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Old 09-14-2007, 03:20 PM   #26
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

I think it's fair enough to point out that the thread is five years old and there's no real reason to resurrect it. I think continued interest in the modern state of the arts on this board is positive, but we don't need 15 different threads on it. When there's already an active BJJ thread up, why resurrect one 5 years old?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-14-2007, 04:01 PM   #27
grondahl
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

1: But for ***** sake, its a 5 year old thread. And it´s not contributing to anything new. We already have at least 2 or 3 thread dealing with training methods and I have a hard time seeing that this one will bring up anything new.
2: So I´m the passive aggressive one according to someone who posts just to point that out and also brings statements like "MMA is not BJJ" to the discussion. I usually enjoy your posts but this time I get a little "Don Quijote"-feeling from it.

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Yes it is old, but people to this day believe this tripe.

And while Paw did respond well to the OP, your passive aggressiveness is exactly why people won't let this thread die. If you have something to say then say it and back it up. Too often the sport vs street debate is brought up, and almost invariably the 'street' people run from a real challenge. This is even in cases of friendly sparring or randoori.

Roman just came and said what he thought and it is about time. And Dan's post is something that people need to better understand. BJJ is just part of an overal fighting strategy.

MMA IS NOT BJJ.

People who train to fight, train not only BJJ but also in striking and clinching ranges. In addition fewer and fewer fighters are training formal BJJ. There is also wrestling, judo, sombo, etc.

No one here forces you to read these threads. Nobody was being insulting or rude.
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Old 09-14-2007, 04:30 PM   #28
Dewey
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
...
What's truly sad is that the ratio of views/posts in this thread outstrip the average substantially, showing that a morbid fascination with this sort of topic persists.
Yeah, it's a lot like looking at a car accident...can't help it.

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Yes it is old, but people to this day believe this tripe...
Why, yes they do.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
I think it's fair enough to point out that the thread is five years old and there's no real reason to resurrect it. I think continued interest in the modern state of the arts on this board is positive, but we don't need 15 different threads on it. When there's already an active BJJ thread up, why resurrect one 5 years old?
Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
1: But for ***** sake, its a 5 year old thread. And it´s not contributing to anything new. We already have at least 2 or 3 thread dealing with training methods and I have a hard time seeing that this one will bring up anything new...
Indeed. There are a few currently-running threads that have sprawled from this genus & species of discussion. I sure wish intrepid posters would first use the "search" function before posting.

Why can't they just leave it alone....?


Last edited by Dewey : 09-14-2007 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 09-14-2007, 07:19 PM   #29
salim
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Brian Dewey wrote: View Post
Yeah, it's a lot like looking at a car accident...can't help it.

Why, yes they do.

Indeed. There are a few currently-running threads that have sprawled from this genus & species of discussion. I sure wish intrepid posters would first use the "search" function before posting.

Why can't they just leave it alone....?

Are you Michael Jackson's cousin? I see the resemblance.
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Old 09-14-2007, 08:02 PM   #30
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
1: The OP is 5 years old.
Holy sweet crap...I just noticed this. Feel like a total tool for even posting in this thread now. Ugh...
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Old 09-14-2007, 08:15 PM   #31
Dewey
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Are you Michael Jackson's cousin? I see the resemblance.
Sorry...it was my failed attempt at humor. It's a pop-culture reference. Google: "leave britney alone". It's a YouTube video of some crazed fan. It's worth a watch.

No, I don't look anything like that...imagine a bald Irishman.
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Old 09-14-2007, 08:55 PM   #32
Dan Austin
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Dan, if nothing else, it is entertainment for me. I don't have cable TV.
Dang, you sure you're not in West Virginia?
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Old 09-15-2007, 06:08 PM   #33
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Holy sweet crap...I just noticed this. Feel like a total tool for even posting in this thread now. Ugh...
LOL! Yeah I feel yer pain on that one. It's a good thing I'm numb from the neck up or it might've bothered me enough to not post when it comes around again.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-16-2007, 07:11 AM   #34
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Aries Navy wrote: View Post
Its one of the favorite topic in our DOJO. What can an AIKIDOKA do with a BRAZILIAN JUJITSU practioner?

My opinion (READ: OPINION) Technique wise Aikido is really rich compared to the B Jujitsu. It will be hard for a B Jujitsu to tackle down a well versed AIKIDOKA.

I have tried to spar with a B. Jujitsu practioner and has indeed proven this. He tried many times to knock me down and he just could not get a hold on me. I simply blended with him and he always end up in the mat. He asked me numerous times did you trip me? I said no. On the ground with the B Jujitsu on top of me ( We started with me lying down) I was able to do both IKKYO and NIKKYO on one of the hands holding me down. Once I have done this I just rolled over still holding his hand. We ended up with me in the kneeling position while the guy is on the floor still PINNED.

With my back on the mat, I learned that an Aikidoka should be aware of the following things:

1. The punches - with your back on the mat it will be hard to parry it, one should be fast to apply the locks. faster than the punches. Try not to keep his head close to yours if you want to avoid the punches. See number 3
2. The leg locks - don't let them do this.
3. The hold that makes your head closer to his - I had a hard time applying the locks under this position. I pushed his head first then applied the lock.
4. If all things fail in real life don't forget to gouge the eyes and bite into their ears or any part of the body for the matter.

I was suprised of the result. I said a while ago about a WELL VERSED AIKIDOKA, I am far from that. Don't get me wrong about that statement,I only meant " If I can do it, a not so well versed Aikidoka what more can a well versed one do?"

On the other hand I think It will be B Jujitsu all the way if ever an Aikidoka is in on the mat on all fours with the B Jujitsu on his back. One has to avoid that from happening.

Then again the end result will still be on the practioner.

Iam interested in your comments and opinions or even experience.
This kind of a post reduces Aikiweb to the level of the most ignorant poster. The question is old, too very old. The premise is wrong, so very wrong, and the ignorance is great, so very great.

BJJ is good. Aikido is good. Fighting is no good. Excessive concern over self defense is obsessive. and style vs style is stupid, unrealistic and wrong in it's premise. These kinds of discussions are a waste of time.

Sorry to be so blunt. The unvarnished truth can be rough sometimes but it saves time.

Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:16 AM   #35
antonis paps
 
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

jeezzz....

Does it matter?

If you want to do grappling, do grappling.

End of story.

Τὰ πάντα ῥεῖ , What Flows, Is.
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:52 AM   #36
DH
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Maybe it's worth pointing out they are both limited in scope. Nether offers a complete system for fighting. Train in both, love them both for what they are. Then, train to blow them both up.

At a certain point in time everyone needs to -not- fall in love with their art- forsaking all others. At a point your single goal should be to stand back, look at what you do and know, and all those around you, and make it your purpose in training to learn every, single, weakness, in every single teacher you know. Look at them as so much meat. Don't buy anything they tell you. Be predatory in mind and action. It may help to see things more even handedly.

BJJ, Aikido, Daito ryu, Wrestling, are all limited venue grappling. While all may be wonderful and a blast to do-many could be in for an awakening. When you meet someone who can use elbows, knees, head butts and strikes and can deliver them with skill and power, and who UNDERSTANDS and is versed in what you are going to be trying to do can be rather interesting. When they can prevent you from using your R'epertoire while they deliver theirs can quite the eye opener. There's nothing like having your ribs or nose broken while you are "trying" for a set up tp some lock, throw or choke, to make you wake up and smell the coffee.
Everyone should make note of the fact that an American wrestler beat Royce.....with? The ground and pound. And Greco Roman wrestling with knees and strikes has been the reigning king in several weight classes., and dirty boxing beat -them- both at times.
When style limitations go out the window -styles no longer win-people do.
So, its pointless to keep thinking of what ART can beat what ART. Its stupid. No art beats an art. People who are well versed in different venues and use their brains, and train in full resistance win. Not some art.
See the arts, and more importantly these so-called artists and teachers for who and what they are. Keep trying a bunch of things, even if you fell in love with one art or another and doggedly work at making a better...you.

Last edited by DH : 09-16-2007 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 09-16-2007, 01:00 PM   #37
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Maybe it's worth pointing out they are both limited in scope. Nether offers a complete system for fighting. Train in both, love them both for what they are. Then, train to blow them both up.

At a certain point in time everyone needs to -not- fall in love with their art- forsaking all others. At a point your single goal should be to stand back, look at what you do and know, and all those around you, and make it your purpose in training to learn every, single, weakness, in every single teacher you know. Look at them as so much meat. Don't buy anything they tell you. Be predatory in mind and action. It may help to see things more even handedly.

BJJ, Aikido, Daito ryu, Wrestling, are all limited venue grappling. While all may be wonderful and a blast to do-many could be in for an awakening. When you meet someone who can use elbows, knees, head butts and strikes and can deliver them with skill and power, and who UNDERSTANDS and is versed in what you are going to be trying to do can be rather interesting. When they can prevent you from using your R'epertoire while they deliver theirs can quite the eye opener. There's nothing like having your ribs or nose broken while you are "trying" for a set up tp some lock, throw or choke, to make you wake up and smell the coffee.
Everyone should make note of the fact that an American wrestler beat Royce.....with? The ground and pound. And Greco Roman wrestling with knees and strikes has been the reigning king in several weight classes., and dirty boxing beat -them- both at times.
When style limitations go out the window -styles no longer win-people do.
So, its pointless to keep thinking of what ART can beat what ART. Its stupid. No art beats an art. People who are well versed in different venues and use their brains, and train in full resistance win. Not some art.
See the arts, and more importantly these so-called artists and teachers for who and what they are. Keep trying a bunch of things, even if you fell in love with one art or another and doggedly work at making a better...you.


The Best Post I have seen in years with regard to the " This VS That" Fallacy.

Bruce Lee ( One of my Heros') felt exactly the same way.

Another Generation Another Learning Curve.

Thank You Dan.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 09-16-2007 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 09-16-2007, 03:44 PM   #38
paw
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Everyone should make note of the fact that an American wrestler beat Royce.....with? The ground and pound
With all due respect, Hughes isn't "an American wrestler". He's a fighter who has trained extensively in boxing, wrestling and BJJ.

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any competitor in mixed martial arts who trains in only one discipline. Which, as best I understand it, actually supports your assertion.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 09-16-2007, 05:01 PM   #39
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

They train in the discipline of MMA. Hughes/Royce was a clear example of the evolution of MMA. It was like MMA 1.0 vs MMA 3.0

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-16-2007, 05:06 PM   #40
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

It wasn't MMA 1.0 vs MMA 3.0

It was a stronger, younger man beating down an older, weaker dude.
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Old 09-16-2007, 05:47 PM   #41
DH
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
It wasn't MMA 1.0 vs MMA 3.0

It was a stronger, younger man beating down an older, weaker dude.
It was 1.0 VS 3.0.
Royce was unprepared for what and who he ws faciing.

Age can be a factor, but not always. Then of course we have Randi and Chuck; 45 and 38 respectively -which doesn't help explain away Royce not being better prepared when he fought at 40.
In any event pure jujutsu was always a dicey gambit-and it was originally made to work in connction with weapons. Stand alone grappling is as risky as Aikido or BJJ are- as stand alone arts- without striking and kicking.
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Old 09-16-2007, 07:06 PM   #42
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Royce IS 3.0

He trains striking, wrestling, grappling. By the time he fought Matt he was an evolved, modern fighter. It's like people take a snapshot in their mind of UFC 1 Royce Gracie and freeze it in their head permanently. Royce simply lost to an exceptionally powerful guy who does BJJ just like any other fighter.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 09-16-2007 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:17 PM   #43
paw
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Royce IS 3.0
Most of the fans/fighters I know wouldn't agree, and I would certainly count myself among them.

With Royce, the question has always been who he's training with and how. My understanding is that he is not training with people who are at his level (or better) and as a result he's not improving or evolving as a fighter.

In contrast, Hughes was training with folks who were as good as he was, if not better, at Miletich's.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:28 PM   #44
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

The quality of Royce's training is a different matter. What I meant by 3.0 is that he no longer only trains only one thing like early BJJ guys did. He has expanded his game.
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Old 09-16-2007, 10:54 PM   #45
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Not quite what I meant. Royce may train in all ranges, but he is not effective in all ranges.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:01 AM   #46
Leon Aman
 
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Hi to all,

Everytime I hear or read about a discussion with regards to the effectivness of Aikido against other MA, I am so irritated to hear a defensive reasoning such as..... Aikido is not about fighting and so on and so forth or even injecting spiritual mysticism in Aikido just to cover up its unreliability in fighting situation. Why don't you be honest with yourself and accept the fact that when it comes to actual fighting or in the ring, Aikido is not that reliable, instead of trying to defend it by Philosophical reasoning.

Of course there is a brilliant side in Aikido but that is a different topic of discussion.

Talking from experience.

Leon
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:43 AM   #47
salim
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Leon Aman wrote: View Post
Hi to all,

Everytime I hear or read about a discussion with regards to the effectivness of Aikido against other MA, I am so irritated to hear a defensive reasoning such as..... Aikido is not about fighting and so on and so forth or even injecting spiritual mysticism in Aikido just to cover up its unreliability in fighting situation. Why don't you be honest with yourself and accept the fact that when it comes to actual fighting or in the ring, Aikido is not that reliable, instead of trying to defend it by Philosophical reasoning.

Of course there is a brilliant side in Aikido but that is a different topic of discussion.

Talking from experience.

Leon
I couldn't agree with you more. Martial integrity is a huge huge issue in the Aikido world.
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:35 AM   #48
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I couldn't agree with you more. Martial integrity is a huge huge issue in the Aikido world.
No..... it's not. It's only a huge issue for some on this board and some other boards.

Most Aikido folks I know are accomplished Martial Artists and focus on bettering themselves and sharing thier knowledge

Aikido Martial Arts Psuedo-Controversy is nothing more than a straw man argument at best.

William Hazen
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:41 AM   #49
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Leon Aman wrote: View Post
Hi to all,

Everytime I hear or read about a discussion with regards to the effectivness of Aikido against other MA, I am so irritated to hear a defensive reasoning such as..... Aikido is not about fighting and so on and so forth or even injecting spiritual mysticism in Aikido just to cover up its unreliability in fighting situation. Why don't you be honest with yourself and accept the fact that when it comes to actual fighting or in the ring, Aikido is not that reliable, instead of trying to defend it by Philosophical reasoning.

Of course there is a brilliant side in Aikido but that is a different topic of discussion.

Talking from experience.

Leon
What experiance??? What style of Aikido??? What does fighting in the ring have to do with it's effectiveness against other Martial Arts???

No Tickey...No Laundry...

William Hazen
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Old 09-17-2007, 11:11 AM   #50
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
What does fighting in the ring have to do with it's effectiveness against other Martial Arts???

William Hazen
It's a good place to start looking at the very least. Especially the early mma fights. They showed very well the strengths and weaknesses of many styles of fighting. And after all, fighting is a large part of the word martial.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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