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Old 10-12-2007, 11:03 AM   #1
ChrisHein
 
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Tomiki/Shodokan-Shihonage.

Hey this is for all the Tomiki/Shodokan guys out there, do you ever see shihonage in resistive randori? I've been looking for a clip, but I can't find it. How commonly do you see the technique pulled off at competitions?

Thanks.

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Old 10-12-2007, 02:23 PM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Tomiki/Shodokan-Shihonage.

Not shodokan myself, but I hear that it's not allowed (at least not all versions) in competition because of the risk to practioners. One of only a few they don't allow, I believe.

Someone prettier than I am will be along to correct me shortly...

B,
R (they should have a website out there that lists waza permitted in competition)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:58 PM   #3
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tomiki/Shodokan-Shihonage.

Hi Folks,

Ron is partially correct. Shiho Nage (what we refer to as Tenkai Kotegaeshi) is allowed in competition but it must be executed such that the other person's balance is broken to the rear long the line of the spine. In other words, the version that takes the arm out to the side, twisting the shoulder at the end, resulting in a kotegaeshi type ukemi, is not allowed in shiai due to a high potential for injury to the shoulder. This version can be found here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9F04U92suk (excellent Yoshinkan demo btw).

An example of the allowed version can be found here - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10c.html . It can be clearly seen that Uke's arm is guided along his head and down his back as against outwards to the side.

From my own experience it's quite effective and can be executed with a lot of power, even if one does not twist to the side, however for me it works best when dealing with a taller person, which does not happen that often in my case. Our basic counter for this waza is quite effective so one must have good kuzushi to get it working under resistance. If I find a video with it being executed in shiai I'll post it.

Regards.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-12-2007, 09:15 PM   #4
Bob King
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Re: Tomiki/Shodokan-Shihonage.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Hi Folks,

Ron is partially correct. Shiho Nage (what we refer to as Tenkai Kotegaeshi) is allowed in competition but it must be executed such that the other person's balance is broken to the rear long the line of the spine. In other words, the version that takes the arm out to the side, twisting the shoulder at the end, resulting in a kotegaeshi type ukemi, is not allowed in shiai due to a high potential for injury to the shoulder. This version can be found here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9F04U92suk (excellent Yoshinkan demo btw).

An example of the allowed version can be found here - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10c.html . It can be clearly seen that Uke's arm is guided along his head and down his back as against outwards to the side.

From my own experience it's quite effective and can be executed with a lot of power, even if one does not twist to the side, however for me it works best when dealing with a taller person, which does not happen that often in my case. Our basic counter for this waza is quite effective so one must have good kuzushi to get it working under resistance. If I find a video with it being executed in shiai I'll post it.

Regards.
Seen it done one or twice, but not a high precentage technique in competition tanto randori due to tantos resistance and counter attack opportunities.

.
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Old 10-13-2007, 12:15 PM   #5
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tomiki/Shodokan-Shihonage.

Quote:
Robert King wrote: View Post
Seen it done one or twice, but not a high precentage technique in competition tanto randori due to tantos resistance and counter attack opportunities..
True. From what I've seen and done the trick to getting it off under resistance is to have very solid grounding and an ability to channel your entire body's power through your spine and into your arms to get a good kuzushi. This leaves minimal time to recover from the kuzushi while the rest of the waza is executed. Solid posture is critical. I've also found that if one sets up for Mae Otoshi and it is resisted, Tenkai Kotegaeshi is already half way to completion.

Just some thoughts.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-13-2007, 07:16 PM   #6
Charlie
 
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Re: Tomiki/Shodokan-Shihonage.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
...This version can be found here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9F04U92suk (excellent Yoshinkan demo btw)...
It better be! That's the Yoshinkan honbu...Ando sensei to be exact.

Charlie

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Old 10-13-2007, 07:45 PM   #7
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Tomiki/Shodokan-Shihonage.

I've been getting them a lot lately in resistive practice, but I had to change the set up a bit from the forms we do. I would really like to see one done in a shiai.

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Old 10-13-2007, 10:14 PM   #8
Bob King
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Re: Tomiki/Shodokan-Shihonage.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I've been getting them a lot lately in resistive practice, but I had to change the set up a bit from the forms we do. I would really like to see one done in a shiai.
As Larry said it requires very good posture and ability to send power or weight through your arms and keep the uke pinned on one foot. It mostly happens tenkan, not irimi. Most ukes/tantos in competition feel the push on the elbow to set tenkaigotegaeshi up and will pull the arm back in to the hip and try to square back up with you, which is why I to tend try sumiotoshi or aigame ate coming off tenkaikotegaeshi. But it is possible to spin back to tenkaikotegaeshi off maeotoshi and that's a nice combo if you can swing it.
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Old 10-19-2007, 09:53 PM   #9
Matthew White
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Re: Tomiki/Shodokan-Shihonage.

Maybe I'm just anal about verbiage, but I don't like the word "resistance"... if there's resistance against the technique, it is no longer the appropriate technique.
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Old 10-19-2007, 10:21 PM   #10
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tomiki/Shodokan-Shihonage.

Quote:
Matthew White wrote: View Post
Maybe I'm just anal about verbiage, but I don't like the word "resistance"...
There are two threads on the topic of resistance going along right now - one in the Voices of Experience area - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...7&goto=newpost and another here - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...6&goto=newpost.

Both deal with the subject of "resistance" and its place in Aikido training. What exactly don't you like about the word?
Quote:
Matthew White wrote: View Post
if there's resistance against the technique, it is no longer the appropriate technique.
In a place called "Perfect" the above is absolutely true, however I haven't met or heard of anyone from there that is able to express that level of Aiki and that includes Aikido's founder.

Resistance will happen in any training where your partner gets to use his free will, the question is - how does ones training assist one to deal with it in a manner commensurate with Aikido's principles...

Just some thoughts.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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