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Old 10-08-2007, 08:55 AM   #51
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
If the officers, in their best efforts to catch a wanted person sought to determine if you were or were not that person, then that is a VERY SMALL price to pay to live in safe society.
Unfortunately, the officers SHOULD have been looking for a young hispanic male with long straight hair. Instead, the people searched when they couldn't find said hispanic male were all african american, including an elderly couple who were not in good health. 50 swat officers mobilized to stop and search a train...but when they came up empty handed, they went to the dark side of profiling...grab everyone black on the train and harrass them. Sucks doesn't it? Problem is, if you aren't black or hispanic you wouldn't know about it.

Quote:
The incident that you were referring to had almost nothing to do with profiling and more to do with the situation and the people involved in the situation.
Sorry, but almost doesn't cut it for me, since I am likely to be at the end of one of those guns. Almost could get me killed. For nothing. Not good enough.

Quote:
When we analyze information, we "discriminate" between meaningful and non-meaningful information. What else is new! I love how people who are so interested in being politically correct that they simply lose contact with common sense.
What is new is when the State then applies what would be normal common sense across too wide a sample, and takes actions that result in the deaths and false imprisonment of WAY too many people who were innocent.

Frankly, I have NO interest WHATSOEVER in being politcally correct. I think this is a strawman arguement thrown in to make people feel badly about the fact that they speak out against injustice. And I find it insulting.

Quote:
We have become accustomed to thinking of freedom as devoid of our own personal responsibility; instead we focus in on an escapist version of "freedom".
I have no interest in freedom without personal responsibility. But personal responsibility applies to EVERYONE. Elected officials, public employees included. This, of course, has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand...it is another strawman.

Quote:
There are no easy answers.
Here we absolutely agree.
Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 10-08-2007 at 09:00 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-08-2007, 11:27 AM   #52
Marc Abrams
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Talking Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Ron:

You and I agree more than we disagree. If the "state officials" do the profiling correctly and STICK TO IT, then incidents like that would be at a minimum (we must always account for Murphy, human error, people who should not be allowed to wear uniforms, etc...).

To state that people would not know what profiling was like unless they were black or hispanic is simply insulting and reverse discrimination. We can discuss this at great length if you wish, but I think that it is suffice to say that being singled out is not comfortable to begin with. Less so when it is done out of error, ignorance, hatred, etc...

As to the incident with the "40 shots" that you chose not to look at from other perspectives, please shoot me (so to speak ) a private message and I would be more than happy to explain many of the facts and the underlying problems surrounding the facts).

We absolutely agree that the State has overdone it (in my view, the executive branch has blatantly violated our laws). Beyond that, I agree with the other posters about the abuses that can occur at customs. Having done my doctorate in San Diego (Many Years Ago) I have a legion of stories regarding back and forth to Mexico.

I disagree with you regarding your assertion regarding your strawman assertion. Legitimate profiling has had to be stopped because it was not politically correct to single out a particular age group and ethnicity (along with some other variables). The analysis of the information was not based upon preconceived biases, the results spoke for themselves. The lack of being able to continue that effective course of investigation has significantly hampered cutting down on drugs being driven up the eastern corridor of the US.

Personal responsibility with freedom is essential. Many people within certain communities REFUSE to accept personal responsibility for what they can do to make their communities safer and better to live in. Instead, the police are insulted, attacked, ignored, and not helped to do their job. Those very same people are the ones to complain when the police do their job in a professional manner. People cannot have it both ways.

I am for living in a safe community that respects the rights of all of it's law-abiding citizens. I take my responsibility to help make my community safer seriously. I help in many ways and donate time and money in other ways. It is a small thanks for living in this country.

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-08-2007, 12:34 PM   #53
Anne Fournier
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

I am quite puzzled by the way this thread has evolved. It seems to me that the first case at hand had much to do with a specific aspect of immigration law that the Americano-japanese couple seemed to ignore. Regardless of the fact that this law is 'fair' or not, it is rather simple : either you don't want to immigrate, and hence should have all the proofs that you have no willing to do so (this applies to all foreigners and includes most importantely round-trip tickets and a clear declaration 'I don't want to immigrate' to the officer), or you want to immigrate, and as a 'mixed' couple married abroad, the foreign spouse should have asked for the green card OUTSIDE of the US. This law is very strict, and has to do with the fact that your marriage abroad has to get verified. I don't understand why this couple thought they could just get by without following the requirements.
Being a French citizen married to an American, I found myself several times in the situation of the couple described in the letter and I must confess I am baffled by the fact that they didn't take the time before coming to the US to check about the requirements for a foreign spouse to settle in the US.
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:14 PM   #54
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Hi Anne...I think it is because (as they stated) they weren't at the stage where they were ready to do that. It seemed to me they were clear they weren't trying to get her to emmigrate (right one? I always mix those up) at that point.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:32 PM   #55
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Hi Marc,

Sorry, but not interested in debating the Amadu Dialo case again. Made up my mind on that already, and considered everything I want to about the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

Not interested in debating anything really...you are of course welcome to your opinion. I just think that to blame the people in the neighborhoods (who surely do own their own portion of responsibility for the situation) when they are often the least able to do anything is weird.

On one hand: educated politicians, social workers, the state, the fed. government, people with enough money to fly loads of cocaine into the country, etc.

On the other hand: people who have generations of poverty and social ills behind them.

Gee....who do YOU think is going to be better prepared to shoulder some of this work???

Anyhoo...these discussions never really get anywhere.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 10-08-2007, 02:21 PM   #56
Fred Little
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Ron:

As to the incident with the "40 shots" that you chose not to look at from other perspectives, please shoot me (so to speak ) a private message and I would be more than happy to explain many of the facts and the underlying problems surrounding the facts).
The single most important fact about the Diallo case is that the officers who shot Diallo were under the command of Chief Bruce Smolka, an infamously brutal NYPD officer who resigned in January of this year under a legal cloud and now works for Revlon. Let's hope that the gig includes a free makeover:



Best,

FL
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Old 10-08-2007, 02:50 PM   #57
Anne Fournier
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Hi Ron -

i understand that - I am just quite astonished by the fact that although any foreigner at the immigration border is asked to show a certain number of documents, this couple had never considered that yes, of course, it also applies to the japanese woman, married or not to an American citizen. It is also a quite common piece of knowledge amongst foreigners who cross the American border (and a piece of information available on any immigration-related website) that any ambiguous answer to the question "do you intend to immigrate" makes you suspicious to the point where the immigration officer is legally entitled to prevent you from entering the territory. "Not being sure about your future plans" is NOT an appropriate answer for the immigration officer. If you are married, you are twice as supicious (as any official American website about immigration states forcefully). Hence the deportation, which quite frankly was a mere implementation of the law, and not some overzealous manifestation of an officer. Yes,they could have treated them better and be more considerate, but the letter of their official instructions didn't force them to.
My point here is not to be on the side of "authority" or not to show empathy for this couple - I just find this case way less scandalous than so many others that happen everyday at the border. Man, if the thousands of foreigners daily at the border were behaving like them ("oh, yes, I don't have a return ticket although I plan not to stay in the States"; or "I do not know at this stage of my life whether I want to stay here or not", or "I have an appointment at the bureau of immigration but that's just for fun, as i don't plan to immigrate"), there would be massive deportations of an unprecedented scale. Thank God, most foreigners are clever than that.
I guess I feel sorry for the Japanese wife who obviously relied on her husband, although he, being American, was not quite clear about the refined art of speaking to an American immigration officer. However, I have the feeling we should keep our forces to discuss real cases of unfairness and about real problems that immigrants in difficult situation have to face. I think if you read this story to any immigrant, they will just tell you frankly that this couple behaved in such a naive way than even a savy six-year old would know better.

OK- maybe my tone is more polemical than I actually mean it. Yes, it does suck for them, and yes any such situation is a real trauma for the person who lives it. Rereading the story, I also clearly realize that she was unfairly treated because of her lack of understanding of English which prevented her to clearly present her case.

Hope I didn't hurt any feeling on this issue,
Anne.
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Old 10-08-2007, 04:17 PM   #58
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

I understand what you are saying, my fiance has been around the block on this one. I hope the couple works it out over time.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 10-09-2007, 08:13 AM   #59
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
I think I already gave those details, but just in case: we were driving from Dallas to New Orleans. They stopped our car. That's all. No speed up. No "messing with Texas". No nothing. Six cops (three cars) hands in holsters.
Sorry, but that is not the whole story. Night time? Day time? Driving in an area known for drug dealing? (I once was stopped in a city where I lived many yrs ago because I was driving in an area where I shouldn't have been - i.e., known for people driving into to buy drugs - I had not known this, but simply got lost & was trying to get back to highway after taking the wrong off ramp). Highway driving? Improper lane change? So, you are saying that while driving at the speed limit, what 35 or 65?, some cop saw that you were a 'spaniard' & had an 'irishman' in your car & stopped you? Don't think so.
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Old 10-09-2007, 08:25 AM   #60
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Michael Ricca wrote: View Post
...
I personally, am often embarrassed by the way I see international travelers treated while passing through US customs and immigration. The level of confrontation and negativity is so high compared to other places I have been.....
Works both ways; once, a colleague was brought into the 'back room' & interrogated - among the questions asked, why wasn't she married? Another was told to go through a strip search or be put put on a return flight right then. She took the flight. And where did this take place? Canada! Canada - the country where terrorists have no problem getting into & through to the US, but apparently they are very wary of American tourists.
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Old 10-09-2007, 02:50 PM   #61
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Sorry, but that is not the whole story. Night time? Day time? Driving in an area known for drug dealing? (I once was stopped in a city where I lived many yrs ago because I was driving in an area where I shouldn't have been - i.e., known for people driving into to buy drugs - I had not known this, but simply got lost & was trying to get back to highway after taking the wrong off ramp). Highway driving? Improper lane change? So, you are saying that while driving at the speed limit, what 35 or 65?, some cop saw that you were a 'spaniard' & had an 'irishman' in your car & stopped you? Don't think so.
Know what? I don't have any idea if the area was known for drug dealing. I'm from Spain, live in Spain, travel the world because of my job, don't know the drug-dealing-factor of every and all the places where I put my feet (of wheels) on. I repeat that it was a highway, so an improbable choice for drug dealing. And yes, it was evening. No, no improper lane change. No, no driving at the speed limit, but under. It that was the case I would have stated it. As I say, no nothing, JUST driving.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Canada! Canada - the country where terrorists have no problem getting into & through to the US, but apparently they are very wary of American tourists.
Oh my! Your prose is becoming stubborn and insolent. He could have said "The States! The States - the country that invades countries to control the oil and/or gas, and makes wars to revitalize its economy, apparently very wary of all not like them" but he didn't.

Please...
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Old 10-09-2007, 04:17 PM   #62
Neil Mick
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Oh my! Your prose is becoming stubborn and insolent.
I'm not quite sure what you expect from John, Alejandro: when he makes statements like

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
I wholeheartedly say that the law enforcement officials did not stop/question you because you were a 'spaniard' or that your friend was an 'irishman'.
Judging from this statement, according to John, there IS no more discussion...you were wrong, and the police who stopped you, were right. I have to say,,,I wish that I could be so confident, about events which I didn't witness, and wasn't present.

But this might be a good time for both of you to respectfully agree to disagree. Just a thought.

I've personally heard and experienced enough profiling to know that (John's assurances to the contrary) yes, Virginia: profiling DOES occur, based purely upon race and nothing else. Some people here seem to think it a logical, necessary alternative to stopping and inconveniencing everyone. Funny, how almost all of the proponents of this notion are white men, who will suffer the profiling the least.

The general discussion theme of this thread seems to be a concern for the wellbeing for emigrants travelling into the US, versus a contention that a little loss of personal wellbeing and liberty is a necessary sacrifice against potential terrorists.

Taking a cue from Michael Ricca's excellent post, I like to think that both policies are possible.

Quote:
peacewarrior wrote:
Every country in this day and age need to be on the lookout for potential terrorist threats. This is an unfortunate fact, however from my personal experience I know that it is possible to go through security checks and immigration and still be treated with the respect that every human being deserves. I have been through many country's security and immigration without being belittled and made to feel I am a criminal.

An important point that we should be looking at is how Aiki was not used in this situation.

How different this situation could have been if the immigration officials would have treated this couple with respect instead of authority and conflict.

Would it had been so difficult to keep her husband informed on what was going on. Wouldn't we all have appreciated that little bit of respect. Why couldn't the authorities take the time and effort to look for the truth in their story. Is it fair to assume that because they were a young newlywed couple, they wanted to immigrate to the USA illegally. All of the legal paperwork was in order. If someone does not speak the language well, shouldn't there be more of an effort made to find proper translation or at least allow the woman in this case to properly explain herself in her native language. Speaking a foreign language is difficult, how easy it is to be misunderstood. The immigration officers should be aware of this even if other government officials are not.

Starting off with confrontation by assuming at the onset that they were going to break the law. Then continuing with a closed mind by not trying to find the truth. Followed by using force through authority by not allowing contact or explanation of what was going on. Only resulted in a whole bunch of hurt and negativity.

Seems to me there is a good Aikido lesson to be learned here.
Aikido is not just a pretty notion that we like to practice a few times a week: it is a living, guiding principle. Even non-aikidoists can demonstrate a principle of aikido (cf, Terry Dobson's story of the drunk on the train). It seems to me that it's not so hard to instill a little customer service in Customs...they certainly could use a few classes in interpersonal relations, just from what I've experienced, in travelling just within the country.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-09-2007 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 10-09-2007, 04:49 PM   #63
James Davis
 
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
But this might be a good time for both of you to respectfully agree to disagree. Just a thought.
I can agree with that; I don't think anybody's going to change their minds.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I've personally heard and experienced enough profiling to know that (John's assurances to the contrary) yes, Virginia: profiling DOES occur, based purely upon race and nothing else. Some people here seem to think it a logical, necessary alternative to stopping and inconveniencing everyone. Funny, how almost all of the proponents of this notion are white men, who will suffer the profiling the least.
I don't have to worry too much about profiling, as I've only flown a couple of times, but I was certainly familiar with the concept when I was a teenager. I know what it's like for someone to look at me and pass immediate judgement about what kind of person I am, and I don't wish that on anyone.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post

It seems to me that it's not so hard to instill a little customer service in Customs...they certainly could use a few classes in interpersonal relations, just from what I've experienced, in travelling just within the country.
There is the remote possibility that they were doing exactly what their boss told them to do. I myself work in a facility that treats people with cancer, and work with a boss that uses phrases like, "Don't waste your time explaining anything to the patients." The get 'em in, get 'em done, and get 'em out way of doing business is getting more commonplace.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 10-09-2007, 05:31 PM   #64
Neil Mick
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

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James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
There is the remote possibility that they were doing exactly what their boss told them to do.
Good point.

And, do you know something, just from a personal perspective? I live in California: was raised in Maryland. My last living parent (living in MD, still) won't come to visit me, ever. Why? All the horror-stories about Customs' treatment of passengers puts him right off flying.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-09-2007 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 10-10-2007, 12:48 AM   #65
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
If a police man pulls my car over and asks to look inside my trunk, based upon some reasonable suspicion. FINE- I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE! Let that person do the job to make my community safer to live in.
The young woman I referred to in the first post also had nothing to hide. The immigration officers who deported her were not trying to make anyone safer; they were avoiding a potential paperwork violation.

Anne-
the couple in question did (as I believe I already stated) have their paperwork in perfect order, ready to present. They checked the state department website before they came across to make sure that what they had was fine. They have both flown across the big pond and back again before this, without any trouble. They were both perfectly honest in their answers to the immigrations people. They have (at least until this point) been planning to settle in the U.S. someday, but that's hardly an excuse to stick someone on an 11 hour flight to their home country, with no attempt to check their story, when getting back again costs hundreds of dollars.

Ok- several people have written that this is business as usual for immigrations, both in the U.S. and in other countries. That does NOT make it even remotely ok.
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Old 10-10-2007, 08:18 AM   #66
Hogan
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Know what? I don't have any idea if the area was known for drug dealing. I'm from Spain, live in Spain, travel the world because of my job, don't know the drug-dealing-factor of every and all the places where I put my feet (of wheels) on. I repeat that it was a highway, so an improbable choice for drug dealing. And yes, it was evening. No, no improper lane change. No, no driving at the speed limit, but under. It that was the case I would have stated it. As I say, no nothing, JUST driving.
So, driving on the highway at night at what, 50-55, and you STILL claim you were stopped because the cops saw, again at night, that you were spaniard & an irishman? Sorry, but I call bull.

Quote:
Oh my! Your prose is becoming stubborn and insolent. He could have said "The States! The States - the country that invades countries to control the oil and/or gas, and makes wars to revitalize its economy, apparently very wary of all not like them" but he didn't.
..

Hahah... you're funny. If you were asked to submit to a strip search during your stop on the highway, you'd be screaming bloody murder. "They stripped me because I'm a spaniard & I was driving, nothing else.... Really! I'm offended!"

ahahah...
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:48 AM   #67
Marc Abrams
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

I would appreciate it if some law enforcement officers on this site chime in regarding the use of profiling. Those who make the assumption that it is simply bigotry and related to ethnicity/non-white are simply wrong about their assumptions.

Based upon what Lorien described, it does sound like an over-zealous person over-did it at customs. I have personally seen customs people act inappropriately. They can! You are not officially on US territory until you have cleared customs. They are a power onto their own.

We are lucky to have certain rights in the US which we can exercise. I have always treated law enforcement officers with respect. When they have been in the wrong, I have stuck to my guns (so to speak) and let the system work for me, protecting certain rights that I have.

I think that many people miss a larger issue. If being pulled over to clear a suspicion makes it safer for you to live in an area, WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL! It has happened to me and I still seem to be living just fine. I am a white male. I am also Jewish. I have experienced anti-semitism, "reverse discrimination", and other kinds of "unfair" life events. I have the maturity to weight the issues. I can work against injustice, but I can also entertain certain inconveniences as long as the result is my community being a safer community to live in.

A growing pet peeve that I am developing is a tendency to be annoyed at egotistical whining. People are so quick to demand that others go out of their way to understand how he/she is thinking, feeling, acting, etc., yet these very same people do not think that they have any obligation to reciprocate their own demands. How many people have ever considered what it is like to work as a law enforcement officer. They are human like we are. They want to come home at the end of their work day and be alive to spend time with their families. They are typically underpaid for what they do, routinely disrespected, insulted and attacked for trying to make our communities safer. I am not justifying police brutality or other unethical, illegal, or otherwise inappropriate actions on their part. I am just asking people to consider what the experience of a law enforcement officer is like. Maybe, just maybe some of you may befriend an officer, volunteer to assist (community watch, auxiliary police, etc), do anything to gain some awareness of what it takes to make our communities safer. Less than one year ago, two auxiliary police persons (unarmed volunteer) in New York City were shot to death when trying to assist to stop a crime. THESE PEOPLE PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE ON A DAILY BASIS TO MAKE OUR SOCIETY SAFER FOR US TO LIVE IN! Step back and gain some empathy for their experiences before you apply standards to them that you would not want to apply to you in their circumstances.

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-10-2007, 10:02 AM   #68
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Hi Marc.

Personally, I have friends and training partners that are LEO. I have nothing against them as a group, and I do not view standing up for my constitutional rights as whining or being immature.

I too am willing to accept a *certain* amount of inconvenience for safety. Getting shot, getting harrassed because of my race, getting beaten...these things do not fall into that category.

I myself simply COULD NOT DO the job that LEOs do every day. Just not up to the task. But I couldn't be an Air Traffic Controller either.

I still expect my plane to take off and land safely. I still expect LEOs to be professional, and to police their own the same way they police us. I do not believe there is anything wrong in asking for, and even demanding that.

And I find it currious that people would denigrate me for doing so...(see the whining and immature references in your post above.) Again...if you have not lived on this side of the fence...please do not be so quick to judge our response to injustice.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 10-10-2007 at 10:04 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-10-2007, 10:39 AM   #69
Marc Abrams
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Ron:

I have NEVER personally denigrated you, nor do I have any intention to do so in the future! I was making a generalized reference.

As to what side of living on a fence are you referring to? Let me see:
1) not gotten jobs because I was a white male
2) People have tried to physically assault me because I was Jewish.
3) Insulted too many times to count because I was Jewish.
4) Lost a close personal friend in a terrorist attack (Israel)
5) Most of one side of my family exterminated in Holocaust.
6) Other side of family- expelled, some killed in Russia's 1/3 plan.

The list goes on and on.

I have no problem demanding professionalism in the work place. We can assist those professionals in setting higher standards for conduct. Training officers in Aikido is an excellent way of contributing. I am not an idle watcher, but someone who puts time and effort into making our world a better and safer place to live in based upon overcoming ignorance, prejudice, etc...The sad reality is that many people contribute nothing but complaints instead of personal responsibility and contributions towards making their world a safer place to live in. Many of those same people then site some special circumstances, history, appearance, etc... as to why they should be treated differently and not held accountable to the standards that they want others to be held by.

Once again, I think that you and I are actually on the same page

Marc Abrams
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Old 10-10-2007, 10:42 AM   #70
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Kool.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-10-2007, 01:52 PM   #71
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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of course: there COULD be another explanation...

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
So, driving on the highway at night at what, 50-55, and you STILL claim you were stopped because the cops saw, again at night, that you were spaniard & an irishman? Sorry, but I call bull.
Yes, of course, Alejandro: you MUST be lying. After all, everyone KNOWS that American officials NEVER improperly detain, harass, or torture internationals....

...not without a good reason, of course (and, everyone ALSO knows that the ends justify the means).

Uh huh.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-10-2007 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 10-10-2007, 01:58 PM   #72
Hogan
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Re: of course: there COULD be another explanation...

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Yes, of course, Alejandro: you MUST be lying. After all, everyone KNOWS that American officials NEVER improperly detain, harass, or torture internationals....

...not without a good reason, of course (and, everyone ALSO knows that the ends justify the means).

Uh huh.
Here, Neil, do this:
Park on the side of the highway, much like a cop would do. Wait for a speeding car (speeding in relation to you) to go by. Make sure it is night time, windows up, light reflecting upon the window surface. Now, tell me... what color/race/nationality were the occupants of the vehicle that just passed you, while parked, going 55-65? Now... this is important, can you tell if one or more of the occupants were Irish?

Didn't think so...
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Old 10-10-2007, 02:15 PM   #73
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

jeez louise...

Has it really come to this??

Marc, maybe you were right and I was wrong.

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-10-2007, 02:21 PM   #74
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: of course: there COULD be another explanation...

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Here, Neil, do this:
Park on the side of the highway, much like a cop would do. Wait for a speeding car (speeding in relation to you) to go by. Make sure it is night time, windows up, light reflecting upon the window surface. Now, tell me... what color/race/nationality were the occupants of the vehicle that just passed you, while parked, going 55-65? Now... this is important, can you tell if one or more of the occupants were Irish?

Didn't think so...
You are making several assumpations, and ignoring at least one of Alejandro's remarks:

1. He said it was "evening," not "night."

Night could be anywhere from 9PM, to 3 in the morning.

EVENING, could be just at dusk.

2. He said that he was driving UNDER the speed limit. You decided that that had to be 55-65 (not that I think it excusable for a LEO to stop a car, just for travelling safely under the limit, but since you do: I'm going to let this one go).

3. Most importantly, tho: you neglected to consider that he ALSO said

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
They stopped our car. That's all. No speed up. No "messing with Texas". No nothing. Six cops (three cars) hands in holsters.
Six cops, hands on holsters, for two guys driving under the speed limit...? I'd think, being charitable, that the cops thought Alejandro matched the ID of a perp: but you think the story is bull.

That's your right, of course: but shall I suggest that your evidence is...thin? Putting it charitably, of course...

Personally, tho: I HAVE heard more than a few stories of people (from sources I trust) getting pulled over and given the 2nd degree, SOLELY based upon their nationality (and yes, in one such case: the persons were Hispanic).
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Old 10-10-2007, 02:57 PM   #75
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
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Re: Deportation: I am ashamed to be American at times

Neil:

We do not know the facts in this matter, only one side.

Other facts you might want to consider:

1) Low light conditions are the worst for eye-sight, highest likelihood for bad things happening, and most difficult environment to accurately assess.

2) Standard Operating Procedures: It has been proven FATAL for a single officer to approach a car. It is best done with at least two people, preferably more than one vehicle. Hands are not only suppose to be on the firearm, but the safety strap is suppose to be taken off before putting the hand on the firearm.

3) Note that Alejandro was not abused in any manner, shape or form.

4) LEO's have every right to do what is necessary to come home ALIVE from a day at work. That means safe, rather than deceased.

I am not defending government officials who abuse their position and power. I am also not rushing to judgment based upon one person's account as to the events in question.

Marc Abrams
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