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Old 09-12-2007, 04:58 AM   #201
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Yeah thats pretty much how Yosh did it. The other thing is to always keep uke off balance by maintaining tension/pain. Its an area people become lazy with. I don't do it so much now because it can cause serious injuries. Some of Yoshi's old students still have bad wrists and elbows.
I don't think I would call it Yoseikan if the kuzushi was not done by attacking a joint. Mochizuki Kancho said this is the way Yoseikan is more closely related to Daito Ryu then other Aikido styles. This is best seen in Tenkan Kote Gaeshi. Almost everyone I have seen do this, pulls uke around the corner (which does not work). Where as we in Yoseikan lever uke's elbow on our side (which is most effective).

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:58 AM   #202
darin
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Its interesting Graham that not all Yoseikan groups do it that way. I never saw it in the hombu or on the 2 set Mochizuki's videos or the YWF. The YWF use a larger movement and kind of drag the wrist instead of turning it. They believe that it prevents nage from being hit. Probably works in their system but we have found when uke tries to hit he will usually relax his trapped arm allowing us to twist his wrist. Also dragging or doing a large movement gives uke a chance of countering the technique as he can regain his balance. To my understanding as you progress with aikido your circles become smaller.
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:15 AM   #203
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

In those videos it is Kaoru Sugiyama Sensei who demonstrates the Kote Gaeshi. This is Auge Sensei's wife. I can't comment on how she does the Kote Gaeshi not being how the Hombu did it (as I never got to train at the Yoseikan or With Kancho). But I can say, Auge Sensei did it with a rather devistating snap to the elbow with a turn of the hip. I can also Say that Kaoru Sugiyama Sensei did study another style of Aikido first, which I believe she had a black belt in, and this may be the source of her Kote Gaeshi. I will try and find the reference.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:28 AM   #204
darin
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

The Japanese guy from the hombu who trained at my dojo also did kotegaeshi wthout the snap to the elbow. Maybe you can find out from Auge Sensei why the big difference between the Seifukai and what he and Yosh are/were doing. I know Ross was doing exactly whats on those video tapes when I visited his dojo.
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:36 AM   #205
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
The Japanese guy from the hombu who trained at my dojo also did kotegaeshi wthout the snap to the elbow. Maybe you can find out from Auge Sensei why the big difference between the Seifukai and what he and Yosh are/were doing. I know Ross was doing exactly whats on those video tapes when I visited his dojo.
Next time I am there I will ask.

I found the reference. In Auge Sensei's interview on Aikido Journal, he states that his wife was a black belt from another Aikido school.

Regards,

PS I remember Ross had a very Yoshinkan style Kote Gaeshi, with the flip and all, when I was there. So when I did the Kote Gaeshi to throw them backwards, the students did not know what I was doing.

Graham Wild
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:07 AM   #206
lezard39
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Next time I am there I will ask.

I found the reference. In Auge Sensei's interview on Aikido Journal, he states that his wife was a black belt from another Aikido school.

Regards,

PS I remember Ross had a very Yoshinkan style Kote Gaeshi, with the flip and all, when I was there. So when I did the Kote Gaeshi to throw them backwards, the students did not know what I was doing.
Hello Graham and Darin,

In our dojo, most of the time we did the kote gaeshi with the snap of the elbows and a irimi senkai, but sometime depending on the reaction (foot) of uke or depending of the kind of grab, we just pass directly in front of him and throw uke with a 180 degree hip turn and uke need to do a front Ukemi in passing above his grabbed arm or we throw backwards if uke is a beginner. That's Omote for us, but we also did Ura variation in doing a permutation of foots and turning, dragging Uke hand instead of pushing on it. I don't remember how Sugiyama Sensei did it in the second Yoseikan sogo video, I'm gonna take a look tonight but anyway it was done long time ago…
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:10 AM   #207
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Olivier Desrochers wrote: View Post
Hello Graham and Darin,

In our dojo, most of the time we did the kote gaeshi with the snap of the elbows and a irimi senkai, but sometime depending on the reaction (foot) of uke or depending of the kind of grab, we just pass directly in front of him and throw uke with a 180 degree hip turn and uke need to do a front Ukemi in passing above his grabbed arm or we throw backwards if uke is a beginner. That's Omote for us, but we also did Ura variation in doing a permutation of foots and turning, dragging Uke hand instead of pushing on it. I don't remember how Sugiyama Sensei did it in the second Yoseikan sogo video, I'm gonna take a look tonight but anyway it was done long time ago…
I thought Auge Sensei was the one who did the demo of Kote Gaeshi. So I quickly checked the DVD. On the slow motion replay, you can clearly see that Sugiyama Sensei does the irimi senkai, without any pressure on the elbow.

Regard,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:11 AM   #208
darin
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

In the video you can see that robuse is done without the hip and arm snap. Irmi nage is done straight but lacks any "Seagal" in it. Sorry couldn't find a better word! Kataha is done without pressuring the elbow. Shiho nage has no balance breaking.

It would have been great if they did everything more dynamic like in the randori. Actually even that was a dissapointment as they showed a few throws then zoomed up on an ornament. I enjoyed Kancho's speech at the end. The kata demo is also valuable resource for us instructors.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:30 AM   #209
darin
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Next time I am there I will ask.

I found the reference. In Auge Sensei's interview on Aikido Journal, he states that his wife was a black belt from another Aikido school.

Regards,

PS I remember Ross had a very Yoshinkan style Kote Gaeshi, with the flip and all, when I was there. So when I did the Kote Gaeshi to throw them backwards, the students did not know what I was doing.
I can't remember if I did kotegaeshi when I trained at his dojo but I do remember doing kataha and shihonage the same way as whats on the Yoseikan videos.
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:21 AM   #210
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I don't think I would call it Yoseikan if the kuzushi was not done by attacking a joint. Mochizuki Kancho said this is the way Yoseikan is more closely related to Daito Ryu then other Aikido styles. This is best seen in Tenkan Kote Gaeshi. Almost everyone I have seen do this, pulls uke around the corner (which does not work). Where as we in Yoseikan lever uke's elbow on our side (which is most effective).

Regards,
I would imagine this would be quite injurious?
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:26 AM   #211
darin
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Yes it could be injurious to the elbow joint if done forceful however I have seen more injured wrists from other forms of kotegaeshi especially resulted from where uke still has his balance and nage wrenches his wrist.
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:35 AM   #212
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

I've seen an intersting variation of kote-gashi when in the wrist is folded back and force is applied along the direction of the forearm and downwards into the balance weakspot (vs against the wrist)

What has been your experience with that one? It seems more 'aiki' than using pain compliance / threat of injury to achieve the goal

(Sorry if that's O/T)
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:41 AM   #213
darin
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

You mean the wrist is rolled back towards uke and not to the side? If so, it works well against a closed fist. If the wrist is kept low it can cause a lot of pain.
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:55 AM   #214
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Yep - that's the one. Is there a name for that variation?

Anatomically, it seems like it would be less injurious than the wrist crank and 'elbow on hip wrist crank' versions.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:07 AM   #215
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Hey Bob,

What you're describing is the standard version of kotegaeshi for Seidokan aikido; we just call it kotegaeshi I believe (some) Ki Society dojo may call that variation kotemoroshi ...but don't quote me.

Bronson

p.s. One of the "tricks" that I've found with this version is to bring uke's elbow under their hand instead of bringing their hand over their elbow. Makes a world of difference

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:31 AM   #216
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

I believe some people use the term Kote Otoshi for this version.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:39 AM   #217
darin
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Yep - that's the one. Is there a name for that variation?

Anatomically, it seems like it would be less injurious than the wrist crank and 'elbow on hip wrist crank' versions.
I have found that it causes uke to crumple. Yeah I'd say its less injurious than the other version and works better against a karate reverse punch or have short arms. You sort of follow the hand back in after the punch.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:48 AM   #218
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I have found that it causes uke to crumple. Yeah I'd say its less injurious than the other version and works better against a karate reverse punch or have short arms. You sort of follow the hand back in after the punch.
It is also great for a recoiling punch that you get to late.

Graham Wild
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:50 AM   #219
grondahl
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

It's probably a confusion in how I read the description, but that sounds more or less exactly how my instructors have done kotegaeshi.

The more or less comes from my understanding that the balance weakspot should be located somewhere just behind and below the elbow.

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
I've seen an intersting variation of kote-gashi when in the wrist is folded back and force is applied along the direction of the forearm and downwards into the balance weakspot (vs against the wrist)

What has been your experience with that one? It seems more 'aiki' than using pain compliance / threat of injury to achieve the goal

(Sorry if that's O/T)
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:02 PM   #220
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
It's probably a confusion in how I read the description, but that sounds more or less exactly how my instructors have done kotegaeshi.

The more or less comes from my understanding that the balance weakspot should be located somewhere just behind and below the elbow.
The Kote Gaeshi done in many jujutsu schools, including Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, is done by twisting the wrist to the side, in front of uke (this results in uke flipping to the front and side). I can't comment on Daito Ryu, but I think the Kote Otoshi version of Kote Gaeshi is novel to Aikido (this results in uke rolling backwards).

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:13 PM   #221
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

How would you compare your Kote otoshi to the kote gaeshi done by Saito sensei in this youtube vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ma09rENYM
The kotegaeshi is between 04:43 and 05:05
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Old 09-13-2007, 01:09 PM   #222
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
How would you compare your Kote otoshi to the kote gaeshi done by Saito sensei in this youtube vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ma09rENYM
The kotegaeshi is between 04:43 and 05:05
It is not my Kote Otoshi, I think Tohei came up with that term.

I do kote gaeshi with an irimi tenkan, levering ukes arm against my side to make him move (to unbalance) then rotate away from him, applying the rotation of my hips to the rotation his wrist, forcing him sideways, while I am basically infront of him.

Having done a little Iwama, I can say that the Kote Gaeshi Omote is in between the two versions I described above. Again I don't know about Kote gaeshi in Daito Ryu, so I can't comment on the origin of this kote gaeshi.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:06 PM   #223
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

The bigest distinction I noticed with kote gaeshi in Main line was that you never raise the hand during application.

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-15-2007, 10:44 PM   #224
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
The bigest distinction I noticed with kote gaeshi in Main line was that you never raise the hand during application.

Best,
Ron
Just to be clear: in main line Daito ryu the hand being kotegaeshi-ed isn't raised or lifted during the technique?

This is interesting to me because in Seidokan we (at least my instructor) also keep the hand low ...at least we're supposed to

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:22 AM   #225
wildaikido
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Re: Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Bronson Diffin wrote: View Post
Just to be clear: in main line Daito ryu the hand being kotegaeshi-ed isn't raised or lifted during the technique?

This is interesting to me because in Seidokan we (at least my instructor) also keep the hand low ...at least we're supposed to

Bronson
I would hope that this is the way that most people do there Kote Gaeshi. We do not raise the hand in kote Gaseshi, in Yoseikan.

I know the reason they raise the hand in omote kote gaeshi in Iwama, is a safety aspect for the short movement. If the proper movement was done at full speed and force, there would be not chance to fall, it would result in significant damage to the joint.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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