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Old 10-07-2007, 10:56 AM   #301
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Here's some fearsome moves for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=990kdheTIOY
Wow. It's appalling how many people are born without a shame gene.
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Old 10-07-2007, 10:59 AM   #302
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If you watched any of it-you would find it equally hilarious, if not more so, as this video. Till you felt us hit or kick you, tried to throw us, or watched us hit a heavy bag.
Dan,

I'm not looking for comedy, but do you have any video of you or your students hitting a heavy bag? I'm curious to see how it looks different.
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:54 PM   #303
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
I'm naturally going to assume that by dropping this comment, you're well experienced in various arts, including grappling, wrestling, and striking?
Yes.Been There Done That... Started Karate in 1967 at the age of seven originally with Chuck Norris then Ed Parker Been doing something ever since. Judo and Wrestling in High School. 2nd Ranger Batt Hand to Hand Demo Team for a short while in the Service...More Karate...Boxing...Ju-Jitsu and now Aikido, Iaido, some Submission Wrestling... Just ran into an old friend "Rock N Roll" Rick Metzler and he's moved back to Malibu and hoping to start a Dojo Here. Rick is one of the Chief Instructors at "The Pit" Hawaiian Kempo and a 5th Dan (The other 5th Dan being Chuck of course)...The Pit Workouts are legendary and keep you in excellent shape...by the way...Im' not going to "learn" how to hit but to enjoy the hard training/conditioning which will greatly benefit my Aikido... There you have it Roman old buddy. The baseline experiance for my opinions. Here in LA with so many outstanding Martial Artists I am just a small fish in a big pond an good thing in my opinion.

Quote:
So you've done all that and still consider Aikikai to be among the most fearsome in the last 3 decades? You must simply be on a higher plane then the rest of us.
Well we're Aikikai and I would say our Aikido kicks ass but then I would sound like a broken record and contradict myself because I am in Aikido for other reasons and I know Aikido is effective against other Martial Arts. So yes... even though you're putting words in my mouth (since I just mentioned Yamada Sensei NOT Aikikai which by the way has many branches) doesn't bother me... Your nearsightedness will clear up over time.

William Hazen
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Old 10-07-2007, 02:11 PM   #304
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well, I don't mind body training looking funny. I do some really odd looking rolling around on the floor and flipping for ground work training. And some truly weird looking standing exercises. Including something we do for crossline bodywork meant to strengthen while loosening the central pivot. I call it gorilla aiki. And breathwork training looks worse. Hell, I have people standing in doorways stretching their tendon/ligaments in their crotch. I'll let folks laugh all the day long. If you ask the folks who have come here from AikiWeb they will tell you we laugh at ourselves and each other so the embarrassment over the "weirdness" of what they are being asked to do is diminished. If you watched any of it-you would find it equally hilarious, if not more so, as this video. Till you felt us hit or kick you, tried to throw us, or watched us hit a heavy bag.

And to make this Aikido video even funnier- the thing those exercises they were doing were meant to impart? It's not even being done. Their lines are a mess. Hips rising and falling, upper out of step with the lower, swaying, If you watch Shioda you will see a whole different movement going on in the same types of movement. It isn't the same. So in the saddest of all possibilities, these folks here can't even say they are actually "doing' anything much more than the joke that was made of it...line dancing.

William
I addressed it the way it sounded that's all. No offense intened. I don't usually disagree with much of what you write. But I found that one over the top bro.
No worries Dan we're on the same basic path... here's some help...

American College Dictionary- "Fierce":3. Intensly eager; intense; ardent

He mellowed in his old age but Yamada Sensei would mix it up with the best of them back in the day...Unless Virgina Mayhew Sensei was BS'ing me. Virgina was one of the first Gaijin women to move to Japan and train with both O'Sensei and Shoji Nishio Shihan.She was a pioneer in the late 1950's. She knew Yamada very very well. He has been completely dedicated to his Aikido for a very long time.

As for the rest of your comments I completely agree. If your practice sucks then that means your teachers suck and how can you hope to be good someday???

Take Care

William Hazen
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Old 10-07-2007, 03:46 PM   #305
DonMagee
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Wow. It's appalling how many people are born without a shame gene.
I found it horribly funny. I suspect my aikido teacher will as well.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-07-2007, 05:16 PM   #306
DH
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Dan,

I'm not looking for comedy, but do you have any video of you or your students hitting a heavy bag? I'm curious to see how it looks different.
Hi Dan.
Nope. I'm not much of a video guy. Don't expect I ever will be either.
Its not the look of hitting the bag.You won't be able to "see" anything other than me not doing much and the bag jumping in the chain or banging off the wall. There's nothing to learn from watching, and most have trouble learning from doing with me showing anyway-so there's really no point in a video.
A typical boxers knockout punch will knock you out just as well so who cares right?.I just don't generate power that way. Nor should anyone in Aikido...ever. The upside is this way of moving allows me to do some interesting things close-in that a boxer or jujutsuka cannot typically do. And on the ground, in a clinch, or on my back, it brings a whole new tool set to play as you can deliver knockout power in a very small space.

Last edited by DH : 10-07-2007 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 10-07-2007, 06:13 PM   #307
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You won't be able to "see" anything other than me not doing much and the bag jumping in the chain or banging off the wall.
That would have been fine, but no worries, just thought I'd ask.
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Old 10-07-2007, 09:54 PM   #308
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
I know Aikido is effective against other Martial Arts
Totally agree with you. The only martial art Aikido is ineffective against is the Art of the Video Camera...for some strange reason, every time someone tries to film Aikido against other arts, the Aikido tends to muck up...

Weird. I will meditate on this during my next tea ceremony.

edit: Just out of curiosity, what is your experience in MMA? From what I read, you've done the individual arts, yes.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 10-07-2007 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 10-07-2007, 10:02 PM   #309
Jeremy Lambert
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

I would reply but really doesn't require one. A little short sighted though.
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Old 10-07-2007, 11:23 PM   #310
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Weird. I will meditate on this during my next tea ceremony.
Well, I think you're supposed to be focusing on tea ceremony when doing tea ceremony

Quote:
edit: Just out of curiosity, what is your experience in MMA? From what I read, you've done the individual arts, yes
Might that not be called a Mix of Martial Arts?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-08-2007, 08:37 AM   #311
DonMagee
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Training multiple arts and practicing MMA are not the same things any longer.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-08-2007, 09:55 AM   #312
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Training multiple arts and practicing MMA are not the same things any longer.
From what little I can tell, I guess I'd have to agree. "MMA" has become a proper noun instead of a simple description and mostly seems to be a hybrid of wrestling, judo (by way of BJJ), and thai boxing. Still, the concept behind MMA, which is to cross-train in order to gain a more accurate perspective, seems to still apply to what's being discussed, don't you think?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-08-2007, 10:15 AM   #313
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Might that not be called a Mix of Martial Arts?
I''m sure everyone here knows the difference between competitive fighting, and a "mix of martial arts", so I'm not gonna explain the obvious.
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Old 10-08-2007, 10:27 AM   #314
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
I''m sure everyone here knows the difference between competitive fighting, and a "mix of martial arts", so I'm not gonna explain the obvious.
Yeah I get it now, I got confused by the reference to "individual" arts following the idea that Aikido always mucks it up when filmed with "other [martial] arts." My bad; I understand MMA is not literally "Mixed Martial Arts" any more...just wasn't thinking of it in those terms at the time.
Although, if judo and karate were involved, "competitive fighting," as you say, probably would have been inclusive to what was being referenced, don't you think?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-08-2007 at 10:30 AM.

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Old 10-08-2007, 11:33 AM   #315
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
I''m sure everyone here knows the difference between competitive fighting, and a "mix of martial arts", so I'm not gonna explain the obvious.
I dunno...from what I can tell this is basically a discussion calling into question the effectiveness of Aikido again. Your premise seems to be that Aikido falls short because of its lack of competition. Without talking much about Tomiki Ryu (ie-"Aikido"), from what I can tell, competition alone doesn't make the difference, though it provides something very useful.
Granted, you might only be speaking in very general terms when you talk about the "ineffectiveness" of Aikido against other arts and assume as many do that on average a person with say 3 years of training in it will not fair well against a 3yr MMA/competitive fighting-dude. I can't really address that as I haven't even come close to experiencing the "average" Aikidoka like you might well have. So my point of view really only speaks from my own frame of reference: Tomiki Ryu and Barrish sensei's teaching of Aikido. One involves competition; the other doesn't; both seem to be effective.
Then again, if you're just talking about the average aikidoka (which for all I know could fit your description) in your conversation with "aikibu" as being ineffective against other martial arts, maybe you should just speak more specifically instead of simply saying, "aikido." If you said that in an earlier post, I appologize for misrepresenting your meaning. I have a hard time reading every post and I know that makes it difficult to always get what other folks here mean.
That said, in the matter of "combat effectiveness," MMA might very well be the best thing out there...or even just the newest thing which has revived the practicality of martial arts in general (a very useful thing, of course), but to describe aikido as "ineffective," as you seem to be doing, is incorrect per everything I've ever experienced. "Aikido," in my opinion, is itself distinct from any given person who practices it (despite the fact that they often shape its practice), so it doesn't matter how many aikidoka there are who hypothetically might be bad at "fighting." "Aikido" works against other martial arts, though not every practicioner will do well...particularly when you become as popular as Aikido has become. Karate and Tae Kwon Do experienced similar issues of effectiveness (ie- the McDojo), but that doesn't mean they're "ineffective." They were born from combat-oriented thinking, after all.
PS-in terms of self-defense/combat, from what I've seen of MMA on youtube, the ne-waza focus is very dangerous in a setting where there are many people around. This is what I see of MMA, does that mean that's all there is to it? No.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-08-2007 at 11:42 AM.

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Old 10-08-2007, 11:56 AM   #316
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Training multiple arts and practicing MMA are not the same things any longer.
I respectfully disagree...Mixed Martial Arts is just a description. The sport of MMA is new but training in MMA has gone on for Generations. Even Aikido is MMA in a sense since for example ours blends Karate, Judo, Iaido, Jodo, and Aikido together.

So in essence we practice MMA all the time. In my experiance every good teacher I know tries to incorporate other techniques to try to make thier practice better.

With the advent of the sport of MMA and You tube I personally think some folks have lost sight of the forest because they have been blinded by a few trees.

Nothing new there... I remember as a child when Kung Fu was all the rage (it even had it's own disco song LOL) back then Folks we're talking how Kung Fu would make all other Arts Obsolete. I was very young when Bruce Lee was alive but I remember how he said not to get caught up in rigid forms. Then the Billy Jack Movies came out and everyone was sure Bong Soo Han's Hapkido (God Bless Master Han RIP) would make everything else silly to practice as it was far superior blah blah blah.

Now my time line may be a bit messed up but this kind of thing has been going on since I started practice in the late 60's as a child every decade or so something "new" comes out. In the 80's I remember the PKA... I trained hard for it at one point, and got smacked around by guys like Bill "Superfoot" Wallace... So a full 15 to 20 years before the popularity of MMA folks were testing thier practice "in the ring" The only reason MMA is thriving now is because they made it a sport with rules and within those rules you can only make certain things work. Does some of this translate outside of the ring absolutely! Does this mean everything else is BS because of it? Nope. Is MMA training good for self defense? Absolutely. Is it good for Combat ( as some folks throw this concept around all the time) Absolutely not... Except... To give Soldiers a strong baseline. You're not going to square off with someone on the battlefield and duke it out..You're going to kill/destroy them as fast as you can by any means at your disposal

Will Aikido and other traditional Martial Arts 'survive" this latest "trend". Absolutely. Is MMA a legitimate Martial discipline? Absolutely. Can Aikido and MMA learn from each other and grow "better" Absolutely

Will some folks in the Media Universe eventually grow up with regard to thier arrogance about any Martial Art they practice? Yup.... That is an essential part of all Martial Disciplines. Maturity and Respect for the Other evolves with good practice.

Will folks eventually come to thier senses with regard to You Tube? Yup... Science has taught us that Visual Perception is the weakest link in any hypothesis and someday regular folks will seek to delve deeper beyond what they see and subject thier perception to Rational Art of the Scientific Method once again. Or... they will just get bored with it. LOL

Take Care Don,

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 10-08-2007 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 10-08-2007, 12:37 PM   #317
DonMagee
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I respectfully disagree...Mixed Martial Arts is just a description. The sport of MMA is new but training in MMA has gone on for Generations. Even Aikido is MMA in a sense since for example ours blends Karate, Judo, Iaido, Jodo, and Aikido together.

So in essence we practice MMA all the time. In my experiance every good teacher I know tries to incorporate other techniques to try to make thier practice better.

With the advent of the sport of MMA and You tube I personally think some folks have lost sight of the forest because they have been blinded by a few trees.

Nothing new there... I remember as a child when Kung Fu was all the rage (it even had it's own disco song LOL) back then Folks we're talking how Kung Fu would make all other Arts Obsolete. I was very young when Bruce Lee was alive but I remember how he said not to get caught up in rigid forms. Then the Billy Jack Movies came out and everyone was sure Bong Soo Han's Hapkido (God Bless Master Han RIP) would make everything else silly to practice as it was far superior blah blah blah.

Now my time line may be a bit messed up but this kind of thing has been going on since I started practice in the late 60's as a child every decade or so something "new" comes out. In the 80's I remember the PKA... I trained hard for it at one point, and got smacked around by guys like Bill "Superfoot" Wallace... So a full 15 to 20 years before the popularity of MMA folks were testing thier practice "in the ring" The only reason MMA is thriving now is because they made it a sport with rules and within those rules you can only make certain things work. Does some of this translate outside of the ring absolutely! Does this mean everything else is BS because of it? Nope. Is MMA training good for self defense? Absolutely. Is it good for Combat ( as some folks throw this concept around all the time) Absolutely not... Except... To give Soldiers a strong baseline. You're not going to square off with someone on the battlefield and duke it out..You're going to kill/destroy them as fast as you can by any means at your disposal

Will Aikido and other traditional Martial Arts 'survive" this latest "trend". Absolutely. Is MMA a legitimate Martial discipline? Absolutely. Can Aikido and MMA learn from each other and grow "better" Absolutely

Will some folks in the Media Universe eventually grow up with regard to thier arrogance about any Martial Art they practice? Yup.... That is an essential part of all Martial Disciplines. Maturity and Respect for the Other evolves with good practice.

Will folks eventually come to thier senses with regard to You Tube? Yup... Science has taught us that Visual Perception is the weakest link in any hypothesis and someday regular folks will seek to delve deeper beyond what they see and subject thier perception to Rational Art of the Scientific Method once again. Or... they will just get bored with it. LOL

Take Care Don,

William Hazen
So before the advent of sport MMA, you called people who trained in multiple martial arts "Mixed martial artists" and they described themselves and MMA fighters?

I just don't buy it. Sure there have always been people who mixed arts. Even Bruce Lee named his mix of styles. The modern day use of MMA has direct sport meaning and has superseded its original use in the begining days of value tudo and the like.

This partly has to do with the expectation of training. If someone says I train in a mix of martial arts, this tells me nothing. I then have to clarify on the arts. Then I can get a good feel for the type of training they receive. If they said TKD, Aikido, and Kendo. I know what they training is probably. But that would not be anywhere close to what I think of as MMA training. In fact even if the guy said he did bjj, Mauy Thai, and wrestling, He is still not doing 'MMA'.

Modern MMA as used in the context of modern martial arts is a description of a training method for competitive 'low rules' fighting. This would be a series of delivery systems for standup, clinch, and ground fighting that is rolled together will drills and sparing designed to blend these into a 'complete' system for competition. There is little if any focus on self defense (not to say it can't be used for it) and a very big focus on wining in competition.

People who compete in MMA events are not automatically training MMA either. I practice BJJ, Judo, some boxing and muay thai when I get the fancy and the occasional aikido class. I am not training MMA. Sometimes I do train MMA, but this is not any of those other things I train. If I was to step in the UFC today, I would not be announced an MMA fighther. I would be described best as a bjj or judo fighter.

If I was to describe to you the normal training the kids who practice MMA do in my club, and the training I do, you would find them very similar, but my training is still different. My training is far more isolated with ground fighting being different then my takedowns and that being done on different days then my striking and very rarely do the sparing matches allow all of the skills I practice. A MMA fighter's training would be turned around. They would be focused on the full use of all the ranges of fighting in their sparing and drills, combining two or more ranges into a sparing session. Very rarely are you going to see only 'boxing' or only 'bjj'. More often are you going to see Boxing with takedowns, or bjj with strikes to allow them to full explore an isolated range in the exact method they are going to use in competition.

Finally, everyone in the martial arts world at this point should be aware of MMA competition. It happens in almost every major country in the world, it's huge or growing rapidly in the country's where the majority of martial art came from, and it's impact is felt everywhere you look in martial arts websites, magazines, etc. As with any word, modern use of a word can change it's meaning. A perfect example is hacker. I am a computer geek who spends his free time (which is very little anymore) playing with hardware and writing software to do cool things. Years ago I could call myself a hacker and everyone knew what I meant. Today if I told someone I am a hacker, they will not know what I mean. They will assume I mean to do illegal things with computers and cost companies millions of dollars. Calling myself a hacker is misrepresenting myself. I can whine all I want about the original meaning. It still does not change the fact that the language has moved on.

MMA is the same thing. It has moved on, and is solidifying into it's own unique and distinct style/styles. Maybe in the future we will have Randy Culture Ryu or something, but right now it's MMA. So at this moment, anyone who claims to train MMA and is not truly training for rule set of sport MMA competitions is misrepresenting himself (intentionally or unintentionally).

To say "I train in a mix of martial arts such as ..... with a primary focus in ..." is way way different then saying "I am a mixed martial artist".

Of course in the end MMA is really a throwback to what martial arts used to be (full contact fighting with a variety of rules) before the 70's - 90's where everyone got all metaphysical and became philosopher bar bouncers and poets who were too deadly for physical contact.

Last edited by DonMagee : 10-08-2007 at 12:40 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-08-2007, 12:53 PM   #318
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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So before the advent of sport MMA, you called people who trained in multiple martial arts "Mixed martial artists" and they described themselves and MMA fighters?

I just don't buy it. Sure there have always been people who mixed arts. Even Bruce Lee named his mix of styles. The modern day use of MMA has direct sport meaning and has superseded its original use in the begining days of value tudo and the like.

This partly has to do with the expectation of training. If someone says I train in a mix of martial arts, this tells me nothing. I then have to clarify on the arts. Then I can get a good feel for the type of training they receive. If they said TKD, Aikido, and Kendo. I know what they training is probably. But that would not be anywhere close to what I think of as MMA training. In fact even if the guy said he did bjj, Mauy Thai, and wrestling, He is still not doing 'MMA'.

Modern MMA as used in the context of modern martial arts is a description of a training method for competitive 'low rules' fighting. This would be a series of delivery systems for standup, clinch, and ground fighting that is rolled together will drills and sparing designed to blend these into a 'complete' system for competition. There is little if any focus on self defense (not to say it can't be used for it) and a very big focus on wining in competition.

People who compete in MMA events are not automatically training MMA either. I practice BJJ, Judo, some boxing and muay thai when I get the fancy and the occasional aikido class. I am not training MMA. Sometimes I do train MMA, but this is not any of those other things I train. If I was to step in the UFC today, I would not be announced an MMA fighther. I would be described best as a bjj or judo fighter.

If I was to describe to you the normal training the kids who practice MMA do in my club, and the training I do, you would find them very similar, but my training is still different. My training is far more isolated with ground fighting being different then my takedowns and that being done on different days then my striking and very rarely do the sparing matches allow all of the skills I practice. A MMA fighter's training would be turned around. They would be focused on the full use of all the ranges of fighting in their sparing and drills, combining two or more ranges into a sparing session. Very rarely are you going to see only 'boxing' or only 'bjj'. More often are you going to see Boxing with takedowns, or bjj with strikes to allow them to full explore an isolated range in the exact method they are going to use in competition.

Finally, everyone in the martial arts world at this point should be aware of MMA competition. It happens in almost every major country in the world, it's huge or growing rapidly in the country's where the majority of martial art came from, and it's impact is felt everywhere you look in martial arts websites, magazines, etc. As with any word, modern use of a word can change it's meaning. A perfect example is hacker. I am a computer geek who spends his free time (which is very little anymore) playing with hardware and writing software to do cool things. Years ago I could call myself a hacker and everyone knew what I meant. Today if I told someone I am a hacker, they will not know what I mean. They will assume I mean to do illegal things with computers and cost companies millions of dollars. Calling myself a hacker is misrepresenting myself. I can whine all I want about the original meaning. It still does not change the fact that the language has moved on.

MMA is the same thing. It has moved on, and is solidifying into it's own unique and distinct style/styles. Maybe in the future we will have Randy Culture Ryu or something, but right now it's MMA. So at this moment, anyone who claims to train MMA and is not truly training for rule set of sport MMA competitions is misrepresenting himself (intentionally or unintentionally).

To say "I train in a mix of martial arts such as ..... with a primary focus in ..." is way way different then saying "I am a mixed martial artist".

Of course in the end MMA is really a throwback to what martial arts used to be (full contact fighting with a variety of rules) before the 70's - 90's where everyone got all metaphysical and became philosopher bar bouncers and poets who were too deadly for physical contact.
With all due respect Don. It does not matter how you frame the Rhetoric The definition of Mixed Martial Artist is far broader then the one you're trying to define. It has a long tradition and goes back further that the dawn of Western Media. I think the semantic framework of your post has you chasing your own tail.

Respectfully,

William Hazen
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:06 PM   #319
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
So before the advent of sport MMA, you called people who trained in multiple martial arts "Mixed martial artists" and they described themselves and MMA fighters?
Great post...gave me a clearer picture of things, thank you. It seems you might liken MMA with judo during the last turn of the century: it came from studying multiple approaches and formed its own codified system from them, thus becoming something new...or new-ish, anyway.
My only disagreement would seem to be with the idea that the phrase "mixed martial artist" always equals "MMA." Just because the common semantics of the phrase might mean one thing, that doesn't mean a person who trains in multiple arts can't accurately describe themselves as such. I've got very little MMA exposure (all visual), but I personally would describe a person who trains in multiple arts, a mixed martial artist. I can't say exactly when that phrase came into full usage, but it was probably around the time MMA was developing into something distinct. Talking to friends of mine who don't train in martial arts but are fans of the UFC would take the phrase to be a general description more than some single entity.
The idea of a Randy Culture Ryu seems to already be around though...the only difference I see is in the terminology. When people speak of the Lion's Den, or who various people are training with, they're alluding to the kind of thing "ryu/schools" address: particular systems approaching the same thing (how to use the body efficiently; with power).

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-08-2007 at 01:09 PM.

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Old 10-08-2007, 01:46 PM   #320
DonMagee
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
With all due respect Don. It does not matter how you frame the Rhetoric The definition of Mixed Martial Artist is far broader then the one you're trying to define. It has a long tradition and goes back further that the dawn of Western Media. I think the semantic framework of your post has you chasing your own tail.

Respectfully,

William Hazen
Does this give license for black belts in judo to claim to be black belts in bjj? After all, bjj came from judo and the name is just a modern twist. Perhaps all judo guys can describe themselves as training jujitsu? Yet their method of practice looks nothing like japanese jujutsu I've seen. If a jujutsu practioner told me they trained judo, I would be very shocked to go visit them and see them doing weapons work and katas all day long.

Like I've told English teachers here on campus, the most important part about language is being on the same page. If you mean one thing and everyone else you speak to does not use that meaning, it does not matter if your meaning is the 'correct' term. Meanings change.

Just like modern 'traditional' martial arts are anything but traditional, the modern usage of MMA is far from training in multiple martial arts. It doesn't matter if you agree or not. You, like my friends who still call themselves hackers, are just relics who need to understand that most people are going to have a false understanding of what you do when you tell them you are a 'Mixed martial artist'.

Jiujitsu is another word that is meeting this fate. If you tell me you practice Jiujitsu (in a context where I can see the spelling), I have no idea of what you do. I have to ask "Japanese, Brazilian, or American?". Depending on the area you use it, people are going to have assumptions. If you said it in japan, people are going to think about the historic old arts from a bygone era. If you say that in brazil they are assuming you mean you train with the Gracies. If you say it in the US, depending on your whom your speaking, you either mean a bunch of funny kata, or a sport from brazil. There is simply no way to know. But as MMA gets more popular, it is only obvious that the meaning will sway it's common usage to bjj. This is already seen by watching the UFC or talking on a MMA forum. They no longer say bjj, they just say jiujitsu. Joe Rogan will say "He's a brown belt in jiujitsu". With usage the definition changes. Where it was once needed to define you were doing bjj and not japanese, now you are beginning to need to define you are doing japanese and not bjj.

Beginning judo practitioners called what they did jiujitsu. Kano called it judo and eventual usage made it such that for a judo man to call what he does jiujitsu would be to miss represent himself. Even though technically, he is doing a form of jiujitsu.

Technically, one could go train at a local ATA mcdojo and another gimpy place and call themselves a Mixed martial artist. But when they tell other people that, they are misrepresenting themselves. They know, or at least they should know that people think they mean MMA sport fighter.

This fact is further solidified by the fact that people on this forum had to explicitly asked when MMA training was done, meaning by saying mixed martial artists they automatically assumed MMA sport fight training.

Rectangles have 4 sides. Squares have 4 sides. All Squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. If you are a rectangle, and you claim to be a rectangle and not a square, people will assume things. You have let them assume things. Of course you can say "Well, I do have 4 sides..." and you are correct. But the common knowledge of a rectangle and a square have caused a misrepresentation.

So in a nut shell, times change. Agree or not, you will eventually have to face the fact that nobody will know what you are talking about and you will be eventually bold face misrepresenting yourself without explaining a lot more then saying "yea, I train MMA."

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:48 PM   #321
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

The one thing I've noticed is how no one likes to be left out by admitting they've never actually done MMA. They will claim they've dabbled in various arts here and there, in high school/a few years back/etc They'll even give their own take on the actual acronym of MMA.

In the most well known sense: MMA is merely the North American name for no holds barred fighting or Vale Tudo. It's a competitive environment more than a collection of fighting methods. People shouldn't get caught up in the name. They have to call it something. Call it Hillbilly Rat Fighting. It'll still contain kicks and punches and takedowns.

I think the MMA crowd is more at peace with what they do. The traditional guys will whine more than the serious MMA guys. And yes I know a lot of MMA guys whine about traditional arts on internet forums. At the end of the day they go back to sparring, and the traditional guys go back to compliant kata. The world just works, and those who are happy with what they do, stay happy.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 10-08-2007 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 10-08-2007, 02:24 PM   #322
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Does this give license for black belts in judo to claim to be black belts in bjj? After all, bjj came from judo and the name is just a modern twist. Perhaps all judo guys can describe themselves as training jujitsu? Yet their method of practice looks nothing like japanese jujutsu I've seen. If a jujutsu practioner told me they trained judo, I would be very shocked to go visit them and see them doing weapons work and katas all day long.
Language is only one part of the Trivium Don. The other two parts are Logic and Rhetoric. Since this is nothing more that a straw man argument or (in english) Argument by Association I suggest you explore this line of thinking in better detail and with an objective point of view. To use your same argument The Kimoura is a Modern Judo Submission and yet it's identified with MMA. What does it matter to the user if he learns it in "MMA" or "Judo" Can it not be "said" that he practices an MMA technique or a Judo technique or both? ( I prefer both)

Quote:
Like I've told English teachers here on campus, the most important part about language is being on the same page. If you mean one thing and everyone else you speak to does not use that meaning, it does not matter if your meaning is the 'correct' term. Meanings change.
True but again as part of the Trivium Both "meanings" can be true and both false it just depends on the context. My context is simple MMA is not new nor revolutionary just part of an evolution

Quote:
Just like modern 'traditional' martial arts are anything but traditional, the modern usage of MMA is far from training in multiple martial arts. It doesn't matter if you agree or not. You, like my friends who still call themselves hackers, are just relics who need to understand that most people are going to have a false understanding of what you do when you tell them you are a 'Mixed martial artist'.
Another fallacy commonly reffered to as ignoratio elenchi Since (as you admit) there is no definative syllubus for Mixed Martial Arts everyone and no one practices them and uses a combination of techniques that have already been developed in other Martial Disciplines How can you "argue" the Differance between Mixed Martial Arts and a Martial Artist who uses different techniques from a varieity of Martial Arts. Very Interesting.

Quote:
Jiujitsu is another word that is meeting this fate. If you tell me you practice Jiujitsu (in a context where I can see the spelling), I have no idea of what you do. I have to ask "Japanese, Brazilian, or American?". Depending on the area you use it, people are going to have assumptions. If you said it in japan, people are going to think about the historic old arts from a bygone era. If you say that in brazil they are assuming you mean you train with the Gracies. If you say it in the US, depending on your whom your speaking, you either mean a bunch of funny kata, or a sport from brazil. There is simply no way to know. But as MMA gets more popular, it is only obvious that the meaning will sway it's common usage to bjj. This is already seen by watching the UFC or talking on a MMA forum. They no longer say bjj, they just say jiujitsu. Joe Rogan will say "He's a brown belt in jiujitsu". With usage the definition changes. Where it was once needed to define you were doing bjj and not japanese, now you are beginning to need to define you are doing japanese and not bjj.

Beginning judo practitioners called what they did jiujitsu. Kano called it judo and eventual usage made it such that for a judo man to call what he does jiujitsu would be to miss represent himself. Even though technically, he is doing a form of jiujitsu.
I will agree that the media has a large influance on popular culture but however with all due respect having influance does not constitute being an Authority. Argumentum Ad Authoritum

Quote:
Technically, one could go train at a local ATA mcdojo and another gimpy place and call themselves a Mixed martial artist. But when they tell other people that, they are misrepresenting themselves. They know, or at least they should know that people think they mean MMA sport fighter.

This fact is further solidified by the fact that people on this forum had to explicitly asked when MMA training was done, meaning by saying mixed martial artists they automatically assumed MMA sport fight training.

Rectangles have 4 sides. Squares have 4 sides. All Squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. If you are a rectangle, and you claim to be a rectangle and not a square, people will assume things. You have let them assume things. Of course you can say "Well, I do have 4 sides..." and you are correct. But the common knowledge of a rectangle and a square have caused a misrepresentation.

So in a nut shell, times change. Agree or not, you will eventually have to face the fact that nobody will know what you are talking about and you will be eventually bold face misrepresenting yourself without explaining a lot more then saying "yea, I train MMA."
Yawn...In your own mind perhaps...Ignoring my premise does not invalidate it.Again FYI thats called ignoratio elenchi If you wish to feel that somehow MMA is "special" and is not a part of the family of Martial Arts Well who am I to change your mind Don? LOL

Respectfully,

William Hazen
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Old 10-08-2007, 02:31 PM   #323
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
The one thing I've noticed is how no one likes to be left out by admitting they've never actually done MMA. They will claim they've dabbled in various arts here and there, in high school/a few years back/etc They'll even give their own take on the actual acronym of MMA.

In the most well known sense: MMA is merely the North American name for no holds barred fighting or Vale Tudo. It's a competitive environment more than a collection of fighting methods. People shouldn't get caught up in the name. They have to call it something. Call it Hillbilly Rat Fighting. It'll still contain kicks and punches and takedowns.

I think the MMA crowd is more at peace with what they do. The traditional guys will whine more than the serious MMA guys. And yes I know a lot of MMA guys whine about traditional arts on internet forums. At the end of the day they go back to sparring, and the traditional guys go back to compliant kata. The world just works, and those who are happy with what they do, stay happy.

Edited by me. This posts speaks for itself.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 10-08-2007 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 10-08-2007, 02:41 PM   #324
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

I wrote this giant post out. I then realized I can summarize this very quickly.

If I open a school called "Don's Mixed Martial Arts Academy", what would you expect to be taught there?

It makes my point better then the 7 paragraphs.

If that doesn't do it, google MMA. Look at the references. Modern use and definition of the word is on my side. Personally, I feel people only call themselves MMA because they feel the need to associate themselves with the sport somehow. If you came into any club I've trained at and said you were a MMA practitioner, we would ask where you fought or trained. If you didn't train in an MMA club, or fight in MMA events, we would push you off into a wannabe realm.

If you would like, I can post my huge post on the argument at hand dealing with logic, modern use of the word, perceptions in training, modern methods, history of MMA, etc. I saved it in a nice text document to work on as a possible post on bullshido.

- Don
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Old 10-08-2007, 02:48 PM   #325
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
...Perhaps all judo guys can describe themselves as training jujitsu?

Like I've told English teachers here on campus, the most important part about language is being on the same page. If you mean one thing and everyone else you speak to does not use that meaning, it does not matter if your meaning is the 'correct' term. Meanings change.
Meanings change from person to person. I would say that, yes, in a very real sense, judo guys can call what they do jujutsu. Break down the rootwords and it makes perfect sense. Judo (the way/method of "ju") is a collection of jujutsuwaza compiled into a coherant system. Think of the terms as proper nouns however, and I agree it doesn't make sense. I agree with you that one of the most important parts of language is common understanding or else you have two people preaching to the pelicans and wondering why the other guy doesn't get it. However, you're wrong that popular usage dictates "correct" meaning...at least, that's what you seem to be saying. Semantics/meaning is far more subjective than that. So with regard to "mixed martial arts" it's not, "one meaning or the other"; it's both, de facto. Popularity of meaning has nothing to do with it...it's not like I looked at MMA and thought, "I'm going to find an obscure meaning to tangle up the conversation." I saw the phrase, it registered a particular meaning, and I expressed an idea based on that meaning. What matters next is that a communication of meaning take place. If meaning can change over time, it doesn't come about through rejecting different meanings that get proposed for a term just because they're not popular or common...or they wouldn't change in the first place.

Quote:
Beginning judo practitioners called what they did jiujitsu. Kano called it judo and eventual usage made it such that for a judo man to call what he does jiujitsu would be to miss represent himself. Even though technically, he is doing a form of jiujitsu.
Then "technically" I'm no different in my original usage of the phrase "mixed martial art." In the same way you're using the term "technically" to describe a context which make the meaning valid, so too are we describing our own contextual meaning of the phrase in question. What you're doing is saying everyone should have the same meaning of mixed martial arts in orer to make communication easier...that's a linguistic argument many linguists would agree with, but not exactly what we're talking about here.
My original point, which seems to be not very important to anyone but myself, was that a person who trains in multiple martial arts (and which do include competition) might have a good perspective on whether or not aikido works with other arts. I appologize if this idea is not very interesting, and that it has sparked a debate on the nature of semantics, but would anyone care to address this idea instead of arguing over the differences of what "mixed martial arts" means?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-08-2007 at 02:55 PM.

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