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Old 08-30-2007, 09:44 PM   #176
Aristeia
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

cause I already know :-)

Graham if you feel like a bit of rolling while you're hear feel free to stop by -www.groundcontrol.net.nz

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:43 PM   #177
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Try this. Grab two untrained men in reasonable physical condition. Show them a 2 $100 notes in your wallet and put the wallet in a button down pocket. Tell them the money is theirs if they can take it. See how long you stay on your feet.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NGJCl6IS_xQ

I reckon a wrestler/grappler and Aikidoka would last roughly about the same amount of time.
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:26 AM   #178
Aristeia
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

until they hit the ground? You may be right. My point was that it's going to go to the ground so saying "you don't want to learn groundfighting if you're dealing with multiples" is misguided. That's when you're most likely to hit the mat so if you've never been down there....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-31-2007, 05:43 AM   #179
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Phil here's where we differ. You think in a multiple scenario engagement you'll have a choice whether you go to ground. I'm not saying BJJ is all you need - not by a long stretch. But it is a part of it. Ground fighting is *necessary* but not *sufficient* for self defence in all scenarios.

Try this. Grab two untrained men in reasonable physical condition. Show them a 2 $100 notes in your wallet and put the wallet in a button down pocket. Tell them the money is theirs if they can take it. See how long you stay on your feet.

I agree that grappling will sometimes be your last option. But sometimes you don't have an option....
No Michael, I do not think you will have a choice to go to the ground or not.
You keep talking in absolute terms. I am talking in relatives terms.
IE there are some cases when if you hit the deck you are buggered regardless your ground skill. For those case it is better to train against being taken down than what to do after.

That is the point of the two guys at 1 meters distance drill/exercise. Just try it, you will see that your will be getting swarmed/overwhelm as soon as you hit the deck.
And they will bring you down if you do not have a fence. (I would even say that they will bring you down even if you have a fence and you marginally cock up).From what we have tried the fence do not help as much for ground work. It is a tad too close. It helps creating distance but not enough to make ground work reliable.
Again we are talking likely scenario here, this is not true for all cases. The case that graham put forward is a good example of my statement being wrong and yours being right.
Modifying the distance at which they start or the distance between then will tell you when one is "correct" approach.
It shows as well that creating the condition to fight on the ground safely and staying up are variation of the same function. You need to create distance in order to get time to apply and recover from the application of a given technique.
Now not training on the ground do not equate not training against being taken down. I am totally with you on the point that one needs to train against take down.
The first time you shoot someone that never dealt with it before. He will end up on his arse.(of course there is always exceptions but I was not one of them…).

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:48 AM   #180
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Hi Phil,

Enjoying the exchange (not really arguing, I hope).

Don’t get me wrong, I would hope to one day be like O’Sensei, and never need to use ground techniques because I can deal with my opponents at the moment of contact, or before (through peaceful negotiations ).

I am currently trying to get some statistics together, since you are pushing the “likely” scenario thing. I do agree with this, as I am sure Michael does, but we just have different ideas as to what we think is more likely. I have seen people clinch in one on one street fights, but stay standing. I have only experienced haymakers in my two encounters. Hence I am trying to get some stats on assaults and robberies, specifically about the number of attackers.

I can tell you for sure that as a female in Australia you are more likely to be assaulted between the age of 15 to 24 (~42%), buy a family member (~42%) (or someone she knows in general ~81%), in a home (~58%). I can only assume that this would be a one on one situation. For a male in Australia you are more likely to be assaulted between the age of 15 to 24 (~40%), buy a stranger (~51%), not in a home (~70%). I can make no assumption based on the information. Hence I have asked the Australian Institute of Criminology for more information.

As a researcher I have a natural tendency to research

Regards,
Hello Graham, no it do not think it is arguing. I think that what exchanging point of view is all about.
I know it is very difficult to have proper data (I had data on knife crime in the UK and Scotland during the sword ban/putting “samaurai sword” to the dangerous weapons act proposal) and that what is true in Perth is not necessarily true in Windsor (Uk), non the less I think it is interesting to have those data.

That being said I think, one can make an educated guess as too how wise it is to go to the ground (or in how much trouble you are if you happened to be taken there)
For example Gun is something to take in consideration in some part of London, but has no real relevance in Windsor (where Bess and Phil the Greek have an adobe and where there more troops/police than there are inhabitants).

Those are the question I would ask
Is there is a lot a gun or weapons involved in crime
Is there a fair amount of occurrence when improvised weapon have been used
Is there any strongly bonded group of people band (i.e. hard core “foot supporters”, gangs etc) that you are likely to meet outside of your choosing? Member of the armed forces could be taken in account in that category, not really for the act of gratuitous violence which are not very likely (under our climate at least) but for the strong bound of a squad.

If the answer is resounding yes to one of those, It is very possible/not unlikely that a weapon will be present and /or that and other attackers will intervene after the fight has started and where a verbal/psychological fence is not likely to work.

Basically they take away all the safety we can have when fighting on the ground hence priority is to not get there and when there to get up as quick as possible, knowing that it may already be too late.

That being said, as Michael pointed out, it is a trade off. If someone put you to the ground; you are likely to get it, even if that particular situation ground fighting would have been safe. So our do not take me down at all cost game need to be strong (hence the importance of striking, movements and training against take down).

Like all trade of, it may or may not be beneficial to everyone every where. Personally I think it is harder to make the “not going to the ground at all cost” strategy work. So doing it because it takes care of the worst case scenario is counter productive in cases where that worse case scenario is not very likely to happen.

phil
Ps sorry for armed forces personnel to be associated with hooligans and gangs but it is quite clear that touching one member of the squad , even if he behaved like a twat and deserved a slap (which is not a public matter but an internal squad affair), will bring retribution and immediate help from the remainder of the squad.

Last edited by philippe willaume : 08-31-2007 at 07:53 AM.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:06 AM   #181
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
until they hit the ground? You may be right. My point was that it's going to go to the ground so saying "you don't want to learn groundfighting if you're dealing with multiples" is misguided. That's when you're most likely to hit the mat so if you've never been down there...
No, I posted that video as a response to people who keep saying "Well, BJJ is good for one guy, but Aikido is good for 2" If Aikidoka have never trained in that matter, they'll be just as effective against 2 opponents as a BJJer.
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Old 09-30-2007, 09:28 AM   #182
darin
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Look at modern Yoseikan Budo, they have gone even further in this direction. But I am sure that Mochizuki Kancho would have easily overcome his son or any of his students with their new methods of fighting. Hence, Mochizuki Kancho's techniques were better than Hiroo Mochizuki's techniques,

Regards,
As great as Mochizuki Minoru was I don't think he would have been able to compete against Hiro Mochizuki and the top YWF instructors. Yoshi used to tell me how Minoru tried to test his skills against Hiroo only to have Hiroo playfully tap his head (jabbing etc) with ease. And, about 10 years ago one of my students when visiting the Seifukai hombu witnessed Hiroo Sensei wipe the floor with the Seifukai instructors, again with ease.

If Mochizuki Minoru's techniques were superior to his son's then the YWF would be still doing them the same way.
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Old 09-30-2007, 10:33 AM   #183
darin
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
This is my definition of self defence. The person must be untrained or you are not defending yourself. If you "defend yourself" against a trained attacker, he will win, as he is attacking, and you are defending! If he is trained you must fight him (If you have not choice, my example would be defending my wife and kids). Therefore this comes under the branch of combat.

I recommend judo. If you can find a good judo instructor, who will teach you techniques and is not focused on competition, this will compliment anyone's Aikido very well. I can only imaging there are a few people like this in England. A lot of the old old great went through England (Tani), and some old great (Abe).

Regards,
Depends on the situation but I think you need both defense and attack. If your up against a trained attacker who is more skilled than you or someone who is armed then sometimes defense is all you have at least until you hopefully find an opening to attack or escape.
I'd say its easier to fight someone who doesn't know how to fight than it is to fight someone who does but in the end of the day it comes back to the situation and you have to do what ever you can to survive.

Judo is good. Also learn how to box and take some lessons in Kali and Escrima.
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Old 09-30-2007, 12:21 PM   #184
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Try this. Grab two untrained men in reasonable physical condition. Show them a 2 $100 notes in your wallet and put the wallet in a button down pocket. Tell them the money is theirs if they can take it. See how long you stay on your feet.
How fast can they run and for how long?
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Old 09-30-2007, 01:09 PM   #185
Aristeia
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

You achieve "sanctuary" when you hit the nearest pub.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 10-02-2007, 09:28 AM   #186
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
You achieve "sanctuary" when you hit the nearest pub.
In which case the bartender is the lucky stealer of your precious $'s.
win-win

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 10-02-2007, 07:39 PM   #187
Aikibu
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
In which case the bartender is the lucky stealer of your precious $'s.
win-win
Unless I was one of the Uke's in that Scenario.

I just offer to buy a round for everyone.

William Hazen
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Old 10-02-2007, 08:03 PM   #188
Aikibu
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Re: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu *not vs* Aikido

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
You achieve "sanctuary" when you hit the nearest pub.
If I was one of the Uke's in that Scenario.... I would just buy everyone a round or two with the money.

William Hazen
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