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Old 09-10-2007, 09:53 PM   #176
Upyu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Hi Rob,

I've read your stuff with interest, but don't mistake what I'm getting at . There are useful things in the Asian arts. If I read you correctly you're not talking about a style per se, you're talking about applying body movement trainings to any style.
Not a body movement, a certain body skill.
When I say bodyskill, I mean exactly that.
Say for instance, the way a kyokushin guy executes a low kick is pretty different biomechanically than say, how a thai boxer will execute his low kick.

Take that difference, but multiply it. Long weapons training, as well as other exercises that've been discussed in various threads builds up a skill, movement "inside" the body that you can't learn from boxing or wrestling.

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
The fact remains that the most efficient way to learn to deal with boxing and wrestling is learning boxing and wrestling.
I dunno, I'd say that the most efficent way is to train "against" proficient boxers and wrestlers, but not necessarily learn what they're doing. If you do the same thing that they do, then it simply boils down to who moves faster, has more power, better reaction time, knows the sneakier combo. Because you have a skill that they don't it gives you an upper hand that evens the playing field.

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
What you can add to it with your body trainings I don't know, but you still have to apply it in the technical context. In other words, your body trainings aren't suddenly going to make a shotokan block a good way to deal with a 1-2 compared to slipping it, if you follow my drift.
If you ask me, a shotokan upper block is a horrible example if only because shotokan isn'T a) traditional really, b) as far as I know they don't teach any of this stuff.

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
And they must be hard to learn since they're obscure if nothing else, whereas finding an MMA gym, boxing coach, or wrestling coach is easy. So I'm curious to see if you can take the world by storm with this stuff, but even in the best scenario I suspect it would be an adjunct to MMA and not a substitute.
Well considering the fact that this stuff is about completely rewiring the body...I'd say it is in its own way a substitute.
To compete in MMA you have to fight against MMAers. There's no getting around that. But if you want to be really good, you have to do something different from everyone around you.
The only thing I can say is, you should get out and find someone that's capable in this stuff so you can get a first hand feel.
Akuzawa will be in San Fran and Seattle this november,
Dan Harden and Mike Sigman have been pretty open about showing this stuff as far as I know, and if you dig around I'm sure you could find someone else that's always willing to show you the "difference."

You can spout endless rhetoric over the net, but really it boils down to something really simple... ITHTBF (it has to be felt).
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:15 PM   #177
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
However I think it is very abusive to say that MMA is close to gold standard for self defence.
Phil,
It's difficult to convey exactly what one means so that all readers come away with your intended meaning. I would like to think I have a mature outlook on martial arts, since I've been involved in it for a long time. You have to realize that martial arts training is a hobby with a number of benefits, but most of it has little to do with self-defense. I did not say "MMA is close to the gold standard for self-defense", I said "gold standard syllabus of realistic unarmed technique and training method." For the purpose of discussion I am deliberately avoiding edged weapons and most issues of "real" self-defense. I'm engaging in a sort of dispassionate dissection of how reliable certain techniques are, being open to look fairly at any style and what it has to offer - not because it really matters, but this is a discussion board. For "real" self-defense, techniques A and B may both be largely irrelevant compared to more important issues like avoiding stupid and dangerous behavior, but that doesn't mean it's unfair to say B is a much better technique than A.

It's difficult to explain this sort of perspective without endless writing, but when someone periodically asks whether Aikido is effective, you know what they're asking. They probably can't understand a multi-style holistic perspective until they get that experience. They just want to know if training in Aikido will give them the ability to defend themselves, and this is a loaded question. They probably don't understand that any martial arts training is a minor factor in serious "real" self-defense. But typically they desire to have the ability to beat the crap out of people, whether or not they use that ability, and despite all the issues of what is involved in real self-defense this is a reasonable expectation to have going into an area called "martial" arts. They're asking for recommendations regarding a dentist, so people talking about how much they like their chiropractor misses the mark. As they gain experience they can put things in better perspective, but it's simply untrue that all techniques and training methods are equally valid in producing usable skill. There are also plenty of deluded or downright unscrupulous teachers out there who will say or imply that the training they provide gives their students usable skill when it doesn't.

There are many caveats and footnotes that go along with everything, which is why I have said to the extent martial arts training carries over to self-defense, Aikido's defensive mindset is legally important. MMA training needs to be put in perspective as well. You fight like you train, and it's important to keep in mind that tackling people and choking them out is not always a wise approach (but you *can* get away with it, even in a dark parking lot at night sometimes, and concrete is not a big deal). However, having the ability to *avoid* being tackled and choked out is very useful, and the techniques and training of MMA vastly outstrip Aikido in producing this skill. See what I'm getting at? Aikido is a good umbrella mindset, but technique is technique. 10,000 kotegaishis will do little to build any reflexes that will serve you against someone who really wants to beat you. Competitive training builds skills that are impossible to get any other way, and they mimic "real" self-defense better and have far more carryover than cooperative training. It's also more challenging and interesting for that reason, IMO. And incidentally, MMA fighters are not so brainless that they think there's a referee in a street fight! Take a look at Bas Rutten's series on street tactics for example recommendations like the good 'ol kick in the nuts and trash can lid face smash. No matter how you slice it, having real ability to inflict mayhem on fully resisting opponents gives you the choices to use it intelligently (including preferably never), while not having real ability limits you. This is why I recommend to anybody who asks "Is Aikido effective" that they go get some real competitive ability to start their journey into martial arts. The rest (including Aikido) may make more sense much later. In other words I believe it's fair to give a short answer of "no, it's not effective". It's also less typing, although it risks ruffling feathers here and there.

Last edited by Dan Austin : 09-10-2007 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:24 PM   #178
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Robert John wrote: View Post
I dunno, I'd say that the most efficent way is to train "against" proficient boxers and wrestlers, but not necessarily learn what they're doing. If you do the same thing that they do, then it simply boils down to who moves faster, has more power, better reaction time, knows the sneakier combo. Because you have a skill that they don't it gives you an upper hand that evens the playing field.
Well, unless you can move your head out of the way of their punches faster, I don't know how much it can help. As they say, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Seriously, the reflex to do something different doesn't always make sense. I can only box to my level of talent, but that doesn't mean I'll have more luck another way. Besides, how long do I need to train to get this 4-5 year equivalent edge of experience you're claiming? 6-7 years?
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:43 PM   #179
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
I dunno, I'd say that the most efficent way is to train "against" proficient boxers and wrestlers, but not necessarily learn what they're doing. If you do the same thing that they do, then it simply boils down to who moves faster, has more power, better reaction time, knows the sneakier combo. Because you have a skill that they don't it gives you an upper hand that evens the playing field.
Sorry to be blunt, but that's wrong. You'll be forced to play their game, whether you like it or not.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:37 PM   #180
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Sorry to be blunt, but that's wrong. You'll be forced to play their game, whether you like it or not.
Not in my experiance...

If you're "playing thier game" your practice is weak

William Hazen
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:38 PM   #181
Upyu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Well, unless you can move your head out of the way of their punches faster, I don't know how much it can help. As they say, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Seriously, the reflex to do something different doesn't always make sense. I can only box to my level of talent, but that doesn't mean I'll have more luck another way. Besides, how long do I need to train to get this 4-5 year equivalent edge of experience you're claiming? 6-7 years?
I dunno, I've been doing grappling for less than 2 years, and I do fine against guys that have 5+ years submission grappling experience over here in Japan. So you can take it for what its worth.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:41 PM   #182
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Not in my experiance...

If you're "playing thier game" your practice is weak

William Hazen
Ooh... you know hurts so much, but true.

Then again, there is a truth to what Roman says. Most people are forced to play a boxer's or wrestlers game.
The ability to truly not play their game wouldn't be special if it were easy.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:57 PM   #183
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Not a body movement, a certain body skill.
When I say bodyskill, I mean exactly that.
Say for instance, the way a kyokushin guy executes a low kick is pretty different biomechanically than say, how a thai boxer will execute his low kick.

Take that difference, but multiply it. Long weapons training, as well as other exercises that've been discussed in various threads builds up a skill, movement "inside" the body that you can't learn from boxing or wrestling.

I dunno, I'd say that the most efficent way is to train "against" proficient boxers and wrestlers, but not necessarily learn what they're doing. If you do the same thing that they do, then it simply boils down to who moves faster, has more power, better reaction time, knows the sneakier combo. Because you have a skill that they don't it gives you an upper hand that evens the playing field.

If you ask me, a shotokan upper block is a horrible example if only because shotokan isn'T a) traditional really, b) as far as I know they don't teach any of this stuff.

Well considering the fact that this stuff is about completely rewiring the body...I'd say it is in its own way a substitute.
To compete in MMA you have to fight against MMAers. There's no getting around that. But if you want to be really good, you have to do something different from everyone around you.
The only thing I can say is, you should get out and find someone that's capable in this stuff so you can get a first hand feel.
Akuzawa will be in San Fran and Seattle this november,
Dan Harden and Mike Sigman have been pretty open about showing this stuff as far as I know, and if you dig around I'm sure you could find someone else that's always willing to show you the "difference."

You can spout endless rhetoric over the net, but really it boils down to something really simple... ITHTBF (it has to be felt).
Amen...Excellent post. I will take being put on my head over You Tube any day of the week and twice on Sundays...

Maybe it's because I am Irish and a graduate of the school of hard knocks starting with Pops and Sister Mary Slapupside Ye Head Catholic School. LOL

Getting back up after falling a million times is the only way I have learned.

William Hazen
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:00 AM   #184
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
I dunno, I've been doing grappling for less than 2 years, and I do fine against guys that have 5+ years submission grappling experience over here in Japan. So you can take it for what its worth.
I'm not sure what "do fine" means. Resisting getting tapped is a lot easier than tapping other people, especially no-gi. If you can tap people with several years more training on you, that would be pretty good.
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:03 AM   #185
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Ooh... you know hurts so much, but true.

Then again, there is a truth to what Roman says. Most people are forced to play a boxer's or wrestlers game.
The ability to truly not play their game wouldn't be special if it were easy.
Yeah I agree you have to play thier game until (after practice hard enough and long enough) you learn yours, and how to extend ki aka impose your will as Mr. Couture loves to say...

Not a dig at you Roman so much as a testimony to develop excellence in whatever you choose as your Martial Practice.

William Hazen
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Old 09-11-2007, 06:23 AM   #186
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

hello dan
I see where you are coming from and it makes sense to me.
I think it is as well very representative of this discussion
Each of our argument, we use the relevance of the context in which the art is applied does, and hence a different answer.

I think we are defiantly in agreement on the value of MMA in self defence and we have the same reason for that
I think we agree on the relevance of the self defence context and how it applies to MMA, aikido or even TMA (as in BJJ, JJ. Muy thai, karate, kung fu, wing chung, savate and so on)
They can all deal with your average pisshead (or group of there off)
And none of theme is that directly useful against deceptive thugs/muggers.

From what you said about kote geishi and atemi, I think that the reason of the difference of opinion is in what your experience of aikido is and what others ( myself included) experience of aikido is.

Just as an example this is our basic from of attack, we practice 9 techniques from each of them. There is at least one strike (and a proper one) in each of them, (and you can replace the whole technique by continuing striking), you do that from static, dynamic (you create the movement) and ki no nogare

1st form= same wrist grab (right to right)
2nd from= opposite wrist grab (as in right to left)
3rd form= opposite shoulder grab
4th form= front lapel grab with one hand
5th form= shomen (raising and descending)
6th form= yokomen
7th form= punch to the abdomen
8th form = collar grab from behind
9th form= opposite elbow grab
10th from= grab one hand with both hands
11th form= grab both hands from the front
12th form= grab both shoulder from the front
13th form = grab both wrists from the back
14th form= grab both elbows from the back
15th from= grab both shoulders from the back
16th form=grab one wrist and strangulation/choke from the back with the other.

This is jus as an exemple, so that you can put it in perspective with your own experience.
phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:50 AM   #187
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Ooh... you know hurts so much, but true.

Then again, there is a truth to what Roman says. Most people are forced to play a boxer's or wrestlers game.
The ability to truly not play their game wouldn't be special if it were easy.
Not to play the devil advocate….(especially since I am all the way on your side of the fence)
But I think Roman and Dan point is that aikido, the way it is taught, (i.e. the way it was taught and demonstrated to them) do not teach you how to play your game.
Personally I do not agree that it does apply to aikido as whole but there are certainly occurrences of that in aikido.

To make things "worse", I think MMA is very good at defining and polishing your game. (On that point I agree with Dan and Roman)

In that context, Dan has a point about aikido techniques being inefficient, partly due to reason Robert advanced but as well because that in some schools/styles, they try to make you run before you can walk.
On the other hand is there are schools/styles that are more on the "make it work before making it flow" type of philosophy.

Ps all countries are not equal regarding self defense, In the UK you can not carry a riffle a gun, a knife, a sword or any implement as a mean of self defense (unless professional).
It is against the law and on the top of that it is a big torpedo in you self defense case….. So it is back to old way self defense…:-)

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-11-2007, 06:48 PM   #188
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Dan I humbly suggest you check your facts and do further research on the subject.

William Hazen
William,

I was reading an interview on Aikidojournal of Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei. Interesting enough he discovered that he had to make modifications to his Aikido to make it effective. Apparently he had never encountered trying Aikido against a larger opponent. Isoyama Sensei was teaching a class to American military officers who were physically larger than he was. When he tired to apply koshinage on the officers, he stated, that he found that they could just step over him, no matter how he try to apply the technique, he was not able to throw them. The height difference prevented him from getting into a good hip position. So he had the idea of putting them across his shoulders instead of across his hips, and that's how he started using those techniques. Another very important point, is was he more interested in a technique working, verses sticking to some syllabus that may have ineffective techniques. He stated, "I wasn't trying to be rough or flashy, I was just trying to get the techniques to work. Necessity is the mother of invention!"

I think that this is one of the points that Dan Austin was alluding to. Sometimes you have to adapt to the environment that you are in no matter if it looks like Aikido or not. If Isoyama Sensei was forced to adjust his technique to the point of not being Aikido, or maybe it is Aikido, but not the Aikido that some recognize, then perhaps this a lesson to be learned. If you have to box a boxer, which really is nothing more than atemi, then the concept that Isoyama Sensei stated, "Necessity is the mother of invention", is applicable. If you have to wrestle the wrestler then,"Necessity is the mother of invention", is applicable.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=102
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:01 PM   #189
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Not in my experiance...

If you're "playing thier game" your practice is weak
Quote:
I dunno, I've been doing grappling for less than 2 years, and I do fine against guys that have 5+ years submission grappling experience over here in Japan.
Give me a break guys! Now I have to resort to the oldest anti-bullshit phrase on the net: Video or it didn't happen.

Theorizing is one thing...making a claim is completely different. You figured out a way to employ these secret skillz you have to get "the upper hand" on a boxer or wrestler? Please share. Because if they existed, boxers and wrestlers would be learning them to get an upper hand on other boxers or wrestlers.

Here's your experienced wrestler...your job is to stay on your feet or take him down. You'll find that what you'll mostly be doing is wrestling, unless someone here can be kind and share something new with me, as I'm always open to new things.
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:19 PM   #190
Upyu
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

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Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Give me a break guys! Now I have to resort to the oldest anti-bullshit phrase on the net: Video or it didn't happen.

Theorizing is one thing...making a claim is completely different. You figured out a way to employ these secret skillz you have to get "the upper hand" on a boxer or wrestler? Please share. Because if they existed, boxers and wrestlers would be learning them to get an upper hand on other boxers or wrestlers.

Here's your experienced wrestler...your job is to stay on your feet or take him down. You'll find that what you'll mostly be doing is wrestling, unless someone here can be kind and share something new with me, as I'm always open to new things.
Actually like Dan <Austin> said, playing a defensive game, a la staying on your feet(without sprawling) is the easy part. Taking him down takes more skill.

Anyways, if you go back to previous posts to people that've met some of those people with these skills, you'll see all of them will say that this stuff has to be felt to be understood.

Liang Shou-yu is in Canada, a bit far from you granted (he's in Vancouver), Akuzawa's going to be in Seattle in November, Mike Sigman has been open about showing this stuff as well as Dan Harden, need I re-iterate? I'm starting to feel like a broken record here.
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:53 PM   #191
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Didn't really read much of the posts other than the one I replied too. I've conversed with many net people who claim there's a sensei x at seminar z who will prove me wrong, but seeing as no one is bothering getting this stuff on youtube, I get the impression it must not be that special.

I've looked up Mr.Sigman, and all I find is some guy on internal stuff, with no mention of boxing or wrestling anywhere. Do I have the right guy?

http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-stren.../interview.htm

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 09-11-2007 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:58 PM   #192
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Just as an example this is our basic from of attack, we practice 9 techniques from each of them. There is at least one strike (and a proper one) in each of them, (and you can replace the whole technique by continuing striking), you do that from static, dynamic (you create the movement) and ki no nogare

1st form= same wrist grab (right to right)
2nd from= opposite wrist grab (as in right to left)
3rd form= opposite shoulder grab
4th form= front lapel grab with one hand
5th form= shomen (raising and descending)
6th form= yokomen
7th form= punch to the abdomen
8th form = collar grab from behind
9th form= opposite elbow grab
10th from= grab one hand with both hands
11th form= grab both hands from the front
12th form= grab both shoulder from the front
13th form = grab both wrists from the back
14th form= grab both elbows from the back
15th from= grab both shoulders from the back
16th form=grab one wrist and strangulation/choke from the back with the other.

This is jus as an exemple, so that you can put it in perspective with your own experience.
phil
I think every school is going to be different to one degree or another. The question for every person is "What is the training goal?", followed by "How well does this curriculum serve the goal?".

It's difficult to comment without seeing it, but here for example you have 16 x 9 = 144 variations involving many situations which would likely not occur in a real confrontation, or which would be different enough to require radical changes in response. Who is going to grab both your hands, or one of yours with both of theirs?!? If someone were to grab your sleeve, it would only be so that they could rain punches on your head more easily. Such a grab when it occurs is simply the prelude to a hit a fraction of a second later. Beyond teaching basic movement principles, following this sort of curriculum for too long probably wouldn't lead to much with technical self-defense carryover. To be blunt, wristlocks and other standing armwrestling are best for convincing your friends you're a super-ninja, they are not of much real use against an opponent who represents a real threat. It's nice to know, but it's suitable for low-level or very constrained conflicts, and generally not worth spending years on unless it's typical for your job to have to try to control people this way. For anything worth worrying about, there is no getting around the notion of the importance of atemi, and being able to deal with more serious grappling attacks. Everything depends on the realism of the training method and techniques.

The important thing to consider is the answer to opening question of what your training goal is. If it's to socialize, get a blackbelt, or such things then anything will do. If part of the goal is wanting some transfer to technical self-defense, the second question is important. And if any part of the goal is to be able to deal with violent attack without hurting the poor thug, lay off the crack pipe and put away the Superman cape. Violent criminals deserve to have their eyeballs crushed out of their sockets, and giving a serious attacker a millimeter of slack is just plain stupid. Let's not get too carried away with non-violent philosophy and looking pretty, Ueshiba and other top Aikido people made it pretty clear that the capacity for extreme violence is part of the deal. Without that it's not a martial art, and one thing we can be pretty sure of is that the pedigree of martial arts is life and death combat.

Ego and practice are different things, and while the practice of Aikido can make one more peaceful in everyday life, this is ideally the way one should approach all martial art. In that sense one can say it's the person and not the art, since the most violently capable martial artist can be a nice guy, or the Aikido guy can be a complete jerk. Spirituality, philosophy, emotional maturity, and technique are largely separate domains. Promote peace but be ready for war, 'cause lots of people suck.
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:15 PM   #193
Dan Austin
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Just for yucks, here's a classic clip showing how much time you can count on to do a lapel grab counter. In this case by the time the guy is grabbed it's already too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKdZgeesw68
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:03 AM   #194
salim
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
hello dan
I see where you are coming from and it makes sense to me.
I think it is as well very representative of this discussion
Each of our argument, we use the relevance of the context in which the art is applied does, and hence a different answer.

I think we are defiantly in agreement on the value of MMA in self defence and we have the same reason for that
I think we agree on the relevance of the self defence context and how it applies to MMA, aikido or even TMA (as in BJJ, JJ. Muy thai, karate, kung fu, wing chung, savate and so on)
They can all deal with your average pisshead (or group of there off)
And none of theme is that directly useful against deceptive thugs/muggers.

From what you said about kote geishi and atemi, I think that the reason of the difference of opinion is in what your experience of aikido is and what others ( myself included) experience of aikido is.

Just as an example this is our basic from of attack, we practice 9 techniques from each of them. There is at least one strike (and a proper one) in each of them, (and you can replace the whole technique by continuing striking), you do that from static, dynamic (you create the movement) and ki no nogare

1st form= same wrist grab (right to right)
2nd from= opposite wrist grab (as in right to left)
3rd form= opposite shoulder grab
4th form= front lapel grab with one hand
5th form= shomen (raising and descending)
6th form= yokomen
7th form= punch to the abdomen
8th form = collar grab from behind
9th form= opposite elbow grab
10th from= grab one hand with both hands
11th form= grab both hands from the front
12th form= grab both shoulder from the front
13th form = grab both wrists from the back
14th form= grab both elbows from the back
15th from= grab both shoulders from the back
16th form=grab one wrist and strangulation/choke from the back with the other.

This is jus as an exemple, so that you can put it in perspective with your own experience.
phil
No one is going to grab your wrist. They are going to punch and take your #@/8$ head off. Forget about wrist grabs. They serve no real self defense purpose.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:40 AM   #195
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 979
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Jeff Davidson wrote: View Post
It's been a while since we've posted, but we have a new version of Aiki-Boxing out on youtube if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

Any commentary or suggestions?

Thanks!

Jeff D.
http://www.usaikido.com
Looks interesting.

One future direction to go in might be to start looking at some ideas instead of specific techniques. For instance, given that Aikido responds to all othe lead hand attacks by evading but staying close enough to do something immediately, how would you apply that against a jab? What opportunities present themselves going to the outside, or if the jab retracts before you could grab it? When you go to the inside, into the path of the rear hand, that's when you would want to add in an atemi to forestall a rear hand attack. You may want to do a drill where you see if your atemi can beat his rear hand.

Although you could do that sort of thing with headgear and boxing gloves, you may want to slow down and take it easy without protection. Sometimes you get more out of slowing down and grinding things out.

Just my two cents.
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Old 09-12-2007, 02:05 AM   #196
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Didn't really read much of the posts other than the one I replied too. I've conversed with many net people who claim there's a sensei x at seminar z who will prove me wrong, but seeing as no one is bothering getting this stuff on youtube, I get the impression it must not be that special.

I've looked up Mr.Sigman, and all I find is some guy on internal stuff, with no mention of boxing or wrestling anywhere. Do I have the right guy?

http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-stren.../interview.htm
Yes you have the right guy. And I'm pretty sure he could show you some body mechanics that would take you a while to wrap your head around.
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Old 09-12-2007, 02:15 AM   #197
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Didn't really read much of the posts other than the one I replied too. I've conversed with many net people who claim there's a sensei x at seminar z who will prove me wrong, but seeing as no one is bothering getting this stuff on youtube, I get the impression it must not be that special.

I've looked up Mr.Sigman, and all I find is some guy on internal stuff, with no mention of boxing or wrestling anywhere. Do I have the right guy?

http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-stren.../interview.htm
Yes that's the guy.
If you do a search there's a bunch of people from Aikiweb that met up with him and myself back in Feb.

Akuzawa is on the net doing stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4GOE...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQ...elated&search=

All of the videos above are simply demos of basic expressions of some of these body mechanics, and if they look simple, I suggest you try it yourself.
Just remember Ark's about 63kg, while most of the guys he demos against are about 85kg+.
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Old 09-12-2007, 03:24 AM   #198
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Just for yucks, here's a classic clip showing how much time you can count on to do a lapel grab counter. In this case by the time the guy is grabbed it's already too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKdZgeesw68
It looks to me he had plenty of time to try not to be a drunken floppy lettuce. He could have easily got his arms up over the grab, stiffen his body, straight-arm, crouch, whatever. Lots of things to do, plenty of time.
But great video Dan! Thanks!

Poor bystander number one, clocked on the chin, dozy mutt.
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:37 AM   #199
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
And that is exactly why, most of self defence case are either ambush or have the attacker start from a closed distance.
The point is that usually the attacker(s) stack up the deck on their favour before the attack.. Hence Mister Thompson fence and pre-emptive strike, (In England pre-emptive strike can and have been justified in self defence case).
Very interesting, I did not know that. England, not so bad after all <g>

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
The fact that the guy you sat on is the original aggressor and you had valid cause will amount to nothing as it is very easy for them to propose that actually believed that their friend was in an imminent and unavoidable threat.
Which is why we need those implants so that our thoughts can be recorded (by ourselves) for proof of correct behaviour <g>

I hear you, that is a real issue that gives me plenty of headaches, and which must be thought about---as for those of us who carry (or have carried) firearms---long in advance of any need to make use of weapons or self-defence training. All too often, physical reality and legal reality have no overlap, except that one wishes to be present in person at one's hearing rather than recovering in hospital or residing in the local morgue.
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:54 AM   #200
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Re: Aiki-Boxing

Quote:
Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Well, unless you can move your head out of the way of their punches faster, I don't know how much it can help. As they say, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Seriously, the reflex to do something different doesn't always make sense. I can only box to my level of talent, but that doesn't mean I'll have more luck another way. Besides, how long do I need to train to get this 4-5 year equivalent edge of experience you're claiming? 6-7 years?
No argument that without hard training no theoretical advantage is going to happen in reality. To comment on what Rob is talking about: "how" to "move the head out of the way" while still staying connected and able to move the whole body offensively, to not lose balance while taking and receiving contact. There is training out there that is different from what boxers learn to do.
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