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Old 09-09-2007, 04:14 PM   #301
Aristeia
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

heh didn't Gi and Ben Holmes go round on gogo a couple of years ago. I'm not sure it's entirely the same technique.

Weekend was awesome, good stuff from Rigan and we had a blast at the comp (although I didn't compete as recovering from hand surgery). One of my guys we've been waiting to unleash for a while on the comp circuit took out the White Heavyweight div. He spent a total of 2 mins 18 secs on the mat to do it.

I'm still a decent distance of purple so if John were to grade me to it I would run screaming from the room. Thankfully that's not likely in the near future, although my co club runner Glen can't be far imo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-09-2007, 04:34 PM   #302
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Hi folks,

Can I please ask everyone to move personal discussions not pertaining to the thread discussion on-hand to private messaging or private e-mail?

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Old 09-11-2007, 10:53 AM   #303
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Thanks guys for the fill in on the differences. I think you are correct, there is so much growth in BJJ now due to the extreme testing it gets in the ring/octogon/whatever. Rubber guard is sooo wierd...don't think my knees could do that anymore...

B,
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:16 PM   #304
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

It's actually surprising that rubber guard doesn't take as much flexibility as you think. I"m not saying I use it a bunch but I've certainly threatened it from time to time and it's safe to say flexibility is not my strong point.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:32 PM   #305
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I regularly use it, and it is a big part of my game. Like anything else, it takes lots of practice. Plus one needs to be pretty familiar with all the positions that it connects too. Bravo's book does a very good job of explaining how rubber guard-half guard-butterfly all work together. I don't use butterfly much, but I transition from rubber to half freely.

Rubber guard, x-guard, de la Riva, all of Marcello's new stuff with platas...BJJ, or rather submission grappling, is very much a constantly growing and evolving thing.

Keith Lee
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:42 PM   #306
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

You know, my closed guard game sucks, but I usually have better luck working from half to rubber to butterfly. I find I have better luck sinking into Mission Control when the other person is trying to hit me rather than just passing -- and I am the opposite of flexible.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:09 PM   #307
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

It is trivial to take a picture of myself doing any bjj movement, then use the appropriate judo name, which is usually just a description of what you are doing. That does not mean it is in judo. Likewise finding old pictures from 50+ years ago.

What is in judo is what the majority of judoka practice now. I can't say the majority practice anything like a gogoplata, hell most bjjers don't practice it.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:27 AM   #308
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

good point Don. Otherwise we could claim Aikido has BJJ based on those pics of O'Sensei choking.

Also if Judo and BJJ had the same stuff you would expect no difference in how they perform in sports events.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-12-2007, 02:24 AM   #309
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
good point Don. Otherwise we could claim Aikido has BJJ based on those pics of O'Sensei choking.
I just say Aikido has chokes...

I will agree that tactics and strategies have caused a divergence. I will clarify my point in that Helio Gracie invented nothing new. He is a great jujutsuka, but Rorion claims that his father changed and modified the techniques into something new. All of the techniques in the original syllabus of Gracie Jiu Jitsu can be found in judo, although not necessarily in the syllabus of the Kodokan.

The fact is, Kano took the strength out of Jujutsu in formulating Judo, so all techniques were based on leverage, and Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort, not Helio Gracie. I will reiterate that Helio Gracie is a great martial artist.

Indead MMA and UFC has changed the way these techniques are used in the ring or octagon.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-12-2007, 04:49 AM   #310
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
The fact is, Kano took the strength out of Jujutsu in formulating Judo, so all techniques were based on leverage, and Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort, not Helio Gracie. I will reiterate that Helio Gracie is a great martial artist.

Indead MMA and UFC has changed the way these techniques are used in the ring or octagon.

Regards,
Helio didn't invent BJJ

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:01 AM   #311
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Helio didn't invent BJJ
Is that a statement of fact?

If so that is my point. I didn't make my point correctly before, I was talking about what Helio Gracie did with Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:26 PM   #312
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

It is semantics for sure to say that anyone invented anything. What I think they did do is breath "life" back into something that was pretty much dead or dying...that is...the art of jujitsu.

They did it in such a way that it could be reasonably acceptable for modern people to practice without hurting one another.

From that we see a re-birth in Submission grappling, catch as catch can, greco-roman, among other forms of unarmed and competitive forms of martial art.

BJJ or GJJ is separate and distinct from judo, aikido or any of the other DO arts the emerged in the late 1800 to mid 1900s. Not so much in the techniques...but the paradigm of how you look at and apply those techniques.

BJJ has it's criticisms, my MMA instructor is a good one to demonstrate the how the parochial mindset in BJJ can get you in trouble. There are many things that BJJ does that will identify you as a BJJer in a grappling situation...many have learned to defeat or exploit those things....guys like Eddie Bravo are proving it.

What is for sure, the Gracie's changed how we train in jujitsu. That cannot be disputed.

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Old 09-13-2007, 06:06 AM   #313
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
It is semantics for sure to say that anyone invented anything. What I think they did do is breath "life" back into something that was pretty much dead or dying...that is...the art of jujitsu.

They did it in such a way that it could be reasonably acceptable for modern people to practice without hurting one another.

From that we see a re-birth in Submission grappling, catch as catch can, greco-roman, among other forms of unarmed and competitive forms of martial art.

BJJ or GJJ is separate and distinct from judo, aikido or any of the other DO arts the emerged in the late 1800 to mid 1900s. Not so much in the techniques...but the paradigm of how you look at and apply those techniques.

BJJ has it's criticisms, my MMA instructor is a good one to demonstrate the how the parochial mindset in BJJ can get you in trouble. There are many things that BJJ does that will identify you as a BJJer in a grappling situation...many have learned to defeat or exploit those things....guys like Eddie Bravo are proving it.

What is for sure, the Gracie's changed how we train in jujitsu. That cannot be disputed.
Very well said!

Of course the judo guys will never agree with you, it's just bad judo right?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:32 AM   #314
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
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Very well said!

Of course the judo guys will never agree with you, it's just bad judo right?


I still run into 'That's just Judo' on the mat. Like Mike, I no longer talk about BJJ on the judo mat - partially because my jits isn't that great to begin with
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Old 09-13-2007, 01:22 PM   #315
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post


I still run into 'That's just Judo' on the mat. Like Mike, I no longer talk about BJJ on the judo mat - partially because my jits isn't that great to begin with
It usually goes like this for me.

We finally get around to doing some matwork in judo, after the match someone will ask "Why are you so good at matwork, when do you practice?" I respond, "Oh I do that 3-4 days a week". Then they ask where. I mention a bjj club. They say "But why, it's just all ripped off judo anyways.". Then I point out I'm better on the mat then they are, and argument begins.

- Don
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Old 09-13-2007, 02:16 PM   #316
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
It usually goes like this for me.

We finally get around to doing some matwork in judo, after the match someone will ask "Why are you so good at matwork, when do you practice?" I respond, "Oh I do that 3-4 days a week". Then they ask where. I mention a bjj club. They say "But why, it's just all ripped off judo anyways.". Then I point out I'm better on the mat then they are, and argument begins.
There's a 'parable' about falling into holes that your post reminds me of

http://www.seniorsapprove.com/autobiography.html

Don't ask, don't tell isn't just for the US army
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:02 PM   #317
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

In Germany I have a "arch rival" in GI submission fighter. A 45 Year Old 5 Dan, former Olympian Judoka.

I have a wonderful video that I should post of our first encounter a few years back when we matched up as white belts. Me with a couple of months of BJJ and my years of Aikido training, him with no BJJ and all his years of Judo.

Needless to say, he basically "ipponed" me to the ground, dominated me for the whole match...but had no clue how to submit me, so I laid there, countered, and tried to escape. Eventually I did, slipping out the back door into the rear mount for rear naked choke.

Out next match a year later, I walked up, shook hands, got the Shite, then went straight for my knees to fight him. He asked what I was doing...I said, well you ain't gonna get the takedown this time!

When then proceeded to fight and have fun....I forget who won that one now!

Anyway, my point is...He'd cream me in Judo rules, yet we are equals when it come to BJJ and submission fighitng.

BJJ and judo while related, are different enough to make a huge difference in strategy and approach.

Most BJJ guys I know are getting with strong Judo guys these days to learn how to improve takedowns...same with greco roman guys.

As guys get better at BJJ, you have to develop an edge. I see takedowns becoming more and more important in determining the outcome of the fight as more and more people get better and nullifying the positional advantage on the ground.

Watch the UFC over the years...you see the migration in what is working follow the same patern.

My MMA instructor in Germany, crazy as it sounds believes it is only a matter of time before Yoga will enter into the equation taking things almost full circle as have core strength, control, and flexibility, as being the leading reason for someone having an edge.

Discussions with Mike Sigman and Rob also seem to gravitate to what they call internal skills as also giving an edge to things in MMA in the future.

It is a wonderful time to see Martial arts developing and mature! A far cry from where we were 20 years ago!

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Old 09-28-2007, 04:57 AM   #318
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Usually, I avoid these kinds of threads. They seem not to be that ... But what the hell, I have time on my hand, at the moment, and avoiding questions is never an answer.
So, here are my limping thoughts, pure specualtions:

I am sure that BJJ is like any martial art: people having fun together in training, enjoying their mutual improvements, and exploring the intricate "chess game" of friendly battle. So, no reason to immediately assume the need for self defense brutality. I prefer to think of it as something in the dojo, and not in the street. Most martial artists don't pick fights in streets.

So, in the dojo, then:
To me, BJJ is a lot like judo's newaza, ground work. Skilled judoka are very good at it, because they practice it a lot. BJJ athletes, too, maybe even more so, since that's about all they do.
A weakness of aikido, in comparison, is that we practice so much - standing, seated, weapons, several attackers, all kinds of attacks... We cannot be as skilled on any of those parts, as somebody can when specializing.
Therefore, the aikidoka should try not to get down on ground, but stay up, where the BJJ athelete is not as trained. Of course, that's easier said than done

Also, the techniques applied should be those applicable at a bigger distance than the one normal to grappling - a wrist technique on an extended hand, and so on. The timing should be early, not waiting for any kind of clinch.
And one should be very wary about trying a seated pinning. It is very difficult to pin a judoka, and surely also a BJJ athlete. On the other hand, we hardly practice standing-up pinnings at all.
Maybe the best strategy would be standing-up throwing techniques only, until the class is over? Such as kotegaeshi, and kokyunage on a sankyo grip, and other throws that are initiated at a distance on an extended arm.

Occasionally, we do some suwari-sumo, newaza, or what you want to call it, in my dojo. I try to find the aiki way of doing it, and find it to be very rewarding training, indeed. I recommend it. Aikido is a set of principles, not certain techniques or fighting forms, so these principles can be applied to any style of martial art, modifying it - and, I would like to think, improving it.

Generally speaking, there is no martial art so superior that a beginner of it can defeat an advanced practicioner of another art. So, the one who is the best at his or her art will most probably succeed.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 09-28-2007, 05:44 AM   #319
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
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Generally speaking, there is no martial art so superior that a beginner of it can defeat an advanced practicioner of another art.
Define beginner and define advanced....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-28-2007, 06:20 AM   #320
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Define beginner and define advanced....
Is that really necessary?

Well, let's say somebody who has trained for three months, and somebody who has trained for five years. Whatever

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Old 09-28-2007, 07:21 AM   #321
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
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Is that really necessary?

Well, let's say somebody who has trained for three months, and somebody who has trained for five years. Whatever
I agree that if you play by that arts rules, a judo guy will be at a huge disadvantage in a boxing match, etc. But that is where mma type sparing comes in. It allows you to actually see how your skills fair against another person in a very open ruleset that allows all kinds of skills to shine. Then the question becomes, why can a 3 month boxer beat a 5 year tkd guy in this ruleset? (just pulling an example out of thin air)

- Don
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Old 09-28-2007, 09:30 AM   #322
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Then the question becomes, why can a 3 month boxer beat a 5 year tkd guy in this ruleset? (just pulling an example out of thin air)
I have not seen it happen, so I have to answer in principle.

In principle, such things can be explained by the rules used. The one whom the rules fit the best, has a significant advantage that can exceed the advantage of longer training.

Of course, I mean both the rules of the match in questions, and the rules that each combattant is most experienced with.

One interesting consequence of it is that the martial art with the less limiting rules should benefit. Aikido is way up there

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Old 09-28-2007, 10:02 AM   #323
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Hi Stefan,

My experiences disagrees somewhat. I think the MA that contains frequent training with active resistance has the edge. If both MAs have this, then it comes down to the rule set...I'd probably give the one with the least restrictive rule set (for resistance training) the edge.

There can be notable exceptions however...but I don't think I can give specifics here.

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-28-2007, 11:01 AM   #324
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
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I have not seen it happen, so I have to answer in principle.

In principle, such things can be explained by the rules used. The one whom the rules fit the best, has a significant advantage that can exceed the advantage of longer training.

Of course, I mean both the rules of the match in questions, and the rules that each combattant is most experienced with.

One interesting consequence of it is that the martial art with the less limiting rules should benefit. Aikido is way up there
I have seen it. I've seen guys with much less training take out much more experienced opponents. They do it by taking them out of their element. I've seen guys with 0 MMA training, walk into the ring and destroy guys who have spent years training just for mma. Why did they win? Strength, aggression, pain tolerance, etc. Look at the begining UFC for good examples. Nobody was training for the UFC, so nobody was prepared. What mattered was not the rules (they were almost non-existant) but if you could force your opponent to play your game. If you can do that, then you win.

This is the area bjj used to excel at. They can make people play their game. People are wiser now, and it is tougher. This is why I'm a fan of judo, most people will clinch with you without hesitation, then you throw them and have your way with them.

You speak of rules, yet refer to aikido as having no rules. While this is true in theory, in practice if you look, this is not true. Can you eye gouge your partner? Can you break his arm? Can you kick him in the groin? If you look, truly without sparing there are more rules in what you can't do. If rules are truly the limiting factor, then it is an easy fix to make the best martial art. I of course do not believe this, I think it is the method of practice, not the competition rules that make a good fighter. judo, boxing, mauy thai, some karates, bjj, etc all have great methods of practice that lead to very useful and quickly developed (years instead of decades) skills.

- Don
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Old 09-28-2007, 12:10 PM   #325
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MMA etc.

DonMagee, I agree with you more than I guess you would expect

What you say about "inexperienced" contestants winning against experienced ones, is an example of what I tried to introduce. There is no system of techniques, no martial art per se, that guarantees victory. As Einstein told us, it's all relative

About making the opponent play your game, Musashi spoke about this in his Go Rin no Sho. He talked about rhythm - how to make the opponent follow your rhythm, and how you should not follow his, and so on.
The mental aspects are of vast importance in any martial art - also in between them.

About rules, I did not say that aikido has none, not at all. I said "less limiting", by which I mean that aikido is a martial art where all kinds of attacks and situations are trained. Of course, that is also the problem: there is not enough time to get good at all of it.

But if we really look for an optimal martial art, I believe that specialization is not the key. A wide "curriculum" and the ability to adapt will prevail. But that takes time.

Stefan Stenudd
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