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Old 09-24-2007, 01:27 PM   #51
mriehle
 
mriehle's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido
Location: Stockton, CA
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 320
United_States
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Re: Aggressive sensei or high expectations?

Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote: View Post
As you get older, you train someone to take your place as my Shihan did with me.
Yep. I see this as the ultimate solution.

Unfortunately, my school is small enough that my remaining yudansha student is 15 years older than I am. The teenager went off to college.

Still, I just had four students get their first kyu on Saturday. They're junior students (River Rats), so they're up for their Jr. Shodan (not the same as an adult shodan), still...

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Old 09-24-2007, 02:33 PM   #52
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Re: Aggressive sensei or high expectations?

Hi Rock,

This is one of the reasons I don't want to teach. I find that idea scary. I'm not saying it isn't needed sometimes, just that I don't want to be the person to make that judgement. I have accidentally hurt and injured people in the past...It still shapes how I train now, I feel so badly about it. I don't know how I would deal with it if I did it in training, on purpose.

Off the mat under real threat is something else...some idiot steps up, you do what you can. Not good for them...oh well.

But in training is something different. I'd have to feel I had a REAL GOOD reason to break someone.

Best,
Ron (The more I train, the more I respect the good teachers out there, and the less I want to do it)
Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote: View Post
Break them. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil; for I am the meanest SOB in the valley.

As you get older, you train someone to take your place as my Shihan did with me. Then, you teach them some "special" techniques that you keep behind for use with such nasty people. I guess there is still a place for "secret" techniques.

Rock

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:16 AM   #53
Rocky Izumi
Dojo: GUST Aikido Club
Location: Salwa, Kuwait
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 381
Kuwait
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Re: Aggressive sensei or high expectations?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Rock,

This is one of the reasons I don't want to teach. I find that idea scary. I'm not saying it isn't needed sometimes, just that I don't want to be the person to make that judgement. I have accidentally hurt and injured people in the past...It still shapes how I train now, I feel so badly about it. I don't know how I would deal with it if I did it in training, on purpose.

Off the mat under real threat is something else...some idiot steps up, you do what you can. Not good for them...oh well.

But in training is something different. I'd have to feel I had a REAL GOOD reason to break someone.

Best,
Ron (The more I train, the more I respect the good teachers out there, and the less I want to do it)
Agreed on all counts. My take on it is that the Shihan-Dai, Chief Instructor, has the ultimate responsibility on the mats, no matter who hurts whom for whatever reason and in whatever manner. Many times I have had to take a student to the hospital emergency and sit there all night and go to work the next day. If there is a bully on the mats, that is also the Shihan-Dai's responsibility to deal with it. The students shouldn't have to. It is also the responsibility of the Shihan-Dai to know how far to take someone whether it is for stretching someone's limits or keeping them in their comfort zone or showing someone what they are doing to someone else. It is also the Shihan-Dai's responsibility to take Ukemi for a strong and rough beginner so that others don't get injured and to show that person that one doesn't have to be rough to be effective (how I've often received a lot of my injuries).

As for bullies, I figure what goes around comes around. There is always someone bigger and stronger and nastier. Sometimes the Shihan-Dai has to be that nastier person. I don't like doing it, never did like doing it since it meant taking as much as giving and being "unbreakable" (even though in private I've had to nurse some bad injuries afterwards).

Breaking the bullying habit is a difficult thing to do and if it is done physically, it is often counterproductive. It can just make them into more of a bully. You have to figure out why someone is being a bully, even it if is an instructor. If someone is being a bully just because they want to express their power over others, then breaking them physically is counterproductive. Being gentle with them and not letting them win no matter what often works better. That is much more frustrating for the bully and being unbreakable yourself eventually allows you to dissipate the need for expressing power. That is even moreso if the bully is an instructor.

If the bully is being so to establish a pecking order, then being broken physically by a lower rank that is physically more able can have good results.

If a bully is being so because of frustration, pain, or other mental or physical interference and is not a normal condition for the bully, then confrontation with their acts is often the most productive approach.

And, if the bully is being a bully because they are scared, then you have to help them control the fear through learning.

The biggest problem I find of dealing with bullying by physically breaking them is that you can easily end up becoming the bully yourself. The counter-terrorist who fights terrorists using terror ends up becoming a terrorist themselves. To avoid that, you have to ensure that you always remember intent and choose a method that reduces the amount of physical punishment to a minimum. You have to know why you are doing it and use all the tools you have rather than resorting to the easiest one. It works best when you really can't do the bullying yourself because you physically can't. You suck it up and do the physical stuff and take care of your wounds later, knowing that you will never ever do it again because you physically can't take it any more. It has to hurt you physically as much as it hurts the bully so that you don't ever want to do it again. That is why I like the approach that you just keep giving back whatever they give you and not giving up until they stop first and ask for quarter. Just don't show the pain and keep going.

Rock
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Old 09-25-2007, 03:27 AM   #54
Nikopol
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 96
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Re: Aggressive sensei or high expectations?

I myself will accept a little added pressure because I trust my sensei and have been given no reason not to. That is the key perhaps. This trust is absolute, yet at the same time it is conditional. I am talking about a very experienced Senpai who releases pressure after a tap, but may perhaps reapply pressure in another direction or the same direction to make a point. Be assured that I am keen to the possibility of damage and would not tolerate it.

Reading these posts, about the tap being sancrosanct, and should the nage second-guess the tap, made me think of the situation involving another kind of pressure between a man and woman, where no means no, though the man may wish to second guess this... and continue to apply pressure. Ultimately it depends on the relationship between the two and the ultimate conduct of the man... or, we hope, gentleman.
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Old 09-25-2007, 06:05 AM   #55
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
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Re: Aggressive sensei or high expectations?

Rock, for years I read your posts on the aikido newsletter. It's very good to have you here now. Thanks for teaching us...

Best,
Ron (hoping to share keiko one day)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:19 PM   #56
Rocky Izumi
Dojo: GUST Aikido Club
Location: Salwa, Kuwait
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 381
Kuwait
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Re: Aggressive sensei or high expectations?

Thanks Ron,

I appreciate the vote of confidence. I know it gets tougher as we age more. I'm doing modified practice while nursing two broken fingers and a damaged foot right now. It is taking longer and longer to get back into "normal" condition these days. Sooner or later I will have to take on a younger kid to do my dirty work for me who is full of spit and vinegar and teach them how to do this job. Trying right now but few seem to have the spirit or technical ability. And I can't really afford to support them right now.

Rock
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