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Old 10-18-2007, 05:35 PM   #51
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
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ONE word for racism deniers, in the US...KATRINA

Quote:
Tom Fish wrote: View Post
Hi Niel,
My understanding from Shane's post is that his community is not the racist hell-hole portrayed in the national news. I agree also that Jesse and Al have their personal agenda that mostly benefits themselves rather than their race, truth, or justice.
I think it's awfully funny that I hear this refrain, a lot. "Oh, if Jesse and Al are on the camera...why they MUST be doing it, solely for their narrow agenda:" not once considering that EVERYONE on the MSM has an "agenda."

How about maybe they have BOTH an "agenda;" AND they are standing up for racial equality, truth and justice?

Naah...couldn't be. But the facts speak for themselves. The Jena 6 were not given a fair due process. Not you, nor Shane, nor anyone else has denied that fact.

To me, this says it all.

Quote:
It's easy to look through a prism and see only the light that you want. All you need to do is select the agenda you want, filter out anything that doesn't fit, shout out the "proof" gained from the evidence that fits, and presto!!! The truth as you want to know it.
I think we can agree that there is racism in this country. I don't like it anymore than you do. I have seen a big change in our culture though, that makes racism unacceptable. Bigotry, hatred, and discrimination are no longer accepted in our society.
And yet, here we are: arguing about whether or not these kids were the victims of racism. Family members of the Jena 6 now have their personal contact information published online by hate groups. Sorry, Tom: but the empirical evidence suggests that racism is indeed alive in this country. It may not be so blatant as water cannons and police dogs: but all you have to do is consider David Duke's diatribes against the march (that I linked earlier), to prove my point.

Quote:
It is not normal or common to hate people because of their race today.
Correction: it is not normal or common to express racist beliefs or ideas in general discussion. Racism is alive and well in contemporary society. The evidence is too broad to ignore.

Quote:
What is too common, are people who try to use fear, hatred, and misrepresentation to further their own personal agenda. These people don't care who gets caught in the middle. Unfortunately, the people of Jenna, all of them, are painted as racists with one big stroke of the brush. Shane was just trying to show some one else's perspective. Let's don't let him off of the hook though. His location proves he is racist.
Whatever. Your post utterly ignored the question of due process, for the Jena 6. Shane might not have made the same mistake: but he is all for denying Mychal Bell his due process, just because he thinks that Mychal Bell is a "menace."

You think that racism is dead, Tom? I've got one word for you:

KATRINA

Think about it.

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
Wow!

Thanks for the reply Neil. I got exactly what I expected to from this post.

Shane
Happy to oblige. Too bad you cannot/will not respond, in depth.

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
The abuse of power by the judge and DA is not necessarily racist. It could happen to anyone he has a personal grudge aginst. I've seen it. Black and white...maximum charges if they don't like you...reduced or dropped charges and probation for friends. Don't get caught doing something stupid during election year...Mychal Bell was not shown any sympathy; probably because the DA and Judge were tired of seeing him appear in court for violent crimes and figured the probation was not turning his behavior around. (My well informed opinion)
Riight. That's not "racism," or "conflict of interest." That's just a good ole' American personal grudge. The DA just doesn't LIKE Mychal Bell, and so he decided to threaten the student body, as a means to calm them down.

Yeah. That always works. As a teacher, I often find that threatening to end my students' lives solves all disciplinary problems.

Personal grudges, an obvious conflict of interest (the DA is ALSO the attorney for the school board: who advised the disciplinary hearing not to interview the boys), had EVERYTHING to do with the DA's fervor. Racism had NOTHING to do with it.

Sure it didn't.

Until you consider Walters' remarks about the marchers...

Quote:
Reed Walters wrote:
Had it not been for the direct intervention of the Lord Jesus Christ last Thursday, a disaster would have happened," District Attorney Reed Walters said. "You can quote me on that."
I guess the DA just has problems with people marching against his attempts to rework the justice system, down in Mississippi. The skin-color of the marchers had no effect on the DA's remarks at all!

Anyone with bridges to sell...now's the time to pipe up!

This is why racism needs denial so badly: so that generally hostile remarks like this can slip "under the wire."

Quote:
I have seen changes here since all this started and not for the better. AA and white people who were part of each others' lives on a daily basis have become distant. They are still working together and interacting but there is a lingering tension that's almost as if they don't know what to say to each other anymore. It's sad...Thanks Al. Thanks Jesse.
Yeah...that mean ole' Jesse n' Al gang...putting guns and nooses in kids' hands; telling DA's to do the jobs meant for school superintendents. Gods, when will these malcontents be stopped!!! Frankly, Shane: I'd say that Jena had a problem, even before the arrival of the dreaded Jesse 'n Al Gang. Continued denial will insure that that problem stays around, long after the world forgets about Jena, and Mychal Bell.

Quote:
The nooses...I can remember when we hung nooses from another tree at our school to signify the "Hang 'em High" slogan we used as a battle cry for an upcoming football game with a rival school. No one seemed to mind then.
That first sign of racism rears its ugly head again. And, it's not a river in Egypt (denial).

Quote:
I do not believe the intent behind those nooses was racist. I may be wrong. I did not hang them.
Thank you for that acknowledgement. See that's the thing: you don't really know. Neither do I. We cannot get inside those kids' heads. But all the rest of the story (the shotgun threats; the violence at the party; the DA's comments and behavior) stinks of the "r"-word.

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
Neil,

After thinking on your post for a while I have decided to answer one of your questions/assumptions.

The answer is no.

Shane
Thank you for that enlightening non-answer. Now, onward and upward. NEXT!

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-18-2007 at 05:47 PM.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 06:05 PM   #52
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
Wow! Thanks for the reply Neil. I got exactly what I expected to from this post.
You know, Shane, we're taught as martial artists to inflict severe damage with the bare hands and feet. A boxer can kill a strong, healthy man while wearing a big, puffy boxing glove on his hand. So the fact that six athletes happened to be wearing tennis shoes while kicking an unconscious boy in the head does not lessen the deadliness of the attack or the hate content of their actions.

Those who try to minimize that fact are acting out of a racism of their own. Further, to equate nooses hung on a tree, touching no one, with a six-on-one attack (and calling that a "schoolyard fight") is a kind of "hate crime" in itself.

Jun restricted my access to this site for two days after I posted # 35, not because of the content, he said. He didn't dispute that. He said the problem was my "tone," though I don't see how the tone of Post #35 was worse than Neil's statement in Post #42:

Neil Mick wrote:

"That tears it...all Nike, Payless and Shoetowns in Mississippi ought to have to apply for licenses to sell deadly weapons!! "

Or his comment in Post #46:

Neil Mick wrote:
""Jesse, and Al??" What did they do...knock over a liquor store? What "damage?" "

But "tone" is hardly the worst aspect of his posts. He supports Hamas and Hezbollah in their efforts at genocide and starts threads like this to cover his own racism.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-18-2007, 06:32 PM   #53
Shane Mokry
Dojo: Mokurin Dojo
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Re: Jena 6

Neil,

Until you can figure out what state this all has taken place in...none of your replies will be taken seriously.

Shane
 
Old 10-18-2007, 06:53 PM   #54
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
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On people who take themselves too seriously

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
Neil,

Until you can figure out what state this all has taken place in...
...ooh...condescension!

Quote:
none of your replies will be taken seriously.

Shane
By you...I've no doubt. But, I don't need your "serious consideration." You've already come here with your own agenda...

Quote:
I will check for replies and maybe I can help shed some reality on some of the topics surrounding this case
And so, the idea that you would take an alternative view "seriously," when you're here to give us all a "reality"-check never entered my mind. You obviously have it all figured out.

Now, OK: I'll grant you that the MSM botched the reporting of the whole thing.

And, I'll even go so far as to acknowledge that Al/Jesse grandstanded for the crowd...as do many media and political types tend to do.

But, your "reality" ignores a lot of other factors surrounding this incident...the response from the fringe, the remarks by Walters, the significance of the noose symbol, and how it is being repeated. If it wasn't racist, what happened in Jena...it sure is now; because it's being picked up by the rightwing fringe types as a weird rallying point.

Reality has proven my point, effectively enough. The Jena 6 charges were reduced: and all but Mychal Bell are out of jail. The incident is now going through Congress (a little overkill, but the racist elements of this situation are plain enough that even CONGRESS is lifting its dinosauric head, to do something).

But,,,take me seriously? Methinks some here take THEMSELVES too seriously.

Personally, I'll take a cue from Mark, here...

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Huh? You mean I don't win all the time?
(And sometimes you have to laugh at yourself)
...chuckle at the foibles of my fellow aikidoists, and move on (not before offering a short laugh, at myself).

NEXT!

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-18-2007 at 07:03 PM.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 07:22 PM   #55
Shane Mokry
Dojo: Mokurin Dojo
Location: Louisiana
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Re: Jena 6

David,

As much as I disagree with Neil because I feel he is hopelessly misguided, he still has the right to his opinion.

I also think he called me a racist in denial...in so many words. He can think what he wishes...this is America.

I do agree with you however. After Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton repeated over and over phrases about nooses and shotguns, everyone lost sight of the real victim. These people strung together a bunch of unrelated events and now it is "Free the Jena six".

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are racists. If they were unable to continue distinguishing "African Americans" from just "Americans", they would have to go apply for a job at the local wal-mart.

At some point, and I hope it is soon, we should all see each other...and ourselves, as fellow countrymen...including Neil . This separation has to stop. It fans very old flames that should not be burning. We are all just "Americans".

Regards,
Shane
 
Old 10-18-2007, 07:45 PM   #56
David Orange
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
As much as I disagree with Neil because I feel he is hopelessly misguided, he still has the right to his opinion.
Yes, as do Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and David Duke--three of the biggest racists in America. Racist profiteers. Remember Jesse Jackson calling New York "Hymietown"? Remember how Shaprton referred to "bloodsucking Jews"? Can any good come of having those two in the country--much less in your own town?

What "damage" did they do?????

Precisely twice as much damage as having "one" David Duke in your town. They're racist "BUT" they're also "fighting for Justice"???? There is no justice in racism, no matter where it comes from.

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
I also think he called me a racist in denial...in so many words. He can think what he wishes...this is America.
Yes, he called you a racist.

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
There is no doubt in my mind that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are racists. If they were unable to continue distinguishing "African Americans" from just "Americans", they would have to go apply for a job at the local wal-mart.
But they wouldn't be hired even if the hiring manager were black.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-18-2007, 08:27 PM   #57
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
David,

As much as I disagree with Neil because I feel he is hopelessly misguided, he still has the right to his opinion.
Thanks for that.

Quote:
I also think he called me a racist in denial...in so many words. He can think what he wishes...this is America.
Pardon me for interrupting this conversation btw you and someone I have on ignore, Shane: but I did NOT call you a racist in denial. I apologize if you got this idea...my own fault. I've had this misunderstanding before.

But what I said, was that denial was an element of racism.

I also said that a part of your argument is denying of certain very clearly stated facts. But, to be clear...no: I don't think (based upon what you've wrote) that you're a racist. Sorry, again: If I gave that impression.

I think you're somebody who's pissed off at the way the media treated your neighborhood; and the way some people used an incident to grandstand.

Makes perfect sense to me. Under a different context, I might even feel the same.

Quote:
There is no doubt in my mind that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are racists. If they were unable to continue distinguishing "African Americans" from just "Americans", they would have to go apply for a job at the local wal-mart.
This statement utterly ignores history. Specifically, THEIR history.

Quote:
At some point, and I hope it is soon, we should all see each other...and ourselves, as fellow countrymen...including Neil .
Thanks again for that. It's so nice to be wanted.

...I'm feelin' a lotta love, on this thread.

Stop me...I think I'm gonna cry...

Quote:
This separation has to stop. It fans very old flames that should not be burning. We are all just "Americans".

Regards,
Shane
Hmm...a good sentiment. But, it assumes that I thought otherwise.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 10:29 PM   #58
Shane Mokry
Dojo: Mokurin Dojo
Location: Louisiana
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Re: Jena 6

Neil,

I haven't assumed anything about you except that you are a thinker.

Exactly what do you mean by "their history" that I am ignoring.

Shane
 
Old 10-18-2007, 10:50 PM   #59
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
Neil,

Exactly what do you mean by "their history" that I am ignoring.

Shane
"their history" = the history of Jesse Jackson's and Al Sharpton's, work, in the Civil Rights movement. For starters.

Of course they have a dog in this fight. It's what they do.

But, there are undercurrents going on here that are beyond the scope of this debate.

Thanks for your viewpoint, Shane...I'm outta here.

Hey, maybe we'll meet on the mat someday!
 
Old 10-19-2007, 08:40 PM   #60
Shane Mokry
Dojo: Mokurin Dojo
Location: Louisiana
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Re: Jena 6

Although I have not said all I have to say about this issue I, think will log off again for a few months. I usually do not have much time for internet discussions...this one really means something to me...

Thanks for your views and inputs...I learned volumes as always.

I hope we can all meet on the mat someday. Unlikely but there's always a chance....take care of yourselves.

Shane
 
Old 10-19-2007, 09:39 PM   #61
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
Although I have not said all I have to say about this issue I, think will log off again for a few months.
Your input has been interesting and valuable. It took some courage and you weathered the responses quite well.

Jackson and Sharpton both made a joke of their "history in the Civil Rights movement" with profound lies and racial slurs against white people and particularly Jews. They have as much credibility in the Jena situation as does David Duke.

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
I usually do not have much time for internet discussions...this one really means something to me...
I was eight years old when the riots happened in Birmingham. Even though we have had black mayors and majority-black city councils for the past 25 years or so, the riots and "racial injustice" are still the images people see when they hear of my city. So I have some inkling of how you feel about having your city painted as the center of the racist empire. Hope things get better down there in time. It takes plenty of that.

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
Thanks for your views and inputs...I learned volumes as always.
Thanks for your input.

Quote:
Shane Mokry wrote: View Post
I hope we can all meet on the mat someday. Unlikely but there's always a chance....take care of yourselves.
Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-22-2007, 05:11 AM   #62
Taliesin
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Re: Jena 6

Sorry just trying to catch up

Can someone clarify if these are the questions are still relevant to this issue.

1. Did the 6 committ a crime?

2. Was the prosecution disproportionatly harshly because of racist motivation?

3. Were perpertrators of equivalent offences not prosecuted or prosecuted disproportionately lightly because of their racial make up?

I'll take it the answer to question 1 is 'yes'

I'm now interested in whether the answers to 2 & 3 are either yes or no and why
 
Old 10-22-2007, 06:58 AM   #63
Tom Fish
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
Sorry just trying to catch up

Can someone clarify if these are the questions are still relevant to this issue.

1. Did the 6 committ a crime?

2. Was the prosecution disproportionatly harshly because of racist motivation?

3. Were perpertrators of equivalent offences not prosecuted or prosecuted disproportionately lightly because of their racial make up?

I'll take it the answer to question 1 is 'yes'

I'm now interested in whether the answers to 2 & 3 are either yes or no and why
Unfortunately, in response to question #2, the DA was also a school administration official as well, and made threatening comments to the student body that were taken out of context to make this a racial incident.
As for question #3, I think that the term "justice" is pretty ambiguous in American law. I think there is some ongoing prosecution still being attempted but it is completely unlikely that the resolution will satisfy anything.
Tom
 
Old 10-24-2007, 09:47 AM   #64
Mike Sigman
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Re: Jena 6

As in many cases, it's probably worthwhile to look at the facts and consider how many people emoted because the initial facts were wrong:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1024/p09s01-coop.html
 
Old 10-30-2007, 08:18 AM   #65
sutemaker17
 
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Re: Jena 6

Tom,
To answer question one I agree and believe a crime was committed. So...yes.

Question 2: Were they charged too harshly? You decide. Here are the Louisiana revised statutes. Also, keep in mind that a DA in this state has the power to charge you with anything he wants whether he has evidence or not. A DA is also shielded by law from civil lawsuits brought against him for alleged abuse of powers.

[PHP]27. Attempt; penalties; attempt on peace officer; enhanced penalties

A. Any person who, having a specific intent to commit a crime, does or omits an act for the purpose of and tending directly toward the accomplishing of his object is guilty of an attempt to commit the offense intended; and it shall be immaterial whether, under the circumstances, he would have actually accomplished his purpose.

B.(1) Mere preparation to commit a crime shall not be sufficient to constitute an attempt; but lying in wait with a dangerous weapon with the intent to commit a crime, or searching for the intended victim with a dangerous weapon with the intent to commit a crime, shall be sufficient to constitute an attempt to commit the offense intended.

(2) Further, the placing of any combustible or explosive substance in or near any structure, watercraft, movable, or forestland, with the specific intent eventually to set fire to or to damage by explosive substance such structure, watercraft, movable, or forestland, shall be sufficient to constitute an attempt to commit the crime of arson as defined in R.S. 14:51 through 53.

C. An attempt is a separate but lesser grade of the intended crime; and any person may be convicted of an attempt to commit a crime, although it appears on the trial that the crime intended or attempted was actually perpetrated by such person in pursuance of such attempt.

D. Whoever attempts to commit any crime shall be punished as follows:

(1)(a) If the offense so attempted is punishable by death or life imprisonment, he shall be imprisoned at hard labor for not less than ten nor more than fifty years without benefit of parole, probation, or suspension of sentence.

(b) If the offense so attempted is punishable by death or life imprisonment and is attempted against an individual who is a peace officer engaged in the performance of his lawful duty, he shall be imprisoned at hard labor for not less than twenty nor more than fifty years without benefit of parole, probation, or suspension of sentence.

(2) If the offense so attempted is theft or receiving stolen things, and is not punishable as a felony, he shall be fined not more than two hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both. If the offense so attempted is receiving stolen things, and is punishable as a felony, he shall be fined not more than two hundred dollars, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both. If the offense so attempted is theft, and is punishable as a felony, he shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both;

(3) In all other cases he shall be fined or imprisoned or both, in the same manner as for the offense attempted; such fine or imprisonment shall not exceed one-half of the largest fine, or one-half of the longest term of imprisonment prescribed for the offense so attempted, or both.

E. For the purposes of Subsection D of this Section, the term "peace officer" means any peace officer, as defined in R.S. 40:2402.

Amended by Acts 1970, No. 471, 1; Acts 1975, No. 132, 1; Acts 1989, No. 609, 1; Acts 1995, No. 988, 1; Acts 2003, No. 166, 1; Acts 2003, No. 745, 1.[/PHP]

[PHP]30.1. Second degree murder

A. Second degree murder is the killing of a human being:

(1) When the offender has a specific intent to kill or to inflict great bodily harm; or

(2)(a) When the offender is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of aggravated rape, forcible rape, aggravated arson, aggravated burglary, aggravated kidnapping, second degree kidnapping, aggravated escape, assault by drive-by shooting, armed robbery, first degree robbery, second degree robbery, simple robbery, cruelty to juveniles, second degree cruelty to juveniles, or terrorism, even though he has no intent to kill or to inflict great bodily harm.

(b) When the offender is engaged in the perpetration of cruelty to juveniles, even though he has no intent to kill or to inflict great bodily harm.

(3) When the offender unlawfully distributes or dispenses a controlled dangerous substance listed in Schedules I or II of the Uniform Controlled Dangerous Substances Law* which is the direct cause of the death of the recipient who ingested or consumed the controlled dangerous substance.

(4) When the offender unlawfully distributes or dispenses a controlled dangerous substance listed in Schedules I or II of the Uniform Controlled Dangerous Substances Law* to another who subsequently distributes or dispenses such controlled dangerous substance which is the direct cause of the death of the person who ingested or consumed the controlled dangerous substance.

B. Whoever commits the crime of second degree murder shall be punished by life imprisonment at hard labor without benefit of parole, probation, or suspension of sentence.

Added by Acts 1973, No. 111, 1. Amended by Acts 1975, No. 380, 1; Acts 1976, No. 657, 2; Acts 1977, No. 121, 1; Acts 1978, No. 796, 1; Acts 1979, No. 74, 1, eff. June 29, 1979; Acts 1987, No. 465, 1; Acts 1987, No. 653, 1; Acts 1993, No. 496, 1; Acts 1997, No. 563, 1; Acts 1997, No. 899, 1; Acts 2006, No. 53, 1.

*NOTE: R.S. 40:961 et seq.[/PHP]

[PHP]26. Criminal conspiracy

A. Criminal conspiracy is the agreement or combination of two or more persons for the specific purpose of committing any crime; provided that an agreement or combination to commit a crime shall not amount to a criminal conspiracy unless, in addition to such agreement or combination, one or more of such parties does an act in furtherance of the object of the agreement or combination.

If the intended basic crime has been consummated, the conspirators may be tried for either the conspiracy or the completed offense, and a conviction for one shall not bar prosecution for the other.

B. Whoever is a party to a criminal conspiracy to commit any crime shall be fined or imprisoned, or both, in the same manner as for the offense contemplated by the conspirators; provided, however, whoever is a party to a criminal conspiracy to commit a crime punishable by death or life imprisonment shall be imprisoned at hard labor for not more than thirty years.

C. Whoever is a party to a criminal conspiracy to commit any other crime shall be fined or imprisoned, or both, in the same manner as for the offense contemplated by the conspirators; but such fine or imprisonment shall not exceed one-half of the largest fine, or one-half the longest term of imprisonment prescribed for such offense, or both.

Amended by Acts 1977, No. 538, 1. [/PHP]

You know Tom, I wasn't there and did not witness the incident but from the information I have about it, these charges actually fit what allegedly happened. Were I the DA would I choose to "throw the book" at em'? That's hard for me to say.

I don't believe anyone else committed any offenses that have been considered, by Mr. Walters, to be equivalent to the one leading to these charges. However, it seems that every other incident leading up to this one involved one or more of the gentlemen now being referred to as the "six". Maybe he got tired of fooling around with em'. I could be wrong.

Anyway, the main point of this post is to let everyone who may not be familiar with La laws to get a look themselves. Hope this sheds a little more light. Oh BTW the Louisiana revised statutes can be found here: http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/toc.htm
 
Old 10-30-2007, 01:14 PM   #66
David Orange
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Location: Birmingham, AL
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
Can someone clarify if these are the questions are still relevant to this issue.

1. Did the 6 committ a crime?

2. Was the prosecution disproportionatly harshly because of racist motivation?

3. Were perpertrators of equivalent offences not prosecuted or prosecuted disproportionately lightly because of their racial make up?
David,

It looks like "the 6" have committed many crimes in that little area.

Was the prosecution disproportionately harsh because of racism???

Hard to say. If you knock a boy unconscious, then six people kick him in the head and body until someone drags them off the unconscious victim who cannot defend himself in any way....that sounds like intent to murder. You can kill a person with bare feet and hands. I don't think that wearing sneakers does much to diminish the deadliness of the attack. Seems to me, the victim was lucky someone was there to pull the attackers off him or he would now be dead.

The third question, as to "equivalent offences".....I don't even know where that comes from. I mean, I know a lot of people have tossed it back and forth, but I haven't heard of any offences in this case that even come close to six people (large athletes) physically beating a single, unconscious victim on the ground. Do you?

Some people have compared the display of the nooses on the tree as "equivalent" to the beating, but who really believes that?

If a beating by six people against one boy is equivalent to the display of the nooses, then what if, instead of hanging nooses, the original offenders had beaten one of "the six"? Would "the 6" then have to kill someone to be equivalent? To me, the "equivalence" argument was a Sharptonism from the beginning.

Hope all is well on your side.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-30-2007, 01:17 PM   #67
David Orange
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Re: Jena 6

Jason, are you related to Shane?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-30-2007, 01:23 PM   #68
Michael Douglas
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
The first punch knocked Barker out and he was kicked several times in the head.
Attempted maiming, happens all the time.
Bad people do that, good people do not.
Nothing about race/colour/class/academics.
 
Old 10-30-2007, 01:39 PM   #69
sutemaker17
 
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Re: Jena 6

David,
I most certainly am related to Shane. We are identical twins.
Regards,
Jason Mokry
 
Old 10-30-2007, 07:09 PM   #70
David Orange
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
Jason Mokry wrote: View Post
David,
I most certainly am related to Shane. We are identical twins.
Regards,
Jason Mokry
I thought you guys looked a lot alike...

Hope your town gets happy real soon.

Best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-31-2007, 08:03 AM   #71
Taliesin
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Re: Jena 6

David Orange

I do believe that it is my questions 2 & 3

2. Was the prosecution disproportionatly harsh because of racist motivation?

3. Were perpertrators of equivalent offences not prosecuted or prosecuted disproportionately lightly because of their racial make up?

That are the core of the issue. It is difficult to see how it is possible to give different answers to these two questions, but you seem to be missing my point

For those who wish to argue that this is a case of racially motivated prosecution - the onus must be on them to demonstrate an equivalent offence did occur and was either not prosecuted or was prosecuted disproportionately lightly. Without that evidence then all allegations fail the 'he who asserts must prove' test. And this whole matter is all 'sound and fury signifying nothing'

Equivalence is an element that must be considered because treating 'A' different to 'B' for materialy the same sort of actions.

In this case is there any record of white student or students physically attacking a black student being reckless as to whether they cause what we on this side of the pond call Grievous Bodily Harm or death and were either not prosecuted or charged with a lesser offence
 
Old 10-31-2007, 08:19 AM   #72
David Orange
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
2. Was the prosecution disproportionatly harsh because of racist motivation?
I think what we have here is that a lot of people want to use this case to attack the racist phenomenon we do frequently see in the American justice system. Many blacks are railroaded in America, if you know what I mean--shoved into a cell when they aren't really guilty, or blowing up the level of what they did to "justify" a harsher term than they really earned. Unfortunately, this particular case seems not to deserve to be the rallying point against that. I think if any special treatment was given in this case, it was that Mychal Bell (?) was let go so many times before without rightfully harsh treatment. And that was not racially motivated, but sports motivated. I think the judge here was finally fed up with Bell's acting like no one could touch him, no matter what he did.

So I'd have to say, no, the prosecution was not unjustifiably harsh because of race.

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
3. Were perpertrators of equivalent offences not prosecuted or prosecuted disproportionately lightly because of their racial make up?

For those who wish to argue that this is a case of racially motivated prosecution - the onus must be on them to demonstrate an equivalent offence did occur and was either not prosecuted or was prosecuted disproportionately lightly. Without that evidence then all allegations fail the 'he who asserts must prove' test. And this whole matter is all 'sound and fury signifying nothing'...In this case is there any record of white student or students physically attacking a black student being reckless as to whether they cause what we on this side of the pond call Grievous Bodily Harm or death and were either not prosecuted or charged with a lesser offence
And I have to say, I don't think so. My previous response wasn't so much to you as to those who are trying to make this case into an example of the whole American justice system by crying equivalence. If a mass beating is "equivalent" to the display of nooses, then what would be equivalent to a mass beating?

Those who would like to correct the racial bias in American justice would do well not to focus on cases like this or OJ Simpson's. There are plenty of black people in prisons who really don't deserve to be there and who are there because of racist prosecutors. As I cited earlier in Alabama, our Attorney General insists that a man who was involved in a double murder should die by lethal injection even though he was not the one who killed the people and the one who did kill them will not be executed.

He's letting the shooter live, but executing the guy who didn't know the shooter was going to kill the victims.

How is that justice?

It's good-old American, spit-in-your-eye, someone has to die justice. It's a lawyer-politician who will execute his way to the governor's office if he can.

Those are the kinds of cases that should get national attention--not the Mychal Bells and OJs.

But whatever is done, we do NOT need Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton sticking their money-sniffers in on it.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-31-2007, 11:30 AM   #73
Taliesin
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Re: Jena 6

Thanks for your comment. I appreciate that there may be a lot of racially motivated prosecutions occurring but to claim so without anything solid to back it up - undermines any attempt to tackle the problem and indeed undermines it.

Likewise OJ - needed to be found not-guilty because the police were caught, 'guilding the lily' (An old fashioned British phrase for framing someone they believed to be guilty)
 
Old 10-31-2007, 11:36 AM   #74
Taliesin
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Re: Jena 6

PS

Letting the shooter live whilst executing the person who was with him isn't - has reflections over here in the Craig-Bently Case (Dramatised in the film 'Let him have it'). In this 17 year old Christopher Craig was accompaned by Dereck Bently on a burglary when they were found by the police. Craig was armed. The Officer asked for the gun asnd Bently said 'Let him have it. Chris'. - Craig was a minor and so not executed, Bently was an adult and an accomplice ont he basis of 'joint enterprose' - Bently was hanged. (It is a very famous British Case)
 
Old 10-31-2007, 11:54 AM   #75
Mike Sigman
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Re: Jena 6

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
Likewise OJ - needed to be found not-guilty
What did OJ's wife and her boyfriend deserve, then? Actually, as Johnny Cochran, OJ's lawyer, observed, if he could just get a couple of blacks on the jury (and he did), he could get OJ off. It happened. Was that "racist"? I'm never sure what the term "racist" means, since different people seem to imply different meanings to it, depending on their whim. But usually "racist" tends to indicate that someone has a one-sided view of "equality" and "responsibility". I'm all for equal treatment of everyone, depending upon the acceptable social standards of course, but I want that applied equally and I think everyone should then be responsible for their own decisions after that.

For instance, if someone decides to drop out of school and become a street-magician, I don't think that the rest of society should be held responsible for that person's well-being and retirement planning. At sometime someone is either "equal" or they're "not equal"... it can't be both. Apply that to everyone and let the chips fall where they may.

One of my greatest enjoyments is watching the number of Asian-Americans who get into colleges, etc., proportionately, on the west coast. If they worked for it, they deserve it. When you start taking those college placements away from the people who worked hardest for it (or were most qualified), then you take away the whole reason for any group(s) of people to even bother to work for things. And society begins to crumble. US society has crumbled.... if you don't believe it, look at the inner cities of every major metropolitan city in the US. Oops... was that a "racist" remark?

My 2 cents.

Mike Sigman
 

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