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Old 10-15-2007, 05:52 AM   #351
DonMagee
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
Maybe. Or maybe it's the other way -- that sparring/freestyle training is designed to explore an art's techniques in the sort of random format, so you have to start with what the art does. Consequently, since Aikido "as it is practiced" doesn't do kickboxing and doesn't (generally) roll around on the ground but appears to be sandwiched in between those two ranges, kickboxing and ground fighting just don't fit for Aikido. Yes, one can explore how to apply Aikido against attacks from kickboxing and grappling, but IMO that requires starting with a grounding in the princples of Aiki, timing, and so forth, which one can only get from having practiced it for years; and then knowing those rules, one can as oneself, "Ok, so how does that apply when a attack is driven less by charging and more by a short sharp body rotation?"

Start with the art, learn what it does, where that type of training gets you, and work from there. You want to do the reverse, fine, that reminds me of that old chestnut about square pegs and round holes.
Honestly, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. If you are saying you need to learn the arts techniques before sparing, then I agree with you. Other then that, I'm not sure what you are saying.

Sorry.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:24 AM   #352
CNYMike
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Honestly, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. If you are saying you need to learn the arts techniques before sparing, then I agree with you. Other then that, I'm not sure what you are saying.

Sorry.
And I don't know how I could have been any clearer. What threw you?
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Old 10-15-2007, 12:36 PM   #353
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
...Why should those who enjoy Aikido, but also love to train and mix Aikdio with other arts have to labor in exhaustion with explanations of why we train that way. We share other methods of training without the traditionalist attacking.

Again no need to apologize.
I'm not so sure that's what Don was replying to in the post of his you responded to. I'm pretty sure the only thing he was addressing here was the distinction between the new phenominon of MMA and the idea of mixing martial arts.
I think there are purists in every style of martial art. Some are dojo purists who don't want to train in any other dojo than their own; more are style purists who feel theirs is superior to some degree. Personally, I can't think of a time I've seen an Aikidoka say one couldn't mix their training...though granted I'm not always paying much attention. I've heard people say they don't think they need to, and I agree that's a dangerous mentality. Any perspective is improved when it comes from more than one point of reference...that's how our 2-D eyes form a 3-D image allowing us to see depth much better and the same is true for martial training.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-15-2007, 12:57 PM   #354
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

I have a possibly daft idea here, let me just bounce it around and we'll see where it goes. I think we're too busy trying to use Aiki as a tactical principle "How do I defeat x using Aikido" or "How do I over come x using Aikido" might be a better way of putting it.
I think (emphasis on think) we should be using Aiki as a strategic principle "Do I need to defeat x or do I just need to be in one piece at the end of the encounter?"

The former, I feel, is a competition/sport based mindset. You have turned up for a fight and you must win it. The second, I feel, is a martial mindset. You are in trouble, you must get out of it.

If I during the course of my day come across a boxer that wants to beat me up it makes far more sence for me to keep my mai-ai and force him to come across it, onto my atemi and then technique than it does to stand in his mai-ai and risk getting punched. Obviously there are exceptions to this, I might literally be boxed into a corner etc, but overall I've been taught how to move, been taught to keep mai-ai, in short, I know how to make it difficult for someone to hit me. I am, reletively speaking, safe, let him throw punches and exhaust himself. Let him goof up, come storming at me and get thrown.

Just a thought.
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Old 10-15-2007, 01:36 PM   #355
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
The concepts of Aikido have been obscured beyond belief. The application of Budo have been made to appear less a part of the art in recent decades. Stanley Pranin wrote an interesting article,
"Is O-Sensei Really the Father of Modern Aikido?"

http://www.aikido-iwama.ru/text1_en.html
Conceptually? I disagree. i think the concepts are there just fine for the most part. Practicality? Can't say for sure, but fairly certain that varies from school to school; person to person.
I think the essence of what OSensei taught is still present in Aikido today. Of course, I have no way of knowing for sure because I never trained with OSensei, but if I had to make an educated guess, that would be it. I've done a highly Ki-society oriented style and Shodokan/Tomiki style; both felt different from each other, but both were very much the same. One uses competition; the other doesn't; both seem pretty potent to me. Both seem to have involved a high level of feeling the way through the technique and it's there that I think the real learning takes place. When you can experience having people find and exploit openings, you find out how to not create them. The better your training partner, the more you tend to learn. The thing i really like about aikido training, per my own experiences anyway, is exactly that ability to begin from a powerful-feeling posture, move with that same kind of feeling, and finish with it, ready to move again at a moment's notice. Mix that with continually practicing with different partners who are doing the same thing and it's awesome. Granted, I can see how there might be different levels of awareness/proficiency; different areas of focus, etc. I agree there must be some who simply don't get it, or aren't looking as much for the ability to physically overcome another person, but I think "Aikido" is perfectly oriented for teaching someone how to maneuver quickly, with power.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-15-2007, 06:07 PM   #356
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Conceptually? I disagree. i think the concepts are there just fine for the most part. Practicality? Can't say for sure, but fairly certain that varies from school to school; person to person.
I think the essence of what OSensei taught is still present in Aikido today. Of course, I have no way of knowing for sure because I never trained with OSensei, but if I had to make an educated guess, that would be it. I've done a highly Ki-society oriented style and Shodokan/Tomiki style; both felt different from each other, but both were very much the same. One uses competition; the other doesn't; both seem pretty potent to me. Both seem to have involved a high level of feeling the way through the technique and it's there that I think the real learning takes place. When you can experience having people find and exploit openings, you find out how to not create them. The better your training partner, the more you tend to learn. The thing i really like about aikido training, per my own experiences anyway, is exactly that ability to begin from a powerful-feeling posture, move with that same kind of feeling, and finish with it, ready to move again at a moment's notice. Mix that with continually practicing with different partners who are doing the same thing and it's awesome. Granted, I can see how there might be different levels of awareness/proficiency; different areas of focus, etc. I agree there must be some who simply don't get it, or aren't looking as much for the ability to physically overcome another person, but I think "Aikido" is perfectly oriented for teaching someone how to maneuver quickly, with power.
I strongly suggest you read the article thoroughly. Stanley Pranin stated, "spread of aikido following the war taking place under the direct tutelage of the founder is fundamentally in error. Tohei and the present Doshu deserve the lion's share of the credit, not the founder. It means further that O-Sensei Morihei Ueshiba was not seriously involved in the instruction or administration of aikido in the postwar years. He was already long retired and very focused on his personal training, spiritual development, travel and social activities. Also, it should be noted that, despite his stereotyped image as a gentle, kind old man, O-Sensei was also the possessor of piercing eyes and a heroic temper. His presence was not always sought at the Hombu Dojo due to his critical comments and frequent outbursts. This is the truth of the matter as attested to by numerous first-hand witnesses."

Aikido as it is taught today in most instances, is not directly from the founder.

One one if his direct students, Hiroshi Isoyama stated, "As you know, O-Sensei never wrote much about aikido in books, although some of this techniques are recorded in Budo. Sometimes I've wondered why he didn't write more about aikido, but on the other hand, I think I might understand: his thinking gradually evolved, and he may have felt that anything he wrote in his younger years would potentially end up being contradictory to his thinking later on. The same is true of his techniques: if he had said anything definitive about them at any point, he might have ended up contradicting himself later on as he evolved.

Another difficulty is that different people have tended to interpret O-Sensei's words in different ways, even though he may have actually said the same thing to all of them. People then end up expressing their own interpretation as if they had absorbed all of what he meant, leading in turn to small variances and eventually to misunderstandings.

When O-Sensei taught he never gave any particularly detailed explanations."
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Old 10-16-2007, 05:31 AM   #357
Stefan Stenudd
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Improving

I had a look at the videos on the skinnymonkey YouTube account. The third aiki-boxing shows significant improvement from the first one - both the aiki and the boxing side of it
Here it is, if you didn't already know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

It is very difficult to compare martial arts, mainly because of their rules differing so much, and also because one tends to adapt to one of the two arts when trying them out together.
For example, in the first video, I got the impression that the aiki-guy moved more like in boxing than in aikido - stepping sideways instead of forward. In the third video, especially the first half of it, the aiki-guy moves more like in aikido. Irimi steps.

Not that I imagine to be that accomplished at it, but I guess that one needs to stick to aiki steps and principles, and go for the body more than those quick boxer arms. I would probably try iriminage nine out of ten times.
A wrist technique probably needs to be applied from a clinch distance, not at arms length. You go in close, apply a wrist grip, and then step out for the throw or pinning.

Anyway, it is clear that you guys experimenting with it have great fun, and that you improve. I am curious as to what it will look like in a year or so.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 10-16-2007, 07:05 AM   #358
skinnymonkey
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Thanks Stefan! I'm glad you liked it. I'm curious what it will look like in a year or so as well! Your suggestions are very good. We'll try to keep them in mind next time we do this. The 3rd experiment felt a lot better from the Aiki side (for me). We haven't been catching as much flack for the boxing on the 3rd one, so I guess that has improved too! Either way, it keeps us on our toes and we are having a lot of fun with it, so we'll keep on moving forward.

Thanks again for your input.

Jeff D.
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Old 10-16-2007, 02:05 PM   #359
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I strongly suggest you read the article thoroughly. Stanley Pranin stated, "...Tohei and the present Doshu deserve the lion's share of the credit, not the founder."
Quote:
Another difficulty is that different people have tended to interpret O-Sensei's words in different ways, even though he may have actually said the same thing to all of them. People then end up expressing their own interpretation as if they had absorbed all of what he meant, leading in turn to small variances and eventually to misunderstandings.

When O-Sensei taught he never gave any particularly detailed explanations."
I didn't say this wasn't the case. OSensei taught a lot of people, but it was the Shihan who went out around the world and popularized it. I get that. Their students, and so on and so forth will continue to do it too. I believe the principles OSensei taught are alive and well is all I was trying to say. I can't speak for most of Aikido because I've not come even close to experiencing it.
I don't doubt there are mistakes of understanding which have occured. I imagine it a bit like the parable of the 3 blind men and the elephant: all three have very different ideas of what the elephant feels like. In a sense, all three are wrong about what the elephant "really" looks like. As it relates to Aikido, still, through experiencing other methods (whether from different schools, styles or people), one can begin to get a pretty good idea of what's strong about each.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-16-2007, 02:18 PM   #360
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote: View Post
Thanks Stefan! I'm glad you liked it. I'm curious what it will look like in a year or so as well! Your suggestions are very good. We'll try to keep them in mind next time we do this. The 3rd experiment felt a lot better from the Aiki side (for me). We haven't been catching as much flack for the boxing on the 3rd one, so I guess that has improved too! Either way, it keeps us on our toes and we are having a lot of fun with it, so we'll keep on moving forward.

Thanks again for your input.

Jeff D.
I'd like to point out that in no way are any of my posts saying what you are doing is a bad thing. I just was re-reading the thread and was afraid I might be coming off that way. I think what you are doing is a good idea.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-16-2007, 02:56 PM   #361
skinnymonkey
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Thanks Don... I didn't take it that way so no problems here.

I always appreciate a spirited debate as long as I can learn something from it.

Jeff D.
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Old 10-17-2007, 06:32 AM   #362
Bob King
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

[quote=Larry Camejo;191622]Hi Robert,

I daresay attempting entries from other arts will only help one in developing tsukuri that will be best suited to execute waza from those arts, but will not assist one in developing the Aikido responses to that scenario.

The challenge is to improve my own Aiki waza to a place where it works just as well as a well trained approach from any other method. But to do this I need to fully understand and be able to execute those elements that make up sound, effective Aiki waza.

I have found that traditional Tai Sabaki (especially the way it's done in Shodokan) is quite effective at getting one into position to execute Aiki waza in the Boxing situation. The problem however does not lie in the physical response but the mental.

Btw, do you have a copy of "Aikido: Tradition and the Competitive Edge" by F. Shishida and T. Nariyama?

Larry,

Yep, have the book and have read it once or twice, need to read it again.

I agree that Shodokan taisabaki is effective, as it is not much different in footwork than basic boxing is. I'm not sure that all styles taisabaki is the same, what little I have seen of other styles seems too big, too circular to respond well to sharp blows (jabs and crosses). And taisabaki as Shodokand and Nariyama teaches it is not always that effective, the famous story (in Ohio at least it's famous) of Nariyama getting shot in the chest six times with a burning cotton wad proved that without a doubt. He was quick to admit that getting out of the way of a boken is quite different than a cotton wad shot from a .38.

As to my goals from this excercise, they are multiple, but mostly to become a more effective combatant and improve the use of my Shodokan techniques: "to fully understand and be able to execute those elements that make up sound, effective Aiki waza". Well put summary.

When I referenced other entries I was not really thinking of doing DLTs, more like using hubud/lubud or bagua and tai chi redirections (pardon my misspelling for anyone who is a kali practioner) to close the gap and make faster initial contact and entry possible. Once, as you state, we go to the ground it isn't shodokan anymore, it's ground grappling.

Thanks for your insight and comments. Oh, and welcome to the JAA/USA, I see you are applying for membership. That is great, welcome aboard!
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Old 10-17-2007, 07:56 AM   #363
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Robert King wrote: View Post
And taisabaki as Shodokand and Nariyama teaches it is not always that effective, the famous story (in Ohio at least it's famous) of Nariyama getting shot in the chest six times with a burning cotton wad proved that without a doubt. He was quick to admit that getting out of the way of a boken is quite different than a cotton wad shot from a .38.
Now that is quite an interesting story. Would love to hear the details via PM. Being a gun nut myself I'd like to know the range, conditions etc. at which this was attempted. I've never heard that story but it makes perfect sense to me. The beauty of using a cotton wad is that mentally you WILL aim to hit. Even though Ueshiba M. dodged the six police gunmen firing live rounds during his challenge there is another story where he faced a friend of a young Gozo Shioda, a rifleman and he knew even before a shot was made that he could not escape that man's bullet. This guy would have shot to kill also.

This brings an important point to your testing - mindset. This is partially why it is difficult to balance safety with reality. The real attack comes with certain psychological elements that are impossible to replicate in a "test" environment. This of course can make the test a lot more difficult or easy depending on the test. Recently we had the Kendo club go at us with Shinai (we put on the Men to protect our noggins) what we quickly found out was that if the Kendoka used bokken or tried a more powerful stroke with the Shinai (i.e. in an attempt to really hurt the attacker) we would be able to avoid and execute waza on most occasions. However, after realising what was happening they modified their strikes by pulling it short at the last second or by doing quick snap strokes (not full powered cuts). The change in mindset resulted in it being more difficult to avoid and we got hit most times, so the experience was most enlightening. The reality was however that even if they did hit us it would probably not end the fight at that point and we'd be inside where they had no defence.

Bringing this back to Aiki-Boxing - the gloves on the Boxer would enable him to be a bit more free with his striking power (this is good from an Aiki perspective), but due to the size of the gloves the potential for certain Aiki waza (esp. kansetsu waza) is reduced. We see this in the videos as the more effective waza tend to be those going for the body and not the limbs. You can move to smaller gloves, but the safety factor diminishes and your partner may hold back more, making things more difficult. As I indicated in an earlier post, you also saw how putting on gloves as the Aikidoka also modified your movements, which was as a result in your changed mindset now that you had gloves and could strike in a different manner.

My own experience in this sort of training says that there may be some benefit in presenting a clear, easy target to your opponent (lead his mind) so that he dedicates an attack and then remove the target at the last instant as you enter. I use this in tanto randori and it never fails as long as I am relaxed enough to move efficiently and at the right time. Also, from using this in sparring against Kendo, Judo and Jujutsu it also worked, but one has to be willing to almost taste the strike so that when you do move at the last instant there is no possibility of recovery for the Boxer.

Quote:
Robert King wrote: View Post
Thanks for your insight and comments. Oh, and welcome to the JAA/USA, I see you are applying for membership. That is great, welcome aboard!
Lol. Wow it doesn't take long for ones business to get out does it? Thanks, I hope we can do the organization justice.

Regards.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 10-17-2007, 08:12 AM   #364
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

I would recommend a glove like
http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=22614 or http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=22292

Not much noticeable difference from the impact of a boxing glove, but a lot smaller footprint, and it's possible to control the hand better.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:40 PM   #365
Bob King
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Wink Re: Aiki-Boxing

[quote=Larry Camejo;191819]"Now that is quite an interesting story. Would love to hear the details via PM. "

I'll send that on a PM later! It is very good story.

"However, after realising what was happening they modified their strikes by pulling it short at the last second or by doing quick snap strokes (not full powered cuts). The change in mindset resulted in it being more difficult to avoid and we got hit most times, so the experience was most enlightening. The reality was however that even if they did hit us it would probably not end the fight at that point and we'd be inside where they had no defence."

I agree whoeheratedly mind set is all important. When there is no "real" danger (often seen in tanto randori matches) we react totally differntly thatn when we percieve the attack as "real" and react from the superconcious/instantaneous part of our mind instead of the thinking side if that makse sense. Wish I had better words for that concept.

"My own experience in this sort of training says that there may be some benefit in presenting a clear, easy target to your opponent (lead his mind) so that he dedicates an attack and then remove the target at the last instant as you enter."

Another good point and it atkes great deal of centering to be able to present that target, good goals to work on. Domo arigato!

"Lol. Wow it doesn't take long for ones business to get out does it? Thanks, I hope we can do the organization justice."

I'm sure you will do us justice, Larry, it's great to have you joining. We have been contemplating for a while about how to make it a Pan-American organization (instead of just USA) since we have associated clubs in Brazil already as well. And as to knowing your business, it helps that I'm on the board. Got that inside track!
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:42 PM   #366
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I would recommend a glove like
http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=22614 or http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=22292

Not much noticeable difference from the impact of a boxing glove, but a lot smaller footprint, and it's possible to control the hand better.
Thanks Don, those do look very applicable. Need to put them on this year's Christmas list.
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