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Old 09-18-2007, 09:59 AM   #76
salim
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Strange that Don Magee had to go through great lengths to explain the basic premise of sparring. Why would one have to use analytical deduction to explain the basic fundamentals of sparring. The science of sparring is not new. The reasons for sparring are not new. I think the whole issue is more about a mentality that has crept into the psyche of some. Honesty is always the best policy. If you don't want to spar, if you don't like sparring, simply say I don't want to spar or I don't like it. Others love sparring and the hope is to learn and grow from the experience.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:56 AM   #77
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
You totally missed what Don was indicating. It's about effectiveness, not winning or losing. The MMA methodology has already proven the inherit fallacies of many martial arts. It's about using what works, learning it well and testing it in a fight. It's has been tried and tested over and over and over again. Get in the ring man, let's see what you've got.
Been There Done that Salim...You???

Sorry Bro No You Tubes....LOL

There is only one measure of effectiveness...

Are you alive??? If you survive an ecounter without serious injury or harm your technique is effective...And in Aikido if you manage not to cause undue harm to your adversary then you have achieved perfect effectivness...

Any Martial Art Taken Seriously... With Hard Practice... is effective 95% of the time...

Shifting the argument back and forth between Techniques... Instruction... Sparring.... Non Sparring... does not avoid that simple fact...

Aikido is about Resolving Conflict... Not Fighting...

In that sense I use it successfully every day...On the rare occasion the altercation becomes physical... My practice has not let me down...Ever...

By the way Salim The ring has little to do with real life...Unless Life is an MMA Contest...

Your Martial Practice is up to you...

Like I heard my first day of Ranger School back in the day.

Ranger!!! You want to run with the Big Dogs!!! You better start peeing on the Big Trees!!! Else You better get back up on the Porch with the Puppies!!!

Anyone who Knew SSG Swackhammer and Survived the Pit with him knows what I am talking about... The Hammer's Forearms were bigger than most men's thighs...LOL

Now days I spend most of my days under the porch in the shade... old dog that I am...

Respectfully,

William Hazen
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:15 AM   #78
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Mattias Bengtsson wrote: View Post
Don, I actually agree with most if not all your points..

In our dojo we sometimes before or after class we do a bit of "practical applications", basically, just fooling around while waiting for everyone to arrive. in a way, it's a bit of like sparing.. Its just not part of the curriculum.

Its just that whenever I "win" its just that i get the feeling its because im stronger or bigger than my partner, and when I lose, its because my partner is stronger or bigger than me..

It makes it hard for me to evaluate the benefits of sparing when my own experience of it has yet to show me any..
Or they are there, I haven't yet discovered them..
What is the problem with concept of winning in sparring?
Does it not convey that you have been better than the opposition, and that precisely how you know you have been successful in the application of you technique.
Sure you can use euphemism like at that time it worked well or yeah that technique was successful, but albeit being periphrases and not euphemism, they do carry the same meaning, just more PC.

A sparing session is made of plenty of victories, plenty of defeats and hopefully not that many double kill or status quo.
I think you need to recognise them as defeat or victories in order to get the lessons as to why and what lead you there because that is what we try get out of sparring.

After I spar, I usually have a chat with the guy to see how he saw it from is side. What mistake he exploited what opening I left.
It is good as well to have a 3rd party (that is knowledgeable) looking and have his/her impression.

As Don mentioned, this is kilometres away from competition. Sparing is a really good tool to make you understand what is need to a given technique to be successful, especially when you fail.
Next time you do it, try to see where your uke stops you and take advantage of the situation and take from there.
If I am so bold as to add to Ron advices, May be you do have the technique in front of you anymore, or the bit you are working on is not longer isolated or you have weakened you position by over stretching, may be is moving in such way that you should change technique and so on.
those are thing you can then take to your from pratice.

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:11 PM   #79
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Interesting thought about winning and losing.

Does this not also exist in the kata?

I mean kata falls into one of two categories.

1) My partner lets me do the technique. This assumes I will be successful and helps in the intro stage, but teaches me nothing about how to apply the technique.
2) My partner resists the technique in a number of ways. Attacking on balance, grabbing stronger, using muscle, whatever the case my be. At this point he is resisting me and I am either going to fail, or overcome him. No different then a sparing match. So attempting to stop a technique from happening at all is just as much 'competing' as competition. Yet, how many of you would argue that if someone was doing the worst technique you have ever seen that you should take the fall anyways and make him think he is being successful?

You would point out his flaws in some way and help him grow? This is what sparing is doing, only at a higher level then that. It also allows both sides to be uke and nage at the same time. This allows that pressure of 'realism' and helps us learn to deal with the other, non technique parts of conflict.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:45 PM   #80
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Interesting thought about winning and losing.

Does this not also exist in the kata?

I mean kata falls into one of two categories.

1) My partner lets me do the technique. This assumes I will be successful and helps in the intro stage, but teaches me nothing about how to apply the technique.
2) My partner resists the technique in a number of ways. Attacking on balance, grabbing stronger, using muscle, whatever the case my be. At this point he is resisting me and I am either going to fail, or overcome him. No different then a sparing match. So attempting to stop a technique from happening at all is just as much 'competing' as competition. Yet, how many of you would argue that if someone was doing the worst technique you have ever seen that you should take the fall anyways and make him think he is being successful?

You would point out his flaws in some way and help him grow? This is what sparing is doing, only at a higher level then that. It also allows both sides to be uke and nage at the same time. This allows that pressure of 'realism' and helps us learn to deal with the other, non technique parts of conflict.
Yes I agree with you on all accounts.
I would call it resisting more than competing but may be this is the same semantic as me with victory and defeats

That is the way we train. (well I think we do anyway)
Of course you need agreement from both side otherwise there is a little bit of being an arse or a bully.
I mean if you know what is coming and you ignore the initial atemi, you can resist almost any technique. Especially if tori is less experienced.
Though I would say this can be quite useful for changing technique because usually resisting a technique in advance will present another one.
Like trying to escape ikkio by removing/ strengthening the arm is going to give you either nikkiom sankio, rokio (provided that you have attacked the elbow as well).
Or someone that tries to escape tenchi nage by break falling before the technique is there will give you his leg to ikkio, nikkio sankio if you see what I mean.

In any case, resisting kata, semi sparing or drill, they are useful to establish a entering (as in getting the position) and isolation strategy/tactics.
For me regardless of the weapon or what you want to do open handed, this is what makes technique "efficient" or not.

Phil.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:56 PM   #81
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
...
Of course you need agreement from both side otherwise there is a little bit of being an arse or a bully.
I mean if you know what is coming and you ignore the initial atemi, you can resist almost any technique. Especially if tori is less experienced.
Though I would say this can be quite useful for changing technique because usually resisting a technique in advance will present another one.
Like trying to escape ikkio by removing/ strengthening the arm is going to give you either nikkiom sankio, rokio (provided that you have attacked the elbow as well).
Or someone that tries to escape tenchi nage by break falling before the technique is there will give you his leg to ikkio, nikkio sankio if you see what I mean.
This is my favorite part about sparing. This kind of resistance is not possible. If he ignores the strike to the head, he gets punched in the head.

Of course I agree with you that in static drills it is possible to lock out a partner. Anytime you know what is coming you should be able to defend it. This is where the honesty of giving a good solid attack comes into play. If your attack is committed and the right attack for the drill, the kuzushi and technique should fall into place. I

n my example however, I was referring to someone doing an awful technique. Lets say like you throw a punch, they spin around, take the strike in the kidneys and then tell you that you should be on the ground with a broken hand. (Making up the most insane bad technique I can think of.). Or maybe something more real, they grab your punching hand with both of their hands, then step towards your free hand without taking your balance. Then they pull the arm expecting you to topple over their body into a nice break fall. Assuming this is a black belt, would you stand there with a funny look on your face, throw a fake punch with your free hand, punch them in the face, or take a nice dive over their back into the best breakfall you can muster?

Of course you and I both know that taking the dive is not teaching anyone anything (unless your breakfalls need serious work). Yet by standing there, you defeated his technique. just like escaping that triangle and passing the guard, or using a jab cross to setup a nice hook, or throwing a leg kick to prevent takedowns while trying to get into the clinch.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-18-2007, 01:42 PM   #82
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Isn't the first video a clip of Royce warming up moments before the actual fight, while the Matt clips are him training weeks prior to the fight...?

It looks light and he hardly breaks a sweat.
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Old 09-18-2007, 02:52 PM   #83
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
These can go a long way in keeping sure that the techniques you do are in the spirit of the techniques you were taught.
And yes it is true that sparing only can not keep your art pure. It requires instructors with good character.
But sparing is different in MMA, bjj, judo, etc. It is most defiantly not about winning.
Hi Don,
Nice post. I'm pretty sure I understand where you're coming from. I think perhaps the biggest problem with this discussion may be semantics. One person sees "spar" and thinks something different than another person...though I'd still argue that it (competing vs sparing) comes down to individual personality more than some formal situation. I think overall there's a fine line between what you would call sparing and competition, even if there's a very distinct difference in your mind. I think competition is a mindset, not just a formal event and that sparing tends to be viewed as just a less formal competition. Perhaps the idea in much of Aikido is that such forms of competition are a slippery slope best avoided altogether? I've always found simply doing my best to make the concept of competing irrelevant...and that is I think what Aikido has tried to propogate and articulate.
I know I used to look at Shodokan's competition as a bad thing...in the context of "pure" Aikido. Now I re-realize it's only as good or bad as the attitudes which engage in it. I've always played sports and always done my best to win, but I've always been a good sport about loosing or winning and playing fair, etc. If I can do that in a soccer match, why not others in Aikido, etc? Now, I might even describe that kind of competing as competing without competing...or to borrow from the famous saying, true victory is victory over the self. Long story slightly less long, I'm not convinced competing is bad, so long as the competitors maintain a good attitude. I saw a glimmer of it on Matt Hughes' face when he had Royce's arm hyper-extended (as I recall anyway). He looked up at the ref as if to say, "What do I do? I don't want to hurt him."
I personally disagree with the idea of breaking a foolish person's arm in a competition. I'd rather lose and know I had him beat. You're probbaly right that many Aikidoka take the ideal too far where self defense is concerned, but I don't think fighting is what most Aikidoka train for. It's usually something more abstract than that, though it is usually part of it. It's much like people who take tai chi for healthful reasons as opposed to self defense reasons...I think, anyway.
Thanks again for the food for thought!
Delicious as always.
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-18-2007 at 02:57 PM.

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Old 09-18-2007, 03:10 PM   #84
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Strange that Don Magee had to go through great lengths to explain the basic premise of sparring. Why would one have to use analytical deduction to explain the basic fundamentals of sparring. The science of sparring is not new. The reasons for sparring are not new. I think the whole issue is more about a mentality that has crept into the psyche of some. Honesty is always the best policy. Others love sparring and the hope is to learn and grow from the experience.
I don't think it's so strange...but I'm often a little bit strange so maybe it's all relative. I know he's repeated himself quite a bit in an effort to reiterate his meaning, but that's the nature of these forums. There are slight variations in meaning. Words, as symbols for our meanings, are highly subjective and thus subject to individual interpretation. Sometimes you have to cover a lot of ground to reach common understanding...and even then people tend to read based more on their own perceptions than trying to understand others...and sometimes people just miss each other's meaning outright.
Quote:
If you don't want to spar, if you don't like sparring, simply say I don't want to spar or I don't like it.
Because it's not often being put forth in this way. The problem arises when people say one way is better than another and that others should do as they do. Sincerely meant or antagonistic (I don't think Don is antagonistic) this is where simple ideas expand into huge threads than never die (despite people complaining on said threads about how they never die ).
As an aside: I got a funny response a while back when I tried to apply Aikido to communication, but I still think the sharing of ideals and ideas tends to be one of the most important places we can evaluate our training. Physical interaction is relatively easy in my view; it's thoughts and feelings which get sticky and demand the highest focus, patience, and discipline.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 09-19-2007, 06:30 AM   #85
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
This is my favorite part about sparing. This kind of resistance is not possible. If he ignores the strike to the head, he gets punched in the head.

Of course I agree with you that in static drills it is possible to lock out a partner. Anytime you know what is coming you should be able to defend it. This is where the honesty of giving a good solid attack comes into play. If your attack is committed and the right attack for the drill, the kuzushi and technique should fall into place. I

n my example however, I was referring to someone doing an awful technique. Lets say like you throw a punch, they spin around, take the strike in the kidneys and then tell you that you should be on the ground with a broken hand. (Making up the most insane bad technique I can think of.). Or maybe something more real, they grab your punching hand with both of their hands, then step towards your free hand without taking your balance. Then they pull the arm expecting you to topple over their body into a nice break fall. Assuming this is a black belt, would you stand there with a funny look on your face, throw a fake punch with your free hand, punch them in the face, or take a nice dive over their back into the best breakfall you can muster?

Of course you and I both know that taking the dive is not teaching anyone anything (unless your breakfalls need serious work). Yet by standing there, you defeated his technique. just like escaping that triangle and passing the guard, or using a jab cross to setup a nice hook, or throwing a leg kick to prevent takedowns while trying to get into the clinch.
hello don
I agree with you about the punch in the face, if you blatantly ignore it, you will have a fat lip (from form work or sparing).

About your example I assume we are talking from form work and about a technique we have practiced before and that is functional. (ie that has entrance isolation/control/technique).

I would take the fall at least the fist time, and tell my partner that the technique was not really on. And if he agrees we can try to work that out at the next iteration of the technique. (May be he is working on a specific part of the said technique. or he may be an arse and not being worth the energy)

And yes resisting at that stage is exactly the same intent as the counter you mentions, just in a more controlled environment than free sparing. I think you still missing all the entrance startgy and tactics that you can explore in free sparing but you can integrate those elements in kokyu nague /randory.

phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-29-2007, 05:39 PM   #86
stan baker
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

the problem is that even the top people in aiki do not have powerful aiki power.

stan
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Old 09-29-2007, 07:53 PM   #87
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Not only did you pointlessly bump a dead thread, but you bumped it with a stupid post. I congratulate you.

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Old 09-30-2007, 06:59 AM   #88
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

thank you, just look at some of the best jujitsu fighters ,who in aikido can handle them so it is not that hard to understand.

stan
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Old 09-30-2007, 10:26 AM   #89
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
thank you, just look at some of the best jujitsu fighters ,who in aikido can handle them so it is not that hard to understand.

stan
"IT'S ALIIIIIIIIVE! Muahahahahahhaaaaah!"
Not that I know one way or the other, but I'm curious how you know? Have you trained with many of the "top" guys in aikido and jujutsu? Are you including koryu, or BJJ only?
I know this kind of thread causes a great number of people to go and I hope they'll forgive my dogged fascination with topics like this, but I am still curious about what causes folks to make assertions like this...or more to the point, I'm curious if I'll encounter something new which I can agree with. Very sorry for raising anyone's ire.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-30-2007 at 10:29 AM.

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Old 09-30-2007, 05:58 PM   #90
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
thank you, just look at some of the best jujitsu fighters ,who in aikido can handle them so it is not that hard to understand
.

What does that have to do with my post?? :S
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