Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-20-2007, 01:02 PM   #1
Niccolo Gallio
Dojo: KI AIKIDO Center, Firenze
Location: Firenze
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14
Italy
Offline
check my dojo's monthly fee

Hi everyone.
I'm writing this to have some opinions on my dojo's monthly fee:
before i go on let me say that i'm totally satisfied with the quality and quantity of the istruction and practice i get.
But the cost of the monthly fee seems to me a little steep.. we practice three times per week for a total of 5 hrs 1/2 in a relatively large tatami in decent conditions, the rest rooms are decent too and sufficently clean.. we are hosted in a gym that has also weights and some machinery.. the gym staff is not particularly friendly but not hostile either, while my dojo fellows are ok to great folks. for our monthly fee we are only given permission to use just the tatami and the restrooms/showers.
the fee is 60 euros (circa 84 usd) per month.
I'd like to know how much yo kind folks pay, especially those training into commercial facilities..
thanks

niccolo'

Proud member of Ki Aikido Center Dojo in Firenze under the guidance of Mario Peloni Sensei. http://www.kiaikidocenter.it
Come join us!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2007, 01:14 PM   #2
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

More training time would be nice...but other than that, probably not outrageous. See if you can get more time for the same price...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2007, 02:31 PM   #3
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

A lot of what makes a reasonable fee depends on local factors. A reasonable fee in a large city like Chicago would be considered outrageous just 2 1/2 hours away in the smallish Michigan town I teach in. Your best bet is to take a look at the fees for other martial arts in YOUR area. Especially those in similar settings and with similar schedules.

With the info you've provided I'd agree with Ron that it doesn't sound too over the top.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2007, 08:18 PM   #4
John Ruhl
Dojo: Cleveland Aikikai
Location: Cleveland, OH
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 39
United_States
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

For what it's worth, check out this poll in 2005 and the associated discussion:

http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=286

(and in the discussion Jun points to a similar poll 2 years earlier).

-John
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2007, 09:28 PM   #5
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,224
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

I was always told that the monthly fee = the teacher's rank x 10.
So a 2nd dan is $20/hr., a 3rd dan $30/hr, etc. So a 6th dan instructor can reasonably charge $60 monthly dues and for seminars, can command $60/hr.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2007, 11:33 PM   #6
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,479
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

I think it's all regional. The amount you suggest would be considered a bargain in many places, yet outrageous in others. The important thing is whether you think you're getting your money's worth.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 12:13 AM   #7
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
I was always told that the monthly fee = the teacher's rank x 10.
So a 2nd dan is $20/hr., a 3rd dan $30/hr, etc. So a 6th dan instructor can reasonably charge $60 monthly dues and for seminars, can command $60/hr.

In gassho,

Mark
Mark,
The fact that you state that you were "always told" that indicates that it was the case for some time. I would say that is dated info. I couldn't even keep my doors open if that was the going rate standard. I charge $100 / hr for private lessons, although it's possible to buy a six lesson set for $450 which comes to $75 / hr. Most of the senior instructors I know would normally get $100 / hour if they did a class at another dojo. The going rate for a 6th Dan in the ASU is $1500 for a weekend seminar with an average of ten hours of class time.

The national average for martial arts dues is between $120 and $140 at this point with Aikido bringing up the rear on the rates. Aikido Dojos with professional instructors are usually just a bit below the average for martial arts schools and those with part time instructors are often substantially below that national average. Our dues at my school are between $100 and $120 (there are some options available in our dues structure).

Regardless, it's still cheap training compared to other fields. Try getting top notch instruction in much of anything for less than $100 / hour.A Rokudan has spent 25 - 30 years getting there. What field can you think of where you could get that level of expertise for that?

On those rare occasions when I bother to do private Defensive Tactics jobs, I get substantially more than I do for my Aikido ($1000 / day) and my place in the DT world is no where what my position in the Aikido world is.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 01:43 AM   #8
Niccolo Gallio
Dojo: KI AIKIDO Center, Firenze
Location: Firenze
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14
Italy
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Ok, thanks for pointing me to the poll and, by the way, my Sensei is 7th dan so I assume my fee is correct..
now, if only i could get some machinery time and sauna for the same price.. ;-)

Proud member of Ki Aikido Center Dojo in Firenze under the guidance of Mario Peloni Sensei. http://www.kiaikidocenter.it
Come join us!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 06:40 AM   #9
PhilMyKi
Dojo: Seibukan, Milton Keynes
Location: At Work unless I am at the DOJO!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 111
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Hi,

Before I go on I will point out my dojo charges 20 GBP / c. 28 EUR / c. 38 USD for unlimited training (upto 7 1/2 hrs a week) per month - very cheap.

I trained at your dojo whilst I was in Florence a few weeks ago. I approached the receptionist and thought she was joking when she listed the charges even after I explained I will be training for that night only. I thought the facilities were great, but not good enough for the quoted cost. I was unable to train with Ruglione Sensei as he was teaching abroad, but I found my welcome, in the most part, was good (albeit one individual was a little patronising).

But as Florence is an expensive city, I think the costs have more to do with overheads (that is a big unit you have there) and the fees allow you to do all the other activities the dojo offers (dancing, judo, karate ... ...)

Vorsprung durch Aikido!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 07:39 AM   #10
PhilMyKi
Dojo: Seibukan, Milton Keynes
Location: At Work unless I am at the DOJO!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 111
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Actually now I clicked on your link I think I went to another dojo, I went to the Ki Dojo on Viale Corsica, which had costs in line with yours - must be geography. Like I said Florence is an expensive city.

Vorsprung durch Aikido!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 07:57 AM   #11
ivobear
 
ivobear's Avatar
Dojo: ivrea (torino)
Location: ivrea (torino)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
Italy
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Quote:
Niccolo Gallio wrote: View Post
the fee is 60 euros (circa 84 usd) per month.
Ciao Nicolo' ... I am also from italy (ivrea near turin), my dojo (aikikai Ivrea) with 5th dan sensei, ask us 50 euros for 6 hour by week ... a little bit hight in my opinion. I know that it depends from many factor, number of practices, place, people density and so on ... but the dojo of Fujimoto sensei in Milan (7th dan aikikai shihan), asks 50 euros monthly fee for more then 10 hours by week (..look aikikaimilano..) in a place dedicate only for the Aikido dojo. It is also possible to have some discount (family or more moths payment). I do not think that milan is less expensive then florence ...
Well it is possible to pay a little bit more to maintain alive a dojo with economic problem, but some time the gym structures and some time sensei clime have too hight price ... it is difficult to get the right price, but in my opinion 60 euros in italy is a little bit hight.

Ciao ciao (bye bye ), ivobear.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 08:25 AM   #12
nagoyajoe
 
nagoyajoe's Avatar
Dojo: Kokikai Hombu Shushinkan Dojo, Nagoya
Location: Nagoya, Japan
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 64
Japan
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Very often instructors inflate their prices based on rank and not skill…or even worse on who their teachers are even though their own skills are not so hot; however, your fees seem reasonable, especially from a Japanese perspective (as I have lived and trained in Japan for a while).
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 10:24 AM   #13
rulemaker
Dojo: Aikido Philippines
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 128
Philippines
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Aikido is affordable in the Philippines (www.aikido-philippines.com). Most of our dojos charge US$15-$20 monthly fees for 12 to 16 sessions, lasting an hour and a half per session.

When Aikikai Hombu Dojo Shihans visits us for weekend seminars we charge our members US$2-4 per session.

I would like to know how much does it cost to host a US based Shihan (8th Dan level) for a weekend seminar?

How much does it cost in other countries other than Japan to host an Aikikai Hombu Dojo Shihan for a weekend seminar?

Thanks!

Mel
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 10:56 AM   #14
Will Prusner
 
Will Prusner's Avatar
Dojo: AikiSpirit Dojo
Location: Coral Gables, Florida
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 196
United_States
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

The cost doesn't sound over the top... and in my opinion, quality instruction in Aikido (or anything worthwhile, for that matter) + cameraderie w/ good people on a similar path = Priceless.

I know that even though I live in a psuedo-major city, Miami, Florida, I am still grateful that I have found a Dojo, Instructor and group of folks who I feel comfortable training with.

W.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 02:27 PM   #15
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

I am in the San Francisco Bay Area, one of the most expensive places to live in the US. I pay $80 us/month for a total of four aikido classes, one tai chi class and one energy awareness classes in a week. My sensei is 5th dan and he takes all of our testing fees below shodan, our belts, new mats & upkeep out of those fees, as well as paying the rent on the space we rent from the ballet school, and "not noticing" if we have to let tuition slide for a month or so.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 02:42 PM   #16
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,212
United_States
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

I pay $65(US)/month and if I can't afford it, other arrangements can be made to do some work around the place. Granted, it's a Shinto shrine so there might be a little more upkeep available than other dojo.
I think it's a hard industry to put a dollar value on. So much can vary from dojo to dojo and when you include the potentially huge cost of running and maintaining a place where people could potentially get hurt (insurance costs can be very high from what I can tell), I can see why some places cost quite a bit more than others.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 03:16 PM   #17
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Lets see...I have a 1kyu with 10 years of experience who charges $14 per month for a total of 8 lessons 1 1/2 hours each.

Infact, that seems to be the going rate pretty much.
The Thai boxing is 3k forint (just 500 forint more, but 3 times a week), the wing chun is $14 per month...

A 4th dan in Sopron is the same per month as it is on the east side of the country with my 1kyu...so that gives a person the idea of the going rates in matial arts in Hungary.

Our seminar (4 day) with a 4th, 3rd, 2nd dan cost around $20 if I remember correctly.

But it varies, Hungary cant charge more, the people cant afford it despite the E.U. status. (maybe the westerners in Budapest can...but Budapest does not represent Hungary by a long shot. i.e. the whole country voted for a Prime Minster that didnt make it, Budapest voted for the guy who is in office, and he got it. Just threw that in there to show the difference in mentality...Im not Hungarian, so I dont vote - and Im not into politics anyway)

Peace

dAlen

- by the way Niccolo, all these European flags look the same - you and I have the same colors, just the stripes pointing in a different direction. I thought you were a Hungarian at first.

Last edited by dalen7 : 09-21-2007 at 03:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 05:32 PM   #18
gregg block
 
gregg block's Avatar
Location: bethlehem PA
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 127
United_States
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Often in life we get what we pay for. I first shop for quality then look at price. The same strategy should be used in finding a good dojo. There's a lot of crap out there. so buyer beware!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2007, 06:19 PM   #19
Ecosamurai
 
Ecosamurai's Avatar
Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

I think most people who have (legitimate) questions about a dojo fee usually don't know too much about running a dojo and the costs involved, we usually do a little better than breaking even but occasionally I take a head count on a particular night because I think we may have lost money on that night. We charge 6 for 2 hrs (5 concession) and a monthly fee of 40 (32 concession) so about 80USD a month for two nights a week training. That's as cheap as I can make it too without it being a waste of time and a financial headache.

"I was always told that the monthly fee = the teacher's rank x 10.
So a 2nd dan is $20/hr., a 3rd dan $30/hr, etc. So a 6th dan instructor can reasonably charge $60 monthly dues and for seminars, can command $60/hr."

If I only charged 20USD per month we'd be closed by the end of that month. We're starting a monthly seminar series up that will mean inviting guest instructors but often at first it means I'll be teaching for 4-6hrs, 20USD per hour (with an attendance of say 10 people for a first attempt) would again ensure that we only had that first seminar and I would have to pay the rent shortfall out of my pocket.

FWIW I do not nor have I ever received any personal payment for teaching aikido, though I have on a number of occasions paid out of my own pocket when we couldn't manage the bills, effectively paying money in order to teach others. I doubt I'm the only one to have done this sort of thing either.

I don't think it's wrong to question what you're paying for something, especially given the number of fraudsters and mcdojos around, I just think that in the end we all have to pay for our training, either in sweat, tears, blood or yes... money. If a nidan or sandan has to charge what a rokudan charges in the next town, well that's just the way it is. If they were next door to each other on the other hand, well. Then you might well ask legitimate questions

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2007, 09:12 AM   #20
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

I think by formula of ---dan times ten for the fee structure, we run into some time old problems of ranking, gender, racial inequity,boring, etc......

and her's another example, why wouldn't a person just run out and join an organization that ranks more quickly (which some people I know have done) so you can get more acknowledgement and money . I personally chose to follow the path that I've been on, ranking very slowly relative to others in exchange for excellent training and some obscurity.when students can achieve a Sandan in 6 years of training, which was somewhere around my shodan, ranking doesn't neccessarily mean quality, that is for sure.
I believe 'what the market will bare' is the national economic model and I can do better in that model than trying to break down all other codes and formulas. So I charge what I can which is $85.00 a month for several classes a week and $100.00 an hour for private lessons. Having said, that I taught my first year independently for donations only and I accepted food, flowers or finances.

as to the original poster, what do u intend to do with the information you get here. are you going to object to the fee's or are you going to shop elsewhere, or....?

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2007, 10:30 AM   #21
Niccolo Gallio
Dojo: KI AIKIDO Center, Firenze
Location: Firenze
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14
Italy
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Thanks to everyone.
Miss Smith, I do not intend to "do" anything in particular with the informations gathered from this topic, I'm just asking to be more, well, informed.. thanks for your comment/opinion/story.
I have a problem in understanding one of your sentences (due to my english understanding problems, i suppose): "I believe 'what the market will bare' is the national economic model and I can do better in that model than trying to break down all other codes and formulas"
could you explain/elaborate this to me please?

sincerely

niccolo'

Proud member of Ki Aikido Center Dojo in Firenze under the guidance of Mario Peloni Sensei. http://www.kiaikidocenter.it
Come join us!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2007, 07:56 PM   #22
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Quote:
Niccolo Gallio wrote: View Post
Thanks to everyone.
Miss Smith, I do not intend to "do" anything in particular with the informations gathered from this topic, I'm just asking to be more, well, informed.. thanks for your comment/opinion/story.
I have a problem in understanding one of your sentences (due to my english understanding problems, i suppose): "I believe 'what the market will bare' is the national economic model and I can do better in that model than trying to break down all other codes and formulas"
could you explain/elaborate this to me please?

sincerely

niccolo'
Sure.
Rather than using a formula based on ranking in aikido I use a responsible capatalistic approach to my dues structure. An approach that pays for the dojo, helps financilly support my time there as well as the other people who provide instruction to my students, and keeps us ahead of the stresses of financial poverty that so many small organizations face. We are then in a position to provide classes for free or low cost to elements of our local community who may not be able to afford to practice aikido at all. This fee structure is relative to the average cost of many other classes and professional services that people charge in central California ( a bit like George Sensei alluded to in his post when he mentioned the price of professionals who have many years in their fields. Such as a therapist or a lawyer, etc.. . We, as an organization, have discovered that this model best serves our dojo and the needs of the larger community.
Many of the services in the dojo are provided for free by wonderful students and teachers also. This is appropriate and normal while in a position of internship and learning.
No sensei I know or have met who is teaching aikido from their hearts and in the service of creating a world family is remotely compensated for their real time and energy contributions financially. The rewards come from the life it leads us in. That is why I teach and practice and that is why my teachers do.
I hope this answers your latter question.

Please forgive my question to you if it sounded harsh. Information is a resource that is often put to use. I wanted to know what your use would be. I don't think you liked the word 'intend' so I would like to make obvious my feelings about the word. Intent or intend is not a 'bad' word in my book. Intent can be many things. It seems your intent is to use information to be more, well, informed. That is a positive intent. Again, from my point of view my question was to clear up exactly what and why you are wondering about the cost of your training. Thank you for your answer.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2007, 11:27 PM   #23
Shannon Frye
Dojo: Aikido Fellowship of VA / Chesapeake Va
Location: Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 184
United_States
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

I'd check around, and see what the "going rate" is. Around here, most martial arts schools charge around $100 a month, but require a 3,6, or 12 month contract.

A previous aiki dojo only charged $55 a month, and no contract.

Current dojo charges $1 a class, and no contracts.

"In the end there can be only one"

www.AikidoFellowship.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2007, 02:52 AM   #24
Niccolo Gallio
Dojo: KI AIKIDO Center, Firenze
Location: Firenze
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14
Italy
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

Jennifer, I think my use of quotes (") around the word "do" (again ;-) ) looks really picky.. your question and the way it was put is not at all harsh and is fully appropriate.
Yes, sometimes, specially at the beginning of training year when we have to pay 40 euros for the annual registration (40+60) i am inclined to think that the fee is a little steep, but not at all indequate to the level of instruction. if there ever could be any dissatisfaction it would be oriented towards the hosting gym and not at all to my Dojo and Sensei.
Anyway, you explaination makes sense to me and I thank you for taking the time to elaborate, I bet everyone here except me got that the first time..

Shannon, your Dojo is a real bargain!

Thanks

Niccolo'

Proud member of Ki Aikido Center Dojo in Firenze under the guidance of Mario Peloni Sensei. http://www.kiaikidocenter.it
Come join us!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2007, 08:02 AM   #25
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,224
Offline
Re: check my dojo's monthly fee

[quote=Jennifer Smith;190327]

No sensei I know or have met who is teaching aikido from their hearts and in the service of creating a world family is remotely compensated for their real time and energy contributions financially. The rewards come from the life it leads us in. That is why I teach and practice and that is why my teachers do.

This is very well said. Everyone is a student, and not everyone can be a teacher. I'm a strong believer in the concept of the 'village dojo',and those who put their hearts into it may succeed; or not.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Philadelphia Dojos Testimonials MarqueFranklin-Williams General 12 09-25-2016 07:30 PM
Two Dojos in One (...by Ronco (tm)) Magma General 28 03-10-2005 04:01 PM
Dojos in N. Japan - need advice! Adam Garrison General 4 08-27-2003 10:13 AM
Going to other dojos Kat.C General 18 03-18-2002 02:57 PM
Great N. Ca. Dojos? peterb General 7 07-09-2000 05:49 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:51 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate