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Old 10-24-2007, 09:34 PM   #76
aikidoc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
I don't want to get involved in the rest of the discussion but the above caught my eye... nikkyo sankyo yonkyo don't have to hurt to be effective. I'm not unusually strong or anything, but my wrists don't happen to be very sensitive - nikkyo still works on me if it's applied correctly, even though it doesn't always hurt. If the lock is done correctly it'll effect my center and I won't be able to stand even though I'm not in pain. And reversely sometimes it really hurts but the pain only serves to piss me off.

kvaak
Pauliina
True, there are some who have gumby joints and locks simply don't work on them but their center can be controlled. Its the same as there are some with deep pressure points which don't work. My comment was in general-wrist locks are very uncomfortable with the average person. I had the ligaments in my wrist torn out on a sankyo-it has never been the same and that was about 13 years ago.
 
Old 10-25-2007, 04:30 AM   #77
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Although that is a also a fallacy in training. He was wrong by using your pause to explain as an opening, but you were wrong by showing he couldn't do that again.
Which was why I said:

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Not one of my finer moments.
Was one of my first few lessons as an instructor though so I'd hope to be forgiven

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
 
Old 10-25-2007, 05:30 AM   #78
David Yap
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
I don't want to get involved in the rest of the discussion but the above caught my eye... nikkyo sankyo yonkyo don't have to hurt to be effective. I'm not unusually strong or anything, but my wrists don't happen to be very sensitive - nikkyo still works on me if it's applied correctly, even though it doesn't always hurt. If the lock is done correctly it'll effect my center and I won't be able to stand even though I'm not in pain. And reversely sometimes it really hurts but the pain only serves to piss me off.

kvaak
Pauliina
Good point. I think there was a discussion before on this forum. I have trained with a few instructors with 20+ years training who have not gone beyond a level where they have realized that pain is not the sole factor or setup for a prefect technique. The infliction of pain can be addictive mostly for the person dispensing (20+ years is proof enough) and deem abusive for the receiver in the absence of care and control.

The trainings we receive are designed to neutralize the aggressive action of the aggressor rather than the aggressor himself. Most time, an uke would counter technique when he/she felt strong resistance from an aggressive nage (especially from one who lacks control and care); hence, the roles of the uke and nage reversed - the nage became the aggressor and uke the defender.

I find that the poser's claim of resisting a shihan's technique unusual and obscure as I have yet to feel any aggressiveness from any shihan despite my honest and committed attacks .

The 2008 IAF seminars at Tanabe, Japan next year will be a good experience for the poser to try his antics. He will have a choice of hombu and international shihan on the mats such as Tada and Tamura in their 80s or thereabout. Then, there is also the "notorious" Miyamoto shihan. For poser, please go and report your experience with us.

David Y
 
Old 10-25-2007, 06:41 AM   #79
Amir Krause
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
So you are saying that if I go take a regular class in the shihan's dojo then it's OK to give them some resistance, but it's not at a seminar?
I am saying that a there is (or can be) a right time for every type of practice. A seminar is for the Shihan to teach, not to prove himself. This is at least one reason you see so many people objecting to your ideas. I tried to explain the logic behind this norm in an earlier message.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
The whole purpose of seminars to give people access to instructors that they otherwise cannot work with. Why shouldn't that access include some demonstration of what the instructor can do? I traveled all the way there and paid my fee and I want to see how good this guy that the aikikai (or whatever organization) is touting as one of its best is against someone other than his trained dog-and-pony-show ukes. I don't see why that's unreasonable
When would be the appropriate time for a teacher to prove himself and to whom?
That depends on the teacher and his students. Some teachers might be open for anyone, others would limit the access to their students \ advance students. Some Shihans might feel they are no longer intersted in proving anything to anyone. Further, Each person might be willing for a different manner of testing, some may let you try and resisit a known technique, others may choose a pre-known situation, and still others may prefer some "free play" type of action.

For some reason, I do not think anyone has the right to coerce any teacher to prove himself. To me, this sounds somewhere between uncivilised and an assualt, in the criminal sense. A teacher holding a seminar is not entering the ring!

The way you present this compares the Shihans with top level boxers or wrestlers. But this is wrong, a Shihan is a high level teaching post, not a fighting post. One may evn teach you to do things he can not.

I try to think of ways to breach the conceptual gap, but doubt I can.

Amir
 
Old 10-25-2007, 07:15 AM   #80
nagoyajoe
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Remember, resistance is supposed to help nage develop their balance, technique and their mind-body connection; it is absolutely not about building uke's ego. Valuable, resistance should come at a point when it is appropriate to resist, not before. "Shihan" (as political as term as there possibly can be) should never walk away from resistance; instead they should welcome resistance WHEN APPROPRIATE. Remember, aikido is about bringing the (positive) mind and body together to perform technique and function in society. This is what we all must learn. Demonstrations are one thing, that is aikido in theory; practice is a completely different thing altogether.
 
Old 10-25-2007, 07:40 AM   #81
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
I am saying that a there is (or can be) a right time for every type of practice. A seminar is for the Shihan to teach, not to prove himself. This is at least one reason you see so many people objecting to your ideas. I tried to explain the logic behind this norm in an earlier message.

When would be the appropriate time for a teacher to prove himself and to whom?
That depends on the teacher and his students. Some teachers might be open for anyone, others would limit the access to their students \ advance students. Some Shihans might feel they are no longer intersted in proving anything to anyone. Further, Each person might be willing for a different manner of testing, some may let you try and resisit a known technique, others may choose a pre-known situation, and still others may prefer some "free play" type of action.

For some reason, I do not think anyone has the right to coerce any teacher to prove himself. To me, this sounds somewhere between uncivilised and an assualt, in the criminal sense. A teacher holding a seminar is not entering the ring!

The way you present this compares the Shihans with top level boxers or wrestlers. But this is wrong, a Shihan is a high level teaching post, not a fighting post. One may evn teach you to do things he can not.

I try to think of ways to breach the conceptual gap, but doubt I can.

Amir
Yet so many people on this forum will have no problem defending their position by telling you to go to a seminar or class of X shihan and 'try that on them'

But if you do, then you get this side of the argument.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
 
Old 10-25-2007, 08:42 AM   #82
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Hi Don, but Amir has never made that statement (at least that I've read). He can hardly be held to account for something someone else from an entirely different organization (let alone art) has said.

Quote:
What in the world purpose would a nikyo serve if there was no pain.
To control and compress the person's body. I had a good time at a semiar with one of the senior students at my dojo...every time I train with him he's progressed farther and farther. In Yoshinkan, one form of shihonage involves what can be a pretty severe lock on the wrist, elbow and shoulder. I resisted as much as I could to prevent the lock (not punching and kicking, just adapting my body and limbs), felt no pain, and he still got the lock.

I'm definately not saying that everyone in aikido should never produce pain with a lock...but at the higher levels at least, that is what I've come to look for...the ability to lock without pain or other signals that give me something to fight against.

By the way, this student encouraged my resistance, we've known each other a *long* time, tested together, etc. He gave me resistance too, allowing me to try to approach the same quality in the waza.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 10-25-2007, 08:44 AM   #83
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Yet so many people on this forum will have no problem defending their position by telling you to go to a seminar or class of X shihan and 'try that on them'

But if you do, then you get this side of the argument.
That's the point I was trying to make in my last post. Let's recap the exchanges that led to me being challenged on the first claim:

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ukemi as I've seen it from 8th dans is for Martial arts dupes.
Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Maybe you need to see (and feel) a few more eighth dan. Or if you can deign to lower yourself , a seventh dan like Ikeda-sensei, or a couple of sixth dan in my neck of the woods. By the way, it's comments like that one that make you so lovable.
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Jim, I've taken ukemi for nearly a half-dozen Aikikai 8-dans and I generally agree with his statement. My opinion is that all but one of these teachers expect and require their ukes to "give" them the technique. In other words, if I were to realisitically attack them rather than just letting them take control of my center, they could not throw me. I don't know Dan, but based on his posts, I'd guess that if they can't throw me, they probably can't throw him either.
The response to that was not that these teachers need me to give them compliant ukemi in a seminar setting because they are not there to prove themselves. That would have led to an entirely different discussion, similar to what had already taken place in the thread from which that discussion originated before it was moved.

The actual response I received was (and this is just the more polite part):

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
No, the real issue is that, based on your short study of aikido, as well as my interactions with you on the mat at DC, I don't believe that you could stop Saotome-sensei's technique. For that matter, I don't believe you could stop my technique, either.
The second claim came out of this exchange:

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
You might not know this but a while back I traveled quite a bit out of my way to train with your teacher. He seemed like one of the most genuinely humble 8-dans I have met, and since his organization in the US is still very small you probably won't have a lot of the problems of the bigger established orgs. ... However, even many of the better teachers I have met in the aikikai (including yours) are still far too averse to testing their techniques against resistance for my taste. To some extent I can pass this off as them being old Japanese men set in their ways, but it still makes it hard for me to accept what they do at face value when I know that if they were willing to fail a bit more often they wouldn't need to rely on compliant ukemi so much.
Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
Interesting. My sensei gets upset if you don't try to attack or hold him strongly although he will often back off if he feels he will hurt someone by executing. I'm curious if you took ukemi and tried to stop him. Now I'd really be interested in seeing if you could reverse him-even get a technique to work on him. Or stop him if he really wanted to do the technique with full force.
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Yes, a couple years ago. I touched hands with him many times. I don't want to say anything bad about him because he was such a nice guy, but yes I gave him some resistance and he had enough trouble with for me know that he's not used to getting that kind of thing very much.
Again, the response was not that they must rely on compliant ukemi because it is a seminar situation and they are not there to prove themselves. It was (again, only the polite part here):

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
Wow! I'm impressed. One of the last people that tried to stop him was a former student. At the hombu dojo he was famous for trying to stop other shihan while they were teaching. He tried that with my sensei and he was knocked out. When he came to he became a student and studied with him for 12 years in Japan.
The response was that he knocked out the last guy who tried to stop him on the mat. Sounds like he has no problem proving himself.

Point is that you can't argue that nobody can stop these guys and that the ukemi for them is real while simultaneously arguing that a seminar is not the right place to test them and they need fake ukemi because it's a teaching situation. It's one or the other. The people who questioned my claims that I find these shihan to rely too much on cooperative training for my taste, backed up by having tried to stop them myself and been successful, took the first option and challenged me to provide evidence that I did actually stop these teachers, which I did. If you want to take the second option that's an entirely different debate and one which has been done before (see the first thread I linked to above).
 
Old 10-25-2007, 09:31 AM   #84
Lan Powers
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

[quote=.

By the way, this student encouraged my resistance, we've known each other a *long* time, tested together, etc. He gave me resistance too, allowing me to try to approach the same quality in the waza.

Best,
Ron[/QUOTE]

The optimal time for resistance training is from a position of deep trust. Both agreeing on the parameters of what you are exploring, both learning, and no ego involved......sounds like a great time.
(very revealing too, I would wager)
Lan

Last edited by Lan Powers : 10-25-2007 at 09:38 AM.

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
 
Old 10-25-2007, 09:49 AM   #85
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

I would never give him that much resistance without that trust...he's fourth dan, larger and stronger to boot. Not to mention an ex golden gloves level boxer... I lose on all accounts!

Best,
Ron (my loss is actually my gain...If I can take his balance and throw him without ticking him off, I'm improving!)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 10-25-2007, 10:01 AM   #86
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Lan Powers wrote: View Post
The optimal time for resistance training is from a position of deep trust. Both agreeing on the parameters of what you are exploring, both learning, and no ego involved......sounds like a great time.
(very revealing too, I would wager)
Lan
This is good advice if you are just starting out with resistance training and want to play around with your friends. That's actually how I started myself four or five years ago, just playing around after class with people I trusted. It was still quite scary at first going from so many years of compliant training, which teaches you the techniques but does not properly prepare you to apply them spontaneously (in fact I think it often teaches the wrong habits for spontaneous training). Once (or if) you start doing it regularly with different partners, you will start to understand the dialog patterns and will then be able to do it with anybody. If you look at people in arts like BJJ or even Shodokan aikido, they have no problems doing resistance training in a fully competitive situation with someone they have never even met in a tournament because they both have trained enough to know what to expect.

If you take two aikido people who have never done resistance training and let them go it, they will tend to revert to what they know, which can be dangerous in resistance training against someone who is unprepared for it (which would be both of them). If one has experience with such training, he can guide the other just as an experienced BJJer could guide a beginner without hurting him and without getting hurt either. That's probably the optimal way to learn, but most people don't have that option available.
 
Old 10-25-2007, 02:57 PM   #87
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
If one has experience with such training, he can guide the other just as an experienced BJJer could guide a beginner without hurting him and without getting hurt either. That's probably the optimal way to learn, but most people don't have that option available.
It can be true, however neither Daito ryu, neither early aikido as developed by O sensei wasn't designed to resisting training. In Daito ryu training it is formally forbidden to resist. In the other hand O sensei didn't developed aikido as strictly combat techniques, rather as misogi training.
So one may see all this attempt (resisting training) as false and completely useless.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
 
Old 10-25-2007, 03:23 PM   #88
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
My comment was in general-wrist locks are very uncomfortable with the average person. I had the ligaments in my wrist torn out on a sankyo-it has never been the same and that was about 13 years ago.
John, in the the post I replied to you said : "What are you studying? Dance. Martial arts involve pain. What in the world purpose would a nikyo serve if there was no pain."

My own experience is that nikkyo doesn't have to be painful in order to work. It can serve the purpose of controlling my center even without pain. It's not a case of my center somehow being controlled in a different way and the hands just happen to be in a nikkyo position - it's a case of the nikkyo lock being done in such a way that it doesn't hurt, but there's a connection all the way to my center, which is used to control my center.

Hope that made sense...

kvaak
Pauliina
 
Old 10-25-2007, 03:35 PM   #89
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
So one may see all this attempt (resisting training) as false and completely useless.
Funny, that's pretty much what I think of most of the compliant training I see in aikido, although I wouldn't call it "completely useless", since people do seem to get something out of it. Anyway, I'm not interested in debating what you or anyone else thinks some dead guy might have intended. To me, that and so many of the other debates on here are like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I don't care about speculation, I just want to see what you can do and what it's good for. For me right now, compliant training is good for very little whereas resistance training is getting me closer to where I want to be. But that's just my decision based on my current needs and where I'm trying to go in my aikido. If you want to do compliant training go ahead, I don't have any problem with it. Just don't call it resistance training when it's not.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-25-2007 at 03:37 PM.
 
Old 10-25-2007, 03:46 PM   #90
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

As far as my understanding goes (which is very limited), pain has a very specific place and purpose in Aikido. It is not a tool to make the person comply, and should never be the intended final outcome of a technique. It is a tool to get the ki flowing, or the body or limb turning the direction you want it to go. To get that effect, you shouldn't have to cause any real pain, just the notion of pain, enough to incite movement in the correct direction. That's why the pins in Aikido are not pain compliance techniques, and are, as far as i'm concerned, quite comfortable (unless I resist) in comparison to some other variations I have had the opportunity to experience.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
 
Old 10-25-2007, 03:58 PM   #91
Jeffrey Brown
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

I have to say that I am glad that I have never trained with you at a seminar. I personally find it very frustrating when being taught something and having a resistant uke. One of my sensei commonly says "when you are uke you are uke and when you are nage you are nage". By attempting to exploit a weakness or to challenge a technique that you are expecting to happen you are actually detracting from the learning experience for your training partner. Resistance training is all good and well however significant resistance when using a pre-determined pattern of attack and response is somewhat unrealistic and leads people to falsely believe they can shut down this or block that. Most good aikido folks I have trained with would eventually use the opportunity to benefit from your resistance and plant you with your own force. I wonder would you find it appropriate to attack a shihan with an attack that is not being used in that teaching moment. Such as the attack is supposed to be shomen uchi, would you find it appropriate to walk up and feint a shomen uchi and quickly hook to the face? In essence this is what you are doing. Changing the expectations of the uke and nage role without giving fair warning to your training partner. It appears to me you are failing to train half for yourself and half for your partner. All people have weaknesses, all techinques have openings.....that is just the way it is. Accept it, move on and enjoy training.
 
Old 10-25-2007, 08:18 PM   #92
aikidoc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Ok. So I overspoke. Wrist locking techniques should lock the individual out. On some people all you get is a lock no pain. On others -most of us. THere is also pain involved. I for one lock up immediately with pain-stiff joints-so I'm easy. However if you don't get a lock and by that I mean a control of the person's center or body then the technique can be stopped or reversed.

The conversations are beginning to be like a dog catching a tail. It keeps changing to suit the situation. Either it can be done or it can't be done under any situation. If it is only in the artificial situation of slow motion teaching during which it is fairly easy to anticipate and try to counter then to me that shows nothing about the ability to stop the technique. If someone is a gumby and their joints disengage the technique that is unrealistic in the sense that in a real situation the nage would simply realize the person does not know how to protect themselves and either do something else or back off the technique. As to stopping Saotome, I'll have to look at the thread and see what the other person said. My students stop me all the time if I talk too much or am not focusing enough while demonstrating a technique in slo-mo, however, that generally makes them very vulnerable to a counter-what Saotome calls oyo-henka. If you stopped him as you say, I'm surprised he did not do oyo-henka on you (see his DVD).
 
Old 10-25-2007, 08:21 PM   #93
aikidoc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

I will search for the DVD on you stopping Kato sensei. We will have to assume there was a camera on the situation. If so then we will know. If there was not a camera on it then nothing is proven. If anyone has the DVD of Saotome being stopped e-mail me I'd like to see that situation as well. Perhaps I'll learn something.
 
Old 10-25-2007, 09:45 PM   #94
Joe Jutsu
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Almost missed your post. I'll put him on my list of people to seek out. One thing that should also be mentioned is that both of the statements I have publicly made about stopping shihan were in direct response to challenges from students of those shihan who claimed that their teachers allowed people to attack them as hard as they could and try to stop them and that they have never seen anyone succeed at doing so. So all of this stuff about seminars not being the right place for such things apparantly doesn't apply to these two teachers, at least not according to their own senior students.

If I train with someone who makes it clear that he doesn't want people to try to resist him, as Endo did this past weekend, then I have no problem taking compliant ukemi for that teacher. But if you put the claim out there that your teacher lets people try to stop him at seminars if they want to and nobody ever can, then you can't backtrack after the fact and say that seminars are not the right place for testing teachers and trying to stop them. Although the people who made those claims about their teachers are not the ones now making this argument, apparantly those who are have not bothered to notice the circumstances under which my statements about these teachers were made.
I've never seen him accept a challenge, but working at full resistance and learning how to relax and move through the "bumps" is one theme I've seen him address many times. So it was fun to see him work with uke's outside of Ki Society last year in CO. If that's the sort of thing your looking for, I believe he's holding a seminar in Denver sometime in December. I'm going to do my best to be there.

Take care,

Joe
 
Old 10-25-2007, 10:34 PM   #95
Nikopol
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Mike,

"I can sweep your legs" has to be the most memorable phrase I have heard after, "Here, grab my wrist".

Classic!

Giancarlo,

Smiles to you because any other response is unimaginable, seeing how much you find to say about any little idea another human being might offer. Please someone do a word count!

Being Italian American like yourself, I truly sympathize with your diarreah of the mouth. In Japan they call this 'herikutsu', and man does it piss folks off. But that is culture.

That aside, you really should find a good teacher and become an uchideshi. I think you probably have a lot of wasted talent.
I know that in spite of being talkative to the extreme you are a very lovable person.

This thought popped into my head.
"Nothing can be said until all is known".

It would be sad for us all if all we knew is what we were in the habit of saying.
 
Old 10-25-2007, 10:47 PM   #96
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Vincent Nikopol wrote: View Post
Giancarlo,

Smiles to you because any other response is unimaginable, seeing how much you find to say about any little idea another human being might offer.
I gotta agree. Giancario sure can keep a discussion lively. Keep on truckin' G.
 
Old 10-25-2007, 11:38 PM   #97
xuzen
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
John, in the the post I replied to you said : "What are you studying? Dance. Martial arts involve pain. What in the world purpose would a nikyo serve if there was no pain."

My own experience is that nikkyo doesn't have to be painful in order to work. It can serve the purpose of controlling my center even without pain. It's not a case of my center somehow being controlled in a different way and the hands just happen to be in a nikkyo position - it's a case of the nikkyo lock being done in such a way that it doesn't hurt, but there's a connection all the way to my center, which is used to control my center.

Hope that made sense...

kvaak
Pauliina
I too wish that nikajo does not need pain to work... but I usually see grimace on my uke's face. Therefore I know pain is there. Not sure whether they go down because of pain or because of me taking away their balance... but I would prefer that they went down because I took their balance away rather than the pain.

But then I do regularly jo/bokken suburi, so maybe my wrist are more conditioned than the average JOE.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
 
Old 10-26-2007, 02:20 AM   #98
G DiPierro
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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Jeffrey Brown wrote: View Post
I have to say that I am glad that I have never trained with you at a seminar. I personally find it very frustrating when being taught something and having a resistant uke. One of my sensei commonly says "when you are uke you are uke and when you are nage you are nage". By attempting to exploit a weakness or to challenge a technique that you are expecting to happen you are actually detracting from the learning experience for your training partner. Resistance training is all good and well however significant resistance when using a pre-determined pattern of attack and response is somewhat unrealistic and leads people to falsely believe they can shut down this or block that.
I think this guy would disagree with you, but then again what does he know? I'm sure you and your sensei have a much better understanding of aikido than he does.
 
Old 10-26-2007, 05:29 AM   #99
Christopher Gee
 
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Dojo: United Traditional Aikido
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

I dont wish to paraphrase, or come in towards the end of a finished race. However, DiPierro has made some great points in this forum. My main and unwavering agreement, will be the culture of teachers taking only their inner most students as ukes and those techniques working oh so divinely on those close students. Then those very same students seem to be agasp when those very same techniques do not produce the some lighting gymnasics from other ukes. Then the accusations of resistance come into play. My thoughts (IMHO) are that life, contains resisitance, conflict and violence, which are, just as natural as the circular movements of the universe. To drag up another tired metaphor about the lack of resistance in the world, I think reduces the importance that Aikido can have.

Admittedly challenging a shihan in front of a whole class is a no no.

Regards,

Heiho wa heiho nari - Otake Risuke
 
Old 10-26-2007, 10:07 AM   #100
Don
Dojo: aikido of charlotte
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Actually, watching Tamura is very interesting. At the USAF summer camp a few years ago when he came, I started trying to watch him up close when he would come around and do the same sort of thing with Yudansha. I watched him do this as much as I could and what I saw was really interesting.

He would ask, for instance a big young yudansha to grab him and he would effortlessly do the technique. He made as sure as possible that it was a strong attack and not just a perfunctory grab.
Then he would grab the yudansha and the yudansha could not move Tamura. At first it seemed hard to believe. But the more I watched, and I think it was what Tamura wanted us to figure out (you know Japanese teaching method....don't tell you...you steal it) was that at the moment the yudansha would START to grab Tamura, he would subtly shift his hand/arm/body position that would disadvantage uke and give tamura, even at 80 a strong body structure. He was VERY subtly leading his uke. With his years of practice it was so subtle it took me all week just to begin to figure it out. He would do the same thing when the roles were reversed so that his structure could resist uke's efforts who did not lead tamura.

So that kind of resisting is instructive. However, the technique wasn't changed and tamura didn't really lock down; and in fact the idea of locking down is not really productive resistance in that it freezes both uke and nage. Furthermore, most any 80 year-old is not going to have the muscularity to lock down. Yet here was proof that proper leading and body structure can provide strength. Further it was Tamura, the instructor, who encouraged resistance and not the other way around where the uke who the instructor choses decicdes on their own to experiment in front of the seminar.
 

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