastered quickly and so at their very first grading students are attacked in a (fairly) realistic way. At least as realistic as any self defence class i've ever seen or heard of (such as a womens self defence class or a hospital workers self defence class etc).

2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu is about flow and rhythm, prior to this uke would have began the attack by holding a wrist for example. Now, ma ai is increased and all attacks are 'on the move' (you kinda have to see it for a better explanation sorry).

1st Dan Not quite full out resistance but certainly a lot of active resistance to techniques nage tries to apply, if uke sees any openings they are allowed to hit nage (except for the head).

2nd Dan and above Full out active resistance, any openings uke sees they may take advantage of, occasional open handed strikes to the head may be seen but usually only when the senior sensei are being uke.

This goes for all general practice not just testing scenarios, though a grading tends to be more intense. It is not unusual for a dan grade candidate to have a 7th Dan uke for a large portion of their grading. Until not so long ago the aforementioned 7th Dan was the uke for all yudansha gradings, he lets some of the rest of us help out now though The general view is that shodan is an entrance exam, nidan is the hard one because that's when you get tested not for a black belt, but as a black belt.
Ki tests are required for all yudansha grades, the first two levels of ki test are required for 4th Kyu and 2nd Kyu. Yudansha candidates may be allowed to pass shodan perhaps without use of much ki/mind and body coordination/internal skill (depending on circumstance), but will be generally failed for doing so at nidan, all techniques must be applied to an actively resisting uke with coordinated mind and body, use of physical strength to do this tends to result in the candidate finishing their grading being exhausted and also failing.

Thought people might be interested in that, anyway, right back to the grind, numbers to go through, grrrrr.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
 
Old 10-31-2007, 08:38 AM   #150
Budd
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Ecosamurai - so based on the criteria you listed, you're able to apply aikido with jin/kokyu skills in a free-sparring environment against other skilled folks? Does the active resistance evolve into clinch/ground situations, with strikes, or do you keep at arms-length ma-ai?

Taikyoku Mind & Body
http://taikyokumindandbody.com
 

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