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Old 04-12-2002, 09:37 AM   #26
Greg Jennings
Dojo: S&G BJJ
Location: Springboro, OH
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Re: Bunkai ... hidden

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Bunkai can be the many things hidden which will stop, or immobilize from injury, or as I have alluded to ... pressure points also known as excruciating pain?
There are two discussions going on. One about finishing techniques, the other about the meaning of the term "bunkai".

I have nothing to add about "finishing techniques" except that the meaning of the formal finish in Daito Ryu is well-known and documented.

As to the other discussion, I'll reiterate, "bunkai" does not mean "finishing techniques" nor does it mean "things hidden".

It simply means:
1. To find the meaning of.
2. Analysis.
3. Demarcation.

The same term can also mean something like a "branch" or "chapter". I'm not sure, but I think it is a homonym.

Words have meaning. I think it just spreads confusion to make up our own definition of them.

Best,

Greg Jennings
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Old 04-12-2002, 11:00 AM   #27
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
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Bunkai ... meaning?

It is said a single phrase in Japanese can be interpreted a thousand ways with a thousand different meanings, where English language might have but ten.

Move on to the spirit of the question.

How about, do you explore with your class or sensei other possiblilities beyond the normal pin or technique.

Or when you get to a throw or a pin and say the attacker is damaged but still trying to fight or kill you, could you have ended the conflict sooner, with less injury or damage to your attacker?

Or .... etc.... etc.... is there something more you could have done?

Please, I was interested in the application of practice and its knowledge, not a vocabulary lesson? Thanks.
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Old 04-12-2002, 02:40 PM   #28
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
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Thumbs up Re: Bunkai ... meaning?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Move on to the spirit of the question.

How about, do you explore with your class or sensei other possiblilities beyond the normal pin or technique.
Not to side-track this topic, but there is another apsect of teaching 'finishing moves' that an instructor must consider. There are legal ramifications for instructors who teach their students to 'finish' their attackers ...by this, I mean, inflicting additional physical damage on an attacker AFTER you have defeated the attack and have control over the attacker.

Here's a very good article that touches on this very subject: Self Defense Law and the Martial Artist by Peter Hobart, Esq.
http://www.koryubudo.com/articles/general-4.htm

Under the heading of: "Martial arts teachers' liability", the author/lawyer explains the concept of 'Agency':

"Under the Theory of Agency, the principal is liable for unlawful acts which he causes to be done through an agent. There are three possible ways in which a martial arts instructor might be held liable as the principal for the unlawful acts of his students, as agents. First, if the instructor appears to ratify or approve of unlawful conduct, he may be held liable for the commission of such acts. Thus, a dojo which encourages the use of excessive force, or lethal force in inappropriate situations may be seen to ratify and approve of unlawful conduct. Similarly, an instructor who continues to teach a student who has abused his knowledge may be held responsible, if not liable, for subsequent torts.

Second, an instructor may be held liable for having entrusted a student with Ďan extremely dangerous instrumentality'. "[w]hen an instrumentality passes from the control of a person, his responsibility for injuries inflicted by it ceases. However, when an injury is caused by an exceptionally dangerous instrumentality, or one which may be dangerous if improperly used, a former owner or possessor may ... be charged with responsibility for [its] use...." The implications for instructors who teach potentially lethal techniques is clear."

...if you want to read the entire article, please go to the web site listed above.

...just some food for thought!

Last edited by Brian Vickery : 04-12-2002 at 02:43 PM.

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 04-12-2002, 02:59 PM   #29
akiy
 
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Re: Re: Bunkai ... meaning?

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Vickery
Not to side-track this topic, but there is another apsect of teaching 'finishing moves' that an instructor must consider. There are legal ramifications for instructors who teach their students to 'finish' their attackers ...by this, I mean, inflicting additional physical damage on an attacker AFTER you have defeated the attack and have control over the attacker.
Good information, Brian!

I personally take these kinds of "finishing moves" and such to be like how some people interpret chiburi in iaido -- as a way to maintain zanshin through the entire technique.

(Although my own experience with doing such has been pretty limited, people I know who have done makiwara tameshigiri (as I'm sure you have, Brian) have commented doing a chiburi movement probably really wouldn't get any blood off the sword -- especially not enough to immediately replace it into the saya! Better to cut a piece of clothing off your felled opponent and wipe that sword clean.)

We don't do such "finishing moves" at our dojo. Better, in my mind at least, to control uke from the beginning and maintain the control throughout.

-- Jun

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Old 04-12-2002, 03:11 PM   #30
Erik
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Suppose, you've just harmonized with Tom. Tom is pinned and no longer a threat despite his clawed appendages. Suddenly, Jerry appears ready to do great bodily harm to you. I don't know about anyone else but I don't want Tom getting back up while I'm harmonizing with Jerry. He's a little guy but he can cause havoc. And the two of them together?
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Old 04-12-2002, 03:19 PM   #31
Brian Vickery
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Thumbs down Re: Re: Re: Bunkai ... meaning?

Quote:
Originally posted by akiy

I personally take these kinds of "finishing moves" and such to be like how some people interpret chiburi in iaido -- as a way to maintain zanshin through the entire technique.

-- Jun
Hi Jun,

We are told the same thing in Shinkendo & Toyama Ryu in regards to 'chiburi' ...it's more of a way to 'punctuate' a kata in a definitive manner, rather than an attempt to sling the blood & guts off your sword.

'Finishing moves' can have the same function, a way to punctuate your aikido defenses in a definitive way, not really having the intention of inflicting unnecessary damage to your attacker. But I feel the instructor needs to teach his students that that is what he is doing, so they CLEARLY understand that in a real self defense situation, they are NOT to do this.

Regards,

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 04-12-2002, 08:24 PM   #32
MaylandL
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Great post Brian. The article that you provided has some excellent points and issues for all martial arts students and instuctors to ponder on. Australia has similar legal requirements for martial artists.

As for using "finishing techniques" I would agree with Jun that it would be better to maintain control of Uke through out and zanshin.

As for multiple attackers, its the use of reasonable force to deter an attack and defend yourself. I think multiple attacks falls into the aggravating and mitigating factors category.

Mayland
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Old 04-15-2002, 04:49 PM   #33
Bruce Baker
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Killed that thread

Maybe I am getting old ...

But ...

If you pin somebody, even with giving them an injury, why are you doing it, and does it keep the person from attacking or hurting you?

I know there is more, if you look for it.

Even though O'Sensei gave us a safe practice method, how did he make it safe? Safe from what?

There are different ways and means to immobilize and injure your opponent without even thinking about going into the big death thing? If you can find five or more places/ways that stop an attacker from recovering from a technique or pin, or understand what can be physically injured verses lifethreatening, then you have tried to stay in harmony with Aikido while understanding the serious repercussions that could happen.

I was taught that finding the purpose of these things from the mercenary point of view allowed you to look inside the secrets of the technique with new eyes? It also allowed one to understand the mindset of an attacker ... a place you do not go into but use Aikido to overcome with your clarity of thought.

Clarity of seeing what could be verses the practiced methods of Aikido practice, should give you enlightenment to things hidden in practice or technique .... bunkai ... or so I have seen demonstrated hundreds of times by dozens of teachers.

Although we have soften our training and we peacefully practice, at one time these were arts of war? I would think seeking bunkai would make the teacher and the students more aware of safety and the seriousness of MA practice? Even Aikido.

Again:

Do your teachers ever show you the serious side of your safe practice, or techniques?

(I know if I bring up that third pressure point on the same meridian there is gonna be a fuss ... too late ... )
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