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Old 04-17-2002, 10:54 AM   #1
sam sneed
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aikido and kata

Aikido does not have kata as in Judo and as a beginner I want to know if that makes aikido easier or less difficult to grasp with respect to Judo?
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Old 04-17-2002, 11:02 AM   #2
akiy
 
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Re: aikido and kata

Quote:
Originally posted by sam sneed
Aikido does not have kata as in Judo
Actually, some forms of aikido such as Shodokan aikido as formulated by Tomiki sensei does have kata.

Also, others will argue that all styles of aikido have kata for beginners as you'll be learning a "set form" for each basic technique.
Quote:
and as a beginner I want to know if that makes aikido easier or less difficult to grasp with respect to Judo?
Personally, I think that's like asking which is more delicious -- an apple or an orange? I think such really depends on the person, the teacher, and the circumstances surrounding your learning process.

-- Jun

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Old 04-17-2002, 12:23 PM   #3
Edward
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Well, basically, Aikido training is kata.
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Old 04-17-2002, 04:39 PM   #4
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward
Well, basically, Aikido training is kata.
There are those who will argue against this idea (see the Sugano interview at http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...?ArticleID=947), but I agree. Sclerosis doesn't define kata; it is a springboard, not a straight-jacket.

I was reading somewhere (Judo forum on eBudo?) where someone had discovered Draeger's observation that Kano considered UCHIKOMI to be kata. The traditional "kata", NAGE NO KATA, etc, are largely neglected in judo's fulsome obeisance to the tournament, anyway. A loss, as Geesink patiently explained to the newly crestfallen Japanese when that Dutchman beat them these many years ago, that he capitalized on by training traditionally.

I think the way we train is kata--very similar to UCHIKOMI--the canon of testing requirements especially recalls the common conception of kata (see http://www.uga.edu/aikido/usaftest.htm). Read Draeger on how exploited kata (Judo Formal Techniques : A Complete Guide to Kodokan Randori No Kata). Everytime a teacher demostrates a technique, the practice is as kata, though it may not be a fixed entity as such, HENKA and KAESHI included.

Getting back to the original question--"Aikido does not have kata as in Judo and as a beginner I want to know if that makes aikido easier or less difficult to grasp with respect to Judo?"--I think that competition, which we lack for practical and philosophical reasons in aikido, affords judoka valuable insight into the execution of technique. And despite the artefacts of competition--watered down techniques, non-existent ZANSHIN, etc.--judoka are not allowed the complacency we see in aikido regarding the efficacy of technique. If it doesn't work in judo, your uke doesn't fall. Or rather, uke becomes nage and uke DOES fall.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 04-17-2002, 05:53 PM   #5
deepsoup
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don_Modesto

And despite the artefacts of competition--watered down techniques, non-existent ZANSHIN, etc.--judoka are not allowed the complacency we see in aikido regarding the efficacy of technique. If it doesn't work in judo, your uke doesn't fall. Or rather, uke becomes nage and uke DOES fall.
Hi Don,

Interesting points, thanks.

On a slightly defensive note, from over here in the Shodokan corner: I think what you describe as the "artefacts of competition" are rather the artefacts of focussing on (randori) competition to the exclusion of everything else.

It isn't so much that judo (in many, but thankfully by no means all, dojos) includes competition, its rather that it excludes kata.

Regards
Sean
x

Last edited by deepsoup : 04-17-2002 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 04-17-2002, 06:09 PM   #6
Chuck Clark
 
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Our curriculum within the Jiyushinkai contains sotai kata renshu (two person practice). These kata were originally designed by Tomiki Sensei with the help of Ohba Sensei. Tsunako Miyake Sensei also had a hand in the process. These kata are designed to teach principle from kihon no kata to the principles of various timings and strategies. These kata are rich in layers of knowledge for us. After many years of practice there are still unending lessons to be learned.

Kata give us learning sets to help our practice. They also give us a way to preserve methods of teaching and the heart of our system.

Kata are, of course, pre-arranged and in the beginning stages are somewhat stiff and "dance-like" at times. However, under the proper instructors (people that have made the journey to live kata) and lots of quality practice kata becomes as real as any other training with strong katachi coming from "life and death" intent from each partner.

Along with our kata training, we also practice a very strong type of randori (similar to tadashi judo randori) that enables us to practice henka and kaeshi waza without one person having to do a technique "wrong" on purpose as some practitioners do.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 04-18-2002, 07:12 PM   #7
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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Kata in Aikido

I have been to Seminars with Seiichi Sugano Sensei, very nice man, takes a turn with everyone at the seminar, so everyone gets to go with sensei.

As for kata.

Saito Sensei has numerous drills with jo or Bokken, as does John Stevens Sensei ( a student of Shirata Sensei) and valuable ideas of training drills help to enlighten bodily movements with these drills, which are sometimes called kata?

Actually ... any set group of movements practiced over, and over, and over, and over, could be interpreted as kata? ( but they are not)

Problem with trying to understand Kata?

What are you doing, why are you doing it, and how does it apply to a real situation of defender/attacker?

If you figure that out .... then kata is quite valuable.
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Old 04-18-2002, 07:27 PM   #8
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Kata in Aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Actually ... any set group of movements practiced over, and over, and over, and over, could be interpreted as kata? ( but they are not)
Actually this may be true. However, that group of movements may not be a GOOD kata. It takes thorough understanding of the subject, lots of thought and preparation to put together a kata that stands the test of time.

There's a saying that "what happens in kata may never happen in practical real action, however, what happens in kata prepares you to make the intuitive, creative decisions to survive real combat.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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