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Old 09-12-2007, 10:26 AM   #201
phil farmer
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Sorry to be coming so late to this thread. My name was thrown in way back in the beginning but it has been a very busy spring and summer.

I practice and teach Yoseikan Budo. In the U.S. we began as direct students of Minoru Mochizuki's Yoseikan and over the past several years have learned and become a part of Hiroo Mochizuki's Yoseikan Budo. My view is that Yoseikan, dating from 1931 and Minoru Sensei is one of the original mixed martial arts. Minoru Sensei spent his life looking for the links that would tie all of the martial arts together.

In the 1950's he went to France and Europe and introduced Aiki to the Europeans (with O Sensei's permission). Minoru Sensei took matches with all comers and all styles and learned very quickly that one style did not work with everyone. When he came back from his trip, he told this to O Sensei, that aiki did not always work and that he had used his karate, judo, jiujitsu, basically his whole repetoire (which was massive in the man) to deal with boxers, savate, wrestling, etc. It was this trip that pushed Minoru Sensei to work even more to blend the arts into an effective approach.

What has not been known by lots of folks is that in the 1950's, Hiroo Mochizuki was sent to Europe. He introduced Shotokan to France and Europe and is much celebrated by the karate community in France as the father of their karate, to the point that he was recently awarded 9th dan by the French Karate Federation. Hiroo Sensei learned the same things his father did, aiki, shotokan, etc, don't always work depending on the fighter.
(And, as to his aiki credentials, Hiroo Mochizuki was Ueshiba's direct student from 1948 until he left for France to live in 1963).

When Hiroo Sensei returned from France, he took up Wado Ryu Karate to fill in some of the gaps he found when he was taking all matches in Europe. The other thing that many don't know is that it was during this time that his father charged Hiroo Sensei with finding the way to put all of the martial arts together. Minoru Sensei explained that he believed there was a way but he had, up to that point, not found it. He charged his son with finding the way to blend the arts together. This was the inspiration for Hiroo Sensei to develop Yoseikan Budo and what you see today is the result. In 2002, Minoru Sensei was living with Hiroo Shihan and after watching many workouts (something he demanded to do every day!), Minoru Sensei took his son aside and congratulated him for finally doing what had eluded the father for a lifetime, finding the way to blend the arts together in a manner that could be learned by the average student. During these years of development, the training Hombu in Shizuoka was "the Yoseikan" but it was the work of Hiroo Mochizuki that developed Yoseikan Budo and to honor his son, Minoru Mochizuki began to use the term in the later years in Japan.

Now, as to the aiki/boxing sparring, I say hurray for anyone trying this. We do this all the time in Yoseikan Budo, we work hard on maia and timing. Leydard Sensei is quite on point, if you allow that boxer to get those punches off, you arent doing it right and aiki is all about kazushi, maia (sp) and timing. Machi no sen, tai no sen and sen no sen are all key to sparring and self defense. In our competitions in Yoseikan Budo, we allow full force, full speed punches and kicks and strikes with the padded weapons. Suddenly, all the dojo time in the world is useless and you find out real fast if the techniques work or not. Now, we wear head gear with face mask, gloves, chest protectors and leg and foot guards because of course, you cannot do direct combat like that and then get up and go to work or school the next day so in that sense, it is not real world. But, it is as close as one can safely get to a no rules experience, in my opinion.

Yoseikan Budo is not Yoseikan Aikido. Yoseikan Budo is its own art developed by Hiroo Mochizuki based on many different experiences with karate (shotokan and wado ryu), kempo (the time the family spent in China), boxing (Hiroo Sensei became a gold gloves boxer), judo, jiujitsu, aiki, savate (boxe francais), and even tai chi, plus the kobudo aspects. Hiroo Shihan explained his belief that what his father did, Yoseikan, should never have been called aikido but would have been more correctly defined as a soft jiujitsu.
The development of Yoseikan Budo is the direct result of testing those skills against all comers and finding what works. It continues to be refined on a daily basis by Shihan, his sons Mitchi and Kyoshi, and the many other international instructors of Yoseikan Budo.

Hope this helps and again, sorry for coming on the thread late in the game. It is an interesting discussion. On a personal level, I have to comment that my experience in multiple aikido dojo over the years has been wonderful and made my Yoseikan skills much better but that the two arts are practiced by folks for very different reasons. Any reason is a good one to do martial arts and budo, the way of stopping conflict, is to be respected in all of its legitimate forms but everyone needs to keep in mind, to compare aiki, even different styles, and then to say which is effective and which isn't, that is not the humility any of us have been taught by our own sensei. Good discussion but, budo above all, we are all of the same tree - - - budo.

Humbly,

Phil Farmer
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:35 AM   #202
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
I think every school is going to be different to one degree or another. The question for every person is "What is the training goal?", followed by "How well does this curriculum serve the goal?".

It's difficult to comment without seeing it, but here for example you have 16 x 9 = 144 variations involving many situations which would likely not occur in a real confrontation, or which would be different enough to require radical changes in response. Who is going to grab both your hands, or one of yours with both of theirs?!? If someone were to grab your sleeve, it would only be so that they could rain punches on your head more easily. Such a grab when it occurs is simply the prelude to a hit a fraction of a second later. Beyond teaching basic movement principles, following this sort of curriculum for too long probably wouldn't lead to much with technical self-defense carryover. To be blunt, wristlocks and other standing armwrestling are best for convincing your friends you're a super-ninja, they are not of much real use against an opponent who represents a real threat. It's nice to know, but it's suitable for low-level or very constrained conflicts, and generally not worth spending years on unless it's typical for your job to have to try to control people this way. For anything worth worrying about, there is no getting around the notion of the importance of atemi, and being able to deal with more serious grappling attacks. Everything depends on the realism of the training method and techniques.

The important thing to consider is the answer to opening question of what your training goal is. If it's to socialize, get a blackbelt, or such things then anything will do. If part of the goal is wanting some transfer to technical self-defense, the second question is important. And if any part of the goal is to be able to deal with violent attack without hurting the poor thug, lay off the crack pipe and put away the Superman cape. Violent criminals deserve to have their eyeballs crushed out of their sockets, and giving a serious attacker a millimeter of slack is just plain stupid. Let's not get too carried away with non-violent philosophy and looking pretty, Ueshiba and other top Aikido people made it pretty clear that the capacity for extreme violence is part of the deal. Without that it's not a martial art, and one thing we can be pretty sure of is that the pedigree of martial arts is life and death combat.
Hello Dan.

I think you are missing part of the point, in the respect that I do agree with a lot of your arguments in that last post.

So yes 3rd form is exactly that a prelude to being punched or stabbed or may be you are grappling standing up.
We train in that as well, as well we train against a pull and push for each attack. and you can do them static, in movement and leading.

But even with that this type curriculum is not really a gage of good self defence, as you rightly said it how you train in it.
And it does not replace pressure testing (active resistance and trying to counter)

It just gives a broader context on how to use a given "technique" and gives different type of resistance and shows that some are really contrived in a given situation. I think it is Roman or Don (sorry I can not remember) who said in their aikido experience to 3 or 4 form of attack using mainly the leading aspect from the technique.

Yes static i.e. uke grab you by the shoulder and then do nothing is not realistic, but uke can actively resist the technique (i.e. trying to prevent it to happens but not trying to counter it as that stage), and that point out to what you need to be in control of the technique from start to finish.

It kind of shows as well that if you do not hit him, nothing is going to work. Ie unless you isolate the arm from the body (by hitting the face in that instance), he can escape at any time, and it give you a chance of protecting you from his second hand, as we assume that he will try to hit us with that other hand or something in it (Which is why we do not attack the arm directly).

Basically the point of all that is to bring to your attention that there is a part of the opposite point of your views worth considering.
It is not the deadly for the street but there is aside of aikido that is easier to use and comprehend in terms of self defence until the time we can tenchin out of the way all the time and make my opponent cock up reliably.

On the violence side, well you are not going to get any flak for me, I am on record here saying that martial arts are designed to break people in a consistently repeatable manner.

That being said as far as your mugger is concerned, for me it is not really about what he deserves or what terrible upbringing he had, all that matter to me is that my wife deserves the joy my wonderful presence that very day. (Though I grant you that sometimes, she may actually ponder that very comment).

it is true as well that i am member of a drinking club with an aikido problem :-)

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:52 AM   #203
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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No one is going to grab your wrist. They are going to punch and take your #@/8$ head off. Forget about wrist grabs. They serve no real self defense purpose.
Thank for that insightful view, Even I do not do whatever you though I did with my head, or I would earn lots of money in public displays.
Anyway, luckily we have punches as well then (pheew).

Not to be an arse, but I can se a few scenario when that would happen.
someone want me to stop drinking.
someone grab me so that is mate can clonk me.
someone want to prevent me to access my weapon (yeah baby yeah)
someone want to cuff me and I have not paid mistress Olga for the privilege.

But really, you know, first and second forms are a really good place to start, in fact it is so good pedagogically that I could almost believe that some put it is there purely for teaching purpose.

phil

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Old 09-12-2007, 11:58 AM   #204
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Just for yucks, here's a classic clip showing how much time you can count on to do a lapel grab counter. In this case by the time the guy is grabbed it's already too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKdZgeesw68
is that the proof that you do not need ground skill as it does not goes to grappling?

(sorry i coul not resist...)

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:02 PM   #205
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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William,

I was reading an interview on Aikidojournal of Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei. Interesting enough he discovered that he had to make modifications to his Aikido to make it effective. Apparently he had never encountered trying Aikido against a larger opponent. Isoyama Sensei was teaching a class to American military officers who were physically larger than he was. When he tired to apply koshinage on the officers, he stated, that he found that they could just step over him, no matter how he try to apply the technique, he was not able to throw them. The height difference prevented him from getting into a good hip position. So he had the idea of putting them across his shoulders instead of across his hips, and that's how he started using those techniques. Another very important point, is was he more interested in a technique working, verses sticking to some syllabus that may have ineffective techniques. He stated, "I wasn't trying to be rough or flashy, I was just trying to get the techniques to work. Necessity is the mother of invention!"

I think that this is one of the points that Dan Austin was alluding to. Sometimes you have to adapt to the environment that you are in no matter if it looks like Aikido or not. If Isoyama Sensei was forced to adjust his technique to the point of not being Aikido, or maybe it is Aikido, but not the Aikido that some recognize, then perhaps this a lesson to be learned. If you have to box a boxer, which really is nothing more than atemi, then the concept that Isoyama Sensei stated, "Necessity is the mother of invention", is applicable. If you have to wrestle the wrestler then,"Necessity is the mother of invention", is applicable.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=102
Salim,

I understood Dan's point..However, it was wrapped in too broad a generalization about Aikido. Aikido (as evidenced by Stan's interview of Isoyama Shihan) has been exposed to the West for over 60 years now. It is not a static form in the least but something that can be adapted to flow with your Uke's Attack.

One thing I do agree with is you have to train as you would fight but you have to learn to walk before you can run here. Expecting otherwise is foolish. Excellence in Aikido requires more training time just to get the basics as opposed to Boxing or Wrestling. It's just that simple.

That's why most folks who do well in Aikido are grounded in other Arts and what I tell a beginner who's frustrated with all the "wrist grabbing" is to go out and learn something else like MMA. That way you can appreciate what our Aikido is all about.
I have a Godan in Goju Ryu in class right now A Sandan in Shotokan, A Sandan in Tang Soo Do, and almost all our Students have a background in something else...
Make no mistake Salim...We practice Aikido...

Respectfully,

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 09-12-2007 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:08 PM   #206
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Phil Farmer wrote: View Post
Hope this helps and again, sorry for coming on the thread late in the game. It is an interesting discussion. On a personal level, I have to comment that my experience in multiple aikido dojo over the years has been wonderful and made my Yoseikan skills much better but that the two arts are practiced by folks for very different reasons. Any reason is a good one to do martial arts and budo, the way of stopping conflict, is to be respected in all of its legitimate forms but everyone needs to keep in mind, to compare aiki, even different styles, and then to say which is effective and which isn't, that is not the humility any of us have been taught by our own sensei. Good discussion but, budo above all, we are all of the same tree - - - budo.

Humbly,

Phil Farmer
Amen...

William Hazen
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:10 PM   #207
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
Very interesting, I did not know that. England, not so bad after all <g>
The modern law on belief is stated in R v Owino (1996)
A person may use such force as is [objectively] reasonable in the circumstances as he [subjectively] believes them to be.
To gain an acquittal, the defendant must fulfill a number of conditions. The defendant must believe, rightly or wrongly, that the attack is imminent.
Lord Griffith said in Beckford v R:
A man about to be attacked does not have to wait for his assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot; circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike.

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
Which is why we need those implants so that our thoughts can be recorded (by ourselves) for proof of correct behaviour <g>
.
Technically, the English common law assume that it did make sense to you at the time.

The bugbear is that it needs to make sense at posteriori for a hypothetic "reasonable man". :-)

phil

Last edited by philippe willaume : 09-12-2007 at 12:14 PM.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:31 PM   #208
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Yeah, well...if you should come across a "reasonable man" in your travels, please send him stateside...we are in grave need of them. Especially in government!

Best,
Ron (rare find, that...)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:59 PM   #209
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Yeah, well...if you should come across a "reasonable man" in your travels, please send him stateside...we are in grave need of them. Especially in government!

Best,
Ron (rare find, that...)
Would you you mind if we filled our seats first ......

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:19 PM   #210
phil farmer
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

What Ron said, a reasonable man please. First in politics and then on the street. Even a reasonable woman wouldn't hurt. And here in the States, in several states, laws have recently changed that now makes it possible to respond with deadly force based on feeling threatened with severe injury, no longer is the old, if you shoot him, pull him in the house. NOw, if he was in the house and is running across your yard, you can apparently shoot him. Geez, I wish they needed a social worker in Perth, I could stay with my friend Roy. Oh, wait, what about problems in parliament?????

Phil Farmer
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:48 PM   #211
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Hi folks,

Let's keep politics out of this thread, please. If you feel the need to discuss politics, please do so in the Open Discussions forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 09-12-2007, 02:44 PM   #212
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
No one is going to grab your wrist. They are going to punch and take your #@/8$ head off. Forget about wrist grabs. They serve no real self defense purpose.
I think this is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Aikidowaza. Wrist "grabs" serve two main functions as I understand it: 1. they provide a way of developing musubi (an exercise). 2. they are suppressions of the arm designed to preceed a punch, etc.
I think you can see how beneficial it might be to suppress the arm which might block your strike to the head. Many people just grab and hold on (which makes you just want to hit them), but you're supposed to suppress...again, per my understanding.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:29 PM   #213
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I think this is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Aikidowaza. Wrist "grabs" serve two main functions as I understand it: 1. they provide a way of developing musubi (an exercise). 2. they are suppressions of the arm designed to preceed a punch, etc.
I think you can see how beneficial it might be to suppress the arm which might block your strike to the head. Many people just grab and hold on (which makes you just want to hit them), but you're supposed to suppress...again, per my understanding.
Well there is also, grabbing someones hand so they can't use the weapon they are holding. It's pretty hard to "punch and take someones @#$% head off" if they are holding a 2 foot blade that out ranges you and makes more power then your empty handed strike.

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Old 09-12-2007, 08:25 PM   #214
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Phil Farmer wrote:

"...finding the way to blend the arts together in a manner that could be learned by the average student."

On some level that is encouraging, on another that is a very disturbing statement, since by definition the average student has never managed to reach a high level.

Could you give concrete examples of basic exercises, particularly solo ones, and what practitioners are aiming for when they do these?
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:24 PM   #215
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Phil Farmer wrote: View Post
Yoseikan Budo is not Yoseikan Aikido. Yoseikan Budo is its own art developed by Hiroo Mochizuki based on many different experiences with karate (shotokan and wado ryu), kempo (the time the family spent in China), boxing (Hiroo Sensei became a gold gloves boxer), judo, jiujitsu, aiki, savate (boxe francais), and even tai chi, plus the kobudo aspects. Hiroo Shihan explained his belief that what his father did, Yoseikan, should never have been called aikido but would have been more correctly defined as a soft jiujitsu.
The development of Yoseikan Budo is the direct result of testing those skills against all comers and finding what works. It continues to be refined on a daily basis by Shihan, his sons Mitchi and Kyoshi, and the many other international instructors of Yoseikan Budo.
Phil,

Thanks for the interesting post, sounds a lot like JKD. I was reading the Wikipedia entry on Yoseikan with interest, particularly the following excerpt:

"Master Hiroo improved on his father's system by adding a common link to all of the martial arts Yoseikan Budo utilizes. This is the "vibration" or "undulation" produced by the tanden - and called qi by the Chinese - that are used in every technique (atemis, throws, locks, weapons, etc.) while allowing the user to increase his power tremendously while remaining very lithe and supple in all situations."

There is an earlier reference to "shockwave" movement as well. To my eyes this seems to allude very much to the ongoing discussion of body skills that Rob brings up. Can you elaborate on this and how it is trained?
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:35 PM   #216
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
It looks to me he had plenty of time to try not to be a drunken floppy lettuce. He could have easily got his arms up over the grab, stiffen his body, straight-arm, crouch, whatever. Lots of things to do, plenty of time.
But great video Dan! Thanks!

Poor bystander number one, clocked on the chin, dozy mutt.
Hmm, while there may be about second from initial contact to the headbutt, he's shoved back off balance instantly. The real problem is he needed to have his hands between them when the guy invaded his space. It's too close to reasonably react, he would have eaten an untelegraphed punch just as well (like the poor sap on the way out the door). The guy's a dick, but you sure can't fault his execution and getaway. My point was that the grab is a secondary issue to avoiding the coming hits, so training grabs without simultaneous strikes isn't setting the difficulty dial very high. Glad you liked it though.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:47 PM   #217
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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In the 1950's he went to France and Europe and introduced Aiki to the Europeans (with O Sensei's permission). Minoru Sensei took matches with all comers and all styles and learned very quickly that one style did not work with everyone. When he came back from his trip, he told this to O Sensei, that aiki did not always work and that he had used his karate, judo, jiujitsu, basically his whole repetoire (which was massive in the man) to deal with boxers, savate, wrestling, etc.
I forgot to add: was this the first time the phrase "Your Aikido may be ineffective, mine is not" was ever uttered?
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:54 PM   #218
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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I forgot to add: was this the first time the phrase "Your Aikido may be ineffective, mine is not" was ever uttered?
Wow...Once again Aikido has found it's saviour...

William Hazen

So let me get this straight If someone agrees with you it's ok if they question you or disagree with your hypothesis they get insulted...

How sad...

Last edited by Aikibu : 09-12-2007 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:59 PM   #219
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

With all due respect Jun..This is my last post on this thread. No point in beating a dead horse.

William Hazen
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:14 PM   #220
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
With all due respect Jun..This is my last post on this thread. No point in beating a dead horse.

William Hazen
Hear him! Hear him!

I have trudged through the entire thread now since it began, considered offering a reasoned response to many of the more outrageous posts, but decided it would be futile. You can actually see the decline and fall of Western civilization as the thread sprawled...

Last edited by Dewey : 09-12-2007 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:29 PM   #221
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Wow...Once again Aikido has found it's saviour...

William Hazen

So let me get this straight If someone agrees with you it's ok if they question you or disagree with your hypothesis they get insulted...

How sad...
Huh? It was joke - people here often bandy about a phrase along the lines of "your Aikido may be ineffective, mine isn't". I was musing whether Ueshiba said that when told that aiki "didn't work". Never mind, go look for the worst you can imagine in another thread, you ray of sunshine you.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:48 PM   #222
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

sunshine?
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:06 AM   #223
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
I forgot to add: was this the first time the phrase "Your Aikido may be ineffective, mine is not" was ever uttered?
The interesting thing, is the lack of integrity that you find with some Aikidoist about the realities of Aiki. Minoru Sensei found out the Aiki does not always work, decades ago. How often do your hear that from today's Aikikai?
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:30 AM   #224
Dan Austin
Join Date: May 2007
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
sunshine?
Yes. My joke was intended to be pro-Ueshiba - I imagined him to be the one saying his aikido is effective. William apparently assumed the reverse, then tugged on the moderator's sleeve and stamped his feet. In similar fashion he's been condescendingly abrasive in his responses to me from the get-go, based on *his* assumptions of what I must mean. Whatever. Just wanted to clarify that his reading was not what I intended, and despite any spin attempts my view of Phil's Yoseikan Budo post is entirely positive.

If Aikido training makes people kinder and gentler, I shudder to think what a sweetheart William must have been before.
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:57 AM   #225
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

maybe he was "your worst nightmare...." Insert deep breathing, few grunts and snorts and Rambo music preferably the soft piano song played at the ending credits of First Blood with him walking off into the sunset. Would have rode his horse but that poor animal is dead from the beating it inflicted from this forum. If he were any tougher he'd rust.
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