Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-04-2007, 02:53 AM   #226
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
You missed my point. And yes even big strong guys like you do get mugged or worse. I don't think its something you can be too confident about. Self defense Is about common sense and luck.
I would put common sense under the umbrella of awareness. As a scientist and mathematician, I would also put luck in the same category of awareness. In any situation, which from the point of view of mathematics I will call a game, as in game theory, luck is about probability. If you are aware of the numbers relevant to your game, and other facts, specifically human factors, you can make luck be on your side. This is what you see with great poker players. How many unknown people with no experience/training have won the world poker tour? This is a legitimate question as I have no idea, but I would be surprised if the number was not zero!

I am about to start a new thread on stats, so I will leave most of the stuff I want to talk about to that.

Regards,

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 05:09 AM   #227
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Doesn't mathematics and games have rules and boundaries? The street doesn't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 05:40 AM   #228
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Online
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

There are rules and boundries to anything and everything. You just need to know them.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 05:44 AM   #229
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Consistent hard mindful training will develop awareness.

Regards,
Why are you dodging?

I could play chess with that definition. Will it give me self defense skills?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 06:10 AM   #230
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Why are you dodging?
I am not dodging anything. Mochizuki Kancho said consistent hard mindful training develops awareness. He also said awareness is the key to the superior techniques of O'Sensei. I am trying to share the insight of a great budo master.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I could play chess with that definition. Will it give me self defense skills?
The japanese think so. I recently posted the story of the Tea Master

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...402#post188402

you can read that.

Regards,

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 07:40 AM   #231
philippe willaume
 
philippe willaume's Avatar
Location: windsor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 317
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

here is teh link I mentioned

http://bisons.net/wrestle_box.htm
http://bisons.net/punchingps.htm

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 08:28 AM   #232
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I am not dodging anything. Mochizuki Kancho said consistent hard mindful training develops awareness. He also said awareness is the key to the superior techniques of O'Sensei. I am trying to share the insight of a great budo master.

The japanese think so. I recently posted the story of the Tea Master

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...402#post188402

you can read that.

Regards,
Cool, the next time a white belt asks me how to pass the guard. Rather then explain some drills that will help develop this skill. I will tell him to just practice hard with awareness or some other meta-physical mumbo jumbo. He will figure it out eventually.

However, I'll bite in your vagueness. What are you doing in your training while you are consistent and mindful? Personally, I like to paint myself blue with a magic marker, do keg stands, and do jumping jacks. While I do this I contemplate extending ki and being the center of the universe. I plan to enter the UFC this summer with this training method. I mean, I'm being mindful, that's good enough right?

Furthermore, being mindful and aware is not some deep insight. It's obvious advice. My father taught it to me at a young age. He would say to me after doing something stupid "Hey, that was stupid hu? Pay more attention next time and that won't happen."

I don't need training methods to make me more aware. What I need training methods for is to develop proper technique and muscle memory while fostering fitness and developing strategy. The being mindful comes from just paying attention, and the awareness is a by product. The big advantage is I learn to punch, clinch, takedown, choke a person trying their best to do it back to me. If I just played chess, I would learn none of that.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 09:02 AM   #233
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Cool, the next time a white belt asks me how to pass the guard. Rather then explain some drills that will help develop this skill. I will tell him to just practice hard with awareness or some other meta-physical mumbo jumbo. He will figure it out eventually.

However, I'll bite in your vagueness. What are you doing in your training while you are consistent and mindful? Personally, I like to paint myself blue with a magic marker, do keg stands, and do jumping jacks. While I do this I contemplate extending ki and being the center of the universe. I plan to enter the UFC this summer with this training method. I mean, I'm being mindful, that's good enough right?
The true goal of awareness is to get to the point where we never have to pass the guard. If you weren't so narrow minded you may understand this. The higher goal of Aikido is that we hopefully become aware of why we would be attacked in the first place. For example, why would someone mug us? With the answer to this question then we can become aware of how to fix the problem.

After we have developed an awareness of simple problems, then we move on to the bigger problems. Why would someone blow themselves up to kill people, or even fly a plane into a building!

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Furthermore, being mindful and aware is not some deep insight. It's obvious advice. My father taught it to me at a young age. He would say to me after doing something stupid "Hey, that was stupid hu? Pay more attention next time and that won't happen."
This does not make it any less important when your father first told you, did you stop doing stupid mindless things? Probably not!

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I don't need training methods to make me more aware. What I need training methods for is to develop proper technique and muscle memory while fostering fitness and developing strategy. The being mindful comes from just paying attention, and the awareness is a by product. The big advantage is I learn to punch, clinch, takedown, choke a person trying their best to do it back to me. If I just played chess, I would learn none of that.
I will see if I can find some statistics to see if being an expert chess player makes it less likely you get assaulted or mugged. I suspect that I won't find any, but I think the common sense and strategy they learn (plus the beating they get in school) would be enough to teach them, don't walk dangerous streets at night, lock your doors and windows at night, and be cautious on public transport. They may also understand that a sure fire way to deal with a mugger is capsicum spray, and if they are in the US, then a gun can be great for home invasions.

Like I said, it is a Japanese idea, not mine. I train in the same way as you for the same reason. But I like to try and implement the important principles left behind by great teachers like Mochizuki (and Kano) "mutual welfare and prosperity," and from O'Sensei, "true victory is self victory."

Good luck with the smurf UFC, I look forward to watching it.

Regards,

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 09:55 AM   #234
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Pointing to legends of someone long dead for evidence that it is what we should be doing is unacceptable.
Hear, hear.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 10:57 AM   #235
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
The true goal of awareness is to get to the point where we never have to pass the guard. If you weren't so narrow minded you may understand this. The higher goal of Aikido is that we hopefully become aware of why we would be attacked in the first place. For example, why would someone mug us? With the answer to this question then we can become aware of how to fix the problem.

After we have developed an awareness of simple problems, then we move on to the bigger problems. Why would someone blow themselves up to kill people, or even fly a plane into a building!

This does not make it any less important when your father first told you, did you stop doing stupid mindless things? Probably not!

I will see if I can find some statistics to see if being an expert chess player makes it less likely you get assaulted or mugged. I suspect that I won't find any, but I think the common sense and strategy they learn (plus the beating they get in school) would be enough to teach them, don't walk dangerous streets at night, lock your doors and windows at night, and be cautious on public transport. They may also understand that a sure fire way to deal with a mugger is capsicum spray, and if they are in the US, then a gun can be great for home invasions.

Like I said, it is a Japanese idea, not mine. I train in the same way as you for the same reason. But I like to try and implement the important principles left behind by great teachers like Mochizuki (and Kano) "mutual welfare and prosperity," and from O'Sensei, "true victory is self victory."

Good luck with the smurf UFC, I look forward to watching it.

Regards,
which still dodges the question. Very political of you. Just tell me you don't want to answer it instead of dancing around it and trying to sound all philosophical.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 11:04 AM   #236
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I think you are mis-interpreting the posts Don...be that as it may, I suspect you and Graham have more in common in your training methods than you think...

Best,
Ron (butting out now...)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 11:29 AM   #237
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I think you are mis-interpreting the posts Don...be that as it may, I suspect you and Graham have more in common in your training methods than you think...

Best,
Ron (butting out now...)
I am glad someone can see it!

But I will add that we obviously have different philosophies.

Last edited by wildaikido : 09-04-2007 at 11:33 AM.

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 11:43 AM   #238
philippe willaume
 
philippe willaume's Avatar
Location: windsor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 317
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I think you are mis-interpreting the posts Don...be that as it may, I suspect you and Graham have more in common in your training methods than you think...

Best,
Ron (butting out now...)
Hello
yes I believe that also, don you are focusing on the technical level and graham is talking at a more conceptual level.

Whether your aim is to defend against guard by fighting it whilst in it or fighting your opponent so it does not happen, you both need to train against someone taking guard to make it efficient.
Awareness passes by recognising and differentiating circumstance end the environment
For example, if you practice a weapon you awareness will extend to the threat range of that weapon.
That will just tell you that someone has entered your safe space making it unsafe. That does not mean that you will recognise that he is going to try to the guard on you or is going to shoot you. I think that is what don is saying.

However the more you train the more generic solution you find. So the more that generic awareness can be turned into something useful.

If you want a written example of that take medieval German fencing you have only 5 strike that you use in defence and in offence, it takes cares of all the attacks possible from you opponent.
Ultimately all attacks with a long sword will have 5 possible trajectories and 5 possible great finishing or starting position.
When someone comes at you with a new guard that you have never seen, you can deal wit it as if it is one on of the four positions.
I have spared with people doing Olympic fencing, kendo arni/kali ghatka, xy z school of kenjutsu.
The medieval German simple rules never let me down and not following it got me spanked. I did not need to know exactly what guard they were using or the intricacies of each of their attack.

I think that is graham is referring to.

Last edited by philippe willaume : 09-04-2007 at 11:47 AM.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 11:57 AM   #239
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello
yes I believe that also, don you are focusing on the technical level and graham is talking to at the tactical/strategically level.
No I am still saying that your train however you want, I train from escaping the guard, passing the guard, what ever is required in that ground situation.

I am being literal and philosophical. Mochizuki Kancho taught us through the teachings of Kano and O'Sensei that developing the inner self is as important, if not more so, then developing the physical self. We don't do this siting around mediating or dancing in Aikido, we do consistent hard mindful training that is physical. People can use what ever techniques they want. Ron is correct that technically Don and I may do similar training.

But you are correct,

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
However the more you train the more generic solution you find. So the more that generic awareness can be turned into something useful.

I think that is graham is referring to.
I am referring to the fact that if you develop a greater awareness then the person you need to defend yourself against you will have no problem applying what you have to the situation. Even if that means you leave before things go wrong, or run when they do

Regards,

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 12:51 PM   #240
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Ok, I'm talking about developing the ability to punch someone in the face when they are trying to hurt you. You can be aware of the fist all you want, but without the proper techniques to defend the against it and hit back with your own, you are going to make grave mistakes.

So you were talking about punching a attacker to take them out. I was asking what training methods explicitly do you employ to develop this skill.

This adds to the discussion, talking about being aware the person is going to hit you is obvious. But it doesn't solve the problem at hand. This is why it is evasive. I'm not doubting your training, I'm trying to understand what you do and how it applies to your position.

If someone asked me to explain how I drill to pass the guard, which would be a better answer to help them understand what I do.

"I examine the world around me, breathing in the universe I move with mindfulness, carefully aware of my surroundings causing a purposeful guard pass and brining unity to the world."

or

"First, I secure a strong base and posture. I do this by looking upwards, lowering my hips and widening my base by increasing the distance between my knees. Next I use my arms to control his hips by grasping his pants near the hips and keeping my elbows tight to the insides of his legs. Now I am careful to examine his position and posture waiting for a motion that will allow the pass. At some point he will grab a hand and I will have anticipated this and I will trap this hand. Now I will stand on that side and leaning my weight over his trapped side stand with the other leg. I will be carefully aware of his hips and pull on his arm and use my knees to trap his hips from dropping. Now I will take my free arm and press firmly on his leg to open the guard, I will follow down and drive my leg over his now open leg carefully keeping it pinned between my knee and foot. I will also keep my other foot firmly on the ground with the knee pointed up to control his other side. Now I will wait and anticipate the escape. At this point I will use a whole body movement to throw my leg around while keeping his leg pinned with my other leg. Finally after securing side control I will remove the pinned leg. You can practice this with a few static reps, followed by increasing resistance, followed by sparing sessions where passing the guard is your only goal, your opponent wants to sweep or submit you. During the static rep portion, it is important to break each moment down into its core parts, then increase fluidity as resistance increases. Sparing should be done in 1 minute intervals with switching between rounds. 1 round on top, one round on bottom, one round out to rest."

I know which one tells me more about how the person trains, and which is vague.

Last edited by DonMagee : 09-04-2007 at 12:54 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 01:30 PM   #241
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
As for techniques, according to the source (O'Sensei), "In combat Aikido is 90% atemi." So at the moment of contact a properly placed atemi should be sufficient. This may sound naive, but I am not talking about just trying to hit the person, remember I said you must have mindful consistent hard training to develop awareness. With superior awareness, you can defeat any opponent. A solid strike to the side of the chin is the proven way to knock someone out with atemi.
I think what you are asking is stated in this, you train atemi, you use atemi. What is difficult to understand about that?

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Alternatively you could do what we do in Yoseikan, and train in grappling. Personal, I like the fact that O'Sensei didn't have to do this, so this is what I want to achieve.
Like I said, I will go to the ground with the grappler, because I can hit him, but my awareness is not good enough to make sure I hit the "button" first time every time. I do believe that with consistent hard mindful training that you can develop the awareness required to do this.

Regards,

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 01:38 PM   #242
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I think what you are asking is stated in this, you train atemi, you use atemi. What is difficult to understand about that?

,
Nothing - I understand it perfectly. By which I mean it is clear to me, and I expect to Don, from the continuing vagueness of your answer that you don't train strikes in any kind of functional way. I may be wrong but that is the only conclusion I can draw from your comments so far.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 02:04 PM   #243
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I think what you are asking is stated in this, you train atemi, you use atemi. What is difficult to understand about that?
Nothing at all, but my questions is so simple a child can answer it. What are you doing to train atemi?

Lets try this out.

I'm a white belt, I ask you what I should do to practice my atemi. Are you going to tell me to practice awareness? What are you going to tell me?

If you tell me practice my awareness, I am going to then ask, what can I do to practice my awareness to improve my atemi?

Then you are sticking with the "it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you are mindful." I then submit that you are wasting your time training aikido. You already know you just need to be mindful, so why not use your time somewhere better spent? You are not learning anything that can't be learned working a spare job for cash, helping be a big brother or sister for kids in trouble communities, etc. You can do all that mindfully and be just as competent in self defense.

At this point you have basically told the white belt no useful information, he is not going to get better, be discouraged and quit. In the context of this conversation, you are not adding anything and are in no way allowing anyone to learn from or analyze your methods and comment.

The core question is, what methods and drills are you doing while you are mindful which improves your direct ability to punch a person in the face when he is trying to hurt you? Without an answer, I can only assume nothing. Which leads me to assume you are making an uniformed statement based on the stories of a long dead man.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Like I said, I will go to the ground with the grappler, because I can hit him, but my awareness is not good enough to make sure I hit the "button" first time every time. I do believe that with consistent hard mindful training that you can develop the awareness required to do this.

Regards,
Again, what kind of consistent mindful training? Are you really saying playing chess, painting, walking the dog, jumping jacks, will improve your chances at hitting the button?

However, you have posed a new question with this. How long do you expect it to take to reach this level? Is this time well spent if your goal is being able to defend against a grappler? Are more direct methods of defense against a grappler (such as bjj, judo, etc) not going to foster the same awareness? If the answer is no, then what do you think is missing from their training? What would you add to improve their training, or is it hopeless and can only be done in an aikido practice? Which leads back to the first question, what are you doing when you train?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 01:44 AM   #244
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Nothing at all, but my questions is so simple a child can answer it. What are you doing to train atemi?

Lets try this out.

I'm a white belt, I ask you what I should do to practice my atemi. Are you going to tell me to practice awareness? What are you going to tell me?
If you are a white belt training in Yoseikan, the first technique you are going to learn is escaping from a gyaku hanmi katate dori, or jun katate dori as we call it in Yoseikan. From here, we escape and strike. We have a small number of kata to practice striking, we have kihon to practice striking, lots of different exercises that at lower level that develop precision. At high grades we grab bags and pads then we start striking targets with power and speed. But my point is this is nothing new, most people train in strikes this way.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
If you tell me practice my awareness, I am going to then ask, what can I do to practice my awareness to improve my atemi?
I am always going to say be aware, when someone gets injured, I am going to tell the defender that he needs to be more aware when training. When two uke fall into each other, I am going to say be more aware. Awareness, in my opinion, and in Mochizuki Kancho's, is the key to budo.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Then you are sticking with the "it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you are mindful." I then submit that you are wasting your time training aikido. You already know you just need to be mindful, so why not use your time somewhere better spent? You are not learning anything that can't be learned working a spare job for cash, helping be a big brother or sister for kids in trouble communities, etc. You can do all that mindfully and be just as competent in self defense.
The awareness you develop on a crowded mat is one of the most useful things you can apply to real life. Look at driving your car and sitting in traffic, some people (including me) get annoyed by selfish drivers who only care about themselves, and them get were they need to go, even at the expense of others. No one trains like this on the mats in Aikido, you may have to be patient and wait your turn, and be courteous to the others on the mat. Imagine if everyone did Aikido and learnt these values and then applied them to something like driving, how wonderful the world would be! Aikido is not just about self defence! Open your mind!

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
At this point you have basically told the white belt no useful information, he is not going to get better, be discouraged and quit. In the context of this conversation, you are not adding anything and are in no way allowing anyone to learn from or analyze your methods and comment.

The core question is, what methods and drills are you doing while you are mindful which improves your direct ability to punch a person in the face when he is trying to hurt you? Without an answer, I can only assume nothing. Which leads me to assume you are making an uniformed statement based on the stories of a long dead man.
Your disrespect of men like Mochizuki and Ueshiba leads me to ask, why are you studying Aikido, and if you aren't, why are you on an Aikido board?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Again, what kind of consistent mindful training? Are you really saying playing chess, painting, walking the dog, jumping jacks, will improve your chances at hitting the button?
No, but all of these things will help you avoid the situation in the first place. Then why does a dog walker or chess player need to know how to knock someone out, if they no not to get caught in unfavourable situations, or what streets not to walk?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
However, you have posed a new question with this. How long do you expect it to take to reach this level?
All I can say for sure is that after 9 years, I could lay out an 8 year old, or a granny, or the punk who was high on drugs that I defended myself against, with a punch to the chin. In all of these situations I would not need to do this, in the last one I didn't!

To do the same to a MMA who competes, I have no idea how much training I will need! I suspect more than him. But right now, I will go to the ground with him. But still probably lose, I am not deluded. I would like to never have to fight on the ground, and maybe one day I will be able to do the fabled techniques. But most importantly I never plan to be in a situation were I need to defend my self against a MMA, eg the octagon!

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Is this time well spent if your goal is being able to defend against a grappler?
My goal is self defence against the most likely attacker, I don't think someone sniffing drugs is going to be training in BJJ. So, YES. He may pull me down to the ground and try stuff because watching the UFC he has got the bright idea that "ground fighting is the best."

[quote=Don Magee;188653]Are more direct methods of defense against a grappler (such as bjj, judo, etc) not going to foster the same awareness?

How many times do I need to tell you I train to fight on the ground! Yoseikan Aikido includes the ground fighting from judo. My personal experience of cleaning up a black belt in judo here I Australia, every time on the floor, and then having my arse handed to me by a purple belt Yoseikan Aikidoka in the US, tells me that the ground fighting we do is good.

I think the point here is that you can be that good, to achieve it takes your life time, then you probably won't ever need or want to use it.

Regards,

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 01:45 AM   #245
Erik Calderon
 
Erik Calderon's Avatar
Dojo: Erik Calderon's Martial Arts Program
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 64
United_States
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Ushiro Ukemi.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 02:25 AM   #246
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Just out of curiosity does the Jan de Jong/Hans de jong aikido schools give out certificates in "Yoseikan Aikido"? I am pretty sure the only Yoseikan school recognized by the Mochizuki family in Perth is Roy Hebdens Yoseikan Budo Dojo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 02:55 AM   #247
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Just out of curiosity does the Jan de Jong/Hans de jong aikido schools give out certificates in "Yoseikan Aikido"? I am pretty sure the only Yoseikan school recognized by the Mochizuki family in Perth is Roy Hebdens Yoseikan Budo Dojo.
I can not comment on the activities of "Jan de Jong Martial Arts Fitness" and I think it best that I don't. I will say my 6th, 5th, and 4th kyu grades and certificates were signed by Jan.

As for me, under Sensei Hans, he got his shodan from Yoshi, and he got his 6th dan from Mochizuki Kancho. My 3rd and 2nd kyu certificates are from Hans. I will never get a shodan from Hans, I don't think he would ever offer one, and I would never ask for one.

The term Yoseikan does not only belong to the current Mochizuki family. Also, this fact does not stop our Aikido being Yoseikan Aikido. Lets just say I am not going to be doing a Gary Bennett and appointing myself a 10th dan, EVER!

Regards,

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 05:55 AM   #248
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
If you are a white belt training in Yoseikan, the first technique you are going to learn is escaping from a gyaku hanmi katate dori, or jun katate dori as we call it in Yoseikan. From here, we escape and strike. We have a small number of kata to practice striking, we have kihon to practice striking, lots of different exercises that at lower level that develop precision. At high grades we grab bags and pads then we start striking targets with power and speed. But my point is this is nothing new, most people train in strikes this way.
Thank you for answering my question. Do you also spar with strikes?

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I am always going to say be aware, when someone gets injured, I am going to tell the defender that he needs to be more aware when training. When two uke fall into each other, I am going to say be more aware. Awareness, in my opinion, and in Mochizuki Kancho's, is the key to budo.

The awareness you develop on a crowded mat is one of the most useful things you can apply to real life. Look at driving your car and sitting in traffic, some people (including me) get annoyed by selfish drivers who only care about themselves, and them get were they need to go, even at the expense of others. No one trains like this on the mats in Aikido, you may have to be patient and wait your turn, and be courteous to the others on the mat. Imagine if everyone did Aikido and learnt these values and then applied them to something like driving, how wonderful the world would be! Aikido is not just about self defence! Open your mind!

Your disrespect of men like Mochizuki and Ueshiba leads me to ask, why are you studying Aikido, and if you aren't, why are you on an Aikido board?
Questioning is not disrespectful. Maybe it is to Japanese, but luckily, I'm not Japanese. I will never stop challenging things I do not understand. It is the best method of learning I have found. It is the scientific method. I train in aikido as a hobby. I find it fun and interesting. It is not a serious pursuit of mine. Grappling and ring fighting are serious pursuits of mine. I post here because I find the conversation interesting. Except for when people get sticks up their butts and start saying that questioning someones ideas, especially someone no longer alive, is disrespectful. In fact, that, I feel is disrespectful to me. I have only posed questions on the usefulness of the material you presented to my questions. I have not said Ueshiba was wrong. In fact I have always stuck to the core that I don't care what spiritual stuff you study, it is the method of practice (what you are doing with your body) that builds martial technique.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
No, but all of these things will help you avoid the situation in the first place. Then why does a dog walker or chess player need to know how to knock someone out, if they no not to get caught in unfavourable situations, or what streets not to walk?
But this has nothing to do with neutralizing a bjj attacker. This is obvious self defense stuff. I don't need self defense. Why? Because I don't have out in bad areas. My parents taught me this. I didn't need martial arts to teach me morals, ideals, or awareness.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
All I can say for sure is that after 9 years, I could lay out an 8 year old, or a granny, or the punk who was high on drugs that I defended myself against, with a punch to the chin. In all of these situations I would not need to do this, in the last one I didn't!

To do the same to a MMA who competes, I have no idea how much training I will need! I suspect more than him. But right now, I will go to the ground with him. But still probably lose, I am not deluded. I would like to never have to fight on the ground, and maybe one day I will be able to do the fabled techniques. But most importantly I never plan to be in a situation were I need to defend my self against a MMA, eg the octagon!
So the method of practice is inefficient? It is good that you are honest. There is nothing wrong with inefficient training providing you know it is such. Have you taken the time to examine what makes the training inefficient? Is it a lack of training time? Poor training methods? Lack of sparing? A lack of fitness? Perhaps it is simply not designed to build martial skill.

My point with this is that a bjj guy's training is very efficient for what he is trying to do. In very short periods of time, they become extremely competent on the ground. This is a testament of their method of training, and why strategy that deal with them typically need to be based around something other then allowing them to clinch. Judo, boxing, MT, some forms of karate, wrestling, and MMA also have similar methods of training with similar results.

After 9 years of any one of those arts you would be a very dangerous person to deal with. In fact I would not have a likely have a chance. Yet you are telling me that against a trained fighter, you have no idea your level of skill, what you can do, or if you are even ready to try to deal with them. I see this as a flaw in awareness, you obviously are not aware of your own physical abilities. You said you would likely need more training then them. At 9 years you have more training then any blue belt or purple belt in bjj, almost double in fact. At 9 years a Mauy Thai striker would probably kill a blue belt before he could close the distance, a judo guy would toss him around like a rag doll in the clinch, an MMA fighter would normally be way better in all ranges then that bjj blue belt.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
My goal is self defence against the most likely attacker, I don't think someone sniffing drugs is going to be training in BJJ. So, YES. He may pull me down to the ground and try stuff because watching the UFC he has got the bright idea that "ground fighting is the best."
That is great that you know what you are training for. I personally don't agree with the lowest common denominator training. I find the attitude flawed. Training for the most skilled of fighters covers unskilled fighters, but the inverse is not true. I have no reason to continue bjj if I was following your training method. At blue belt, I have not found an untrained person who has come into the gym that I can not control and submit without effort. Even when they are twice my size. But I still keep training. Because I've seen the difference when that big guy comes in with a few years of high school wrestling, and his size, positional awareness and mild skill, and strength are enough to make me useless. And as I keep training to deal with more skilled opponents in any area, the unskilled ones become even easier.

Plus this thread is about neutralizing a bjj attacker. Basically you are saying you are not training to have the skills to do so. This makes the point mute.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
How many times do I need to tell you I train to fight on the ground! Yoseikan Aikido includes the ground fighting from judo. My personal experience of cleaning up a black belt in judo here I Australia, every time on the floor, and then having my arse handed to me by a purple belt Yoseikan Aikidoka in the US, tells me that the ground fighting we do is good.

I think the point here is that you can be that good, to achieve it takes your life time, then you probably won't ever need or want to use it.

Regards,
I did not say you did not know how to fight on the ground. That is also not what I asked. What I asked was, "Are more direct methods of defense against a grappler (such as bjj, judo, etc) not going to foster the same awareness?"

I'll refine this a little to make my question clearer.

As I have stated, based only on the descriptions and self admissions you have made on your training, that it is inefficient and building martial skill. So my question is:

Do you feel that sport based training such as boxing, Mauy Thai, bjj, judo, etc not going to build awareness? This seems to be the key component in your self defense strategy. I would think that bjj, boxing, etc would all build situational awareness that would give the exact same benefits. If you do not feel this is true, I would like to know what you are doing in your training that builds awareness faster or better then sport based martial arts. Further more, what are they not doing that leads to this lack of awareness?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 07:01 AM   #249
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Okay, my lack of wanting to say I can handle a trained BJJ is only from a lack of ego. I did say I easily handled a black belt in judo, and I will add that I also handled the brown belt that was in the same class, who was training for the sole purpose of competing. My ne waza randori against him resulted in me doing things that were not allowed in judo (to his feet and hands) hence we had to break and start again.

My awareness of BJJ techniques and training does enable me to gage my ability against them. If I say, "I don't know," someone like you says "you don't know about your training and awareness, hence you training is useless". If I say, "yes," someone, maybe you, will say, "you are delusional and your Aikido would neve work against someone who does BJJ." Hence the reason I gave you a situation where it would definitely work (8 year old, old person, druggy), and one were I know it won't at my level (a trained octagon fighter). What's in the middle is for me to worry about, and if and when it happens, I will let you know how I go.

I have learnt that questioning things that great people tell you is important. But ultimately if they are indeed great, they are probably right. I mean how many time do parents tell their kids "drugs are bad." Then the kids go do drugs and have fun, then later they think, "those days I was doing drugs really didn't help me, I guess drugs are bad." However, blindly following fools is much worse then questioning great people.

With the BJJ thing I said if you want to beat a BJJer, train to knock him out fast. Then I said I train to fight him on the floor. But this does not make completely avoiding the attack any less important.

I expect to use my art against the lowest common denominator, as that is what I should expect. But the fact is I train with people at my level who completely resist, so I am practicing to do Aikido to them! Through Yoseikan they are trained in karate judo and aikido. They are not the lowest common denominator.

I never admitted that my training was in effective, you have interpreted my comments to suit yourself. I know what I can do, and most importantly I know I don't what to have to use it. Because I pity the fool who ties to hurt my family, because then I will know what I can really do. "In Aikido we learn to kill, but chose not to," Chiba Shihan (or was it Abbe?)

The mentality developed in pure sports training has the potential to easily become mindless. Hence awareness will not be developed. Instead, mindless reactions will be developed. This is why some people fall for the feints of a smart fighter. This is what I have observed in my sword sparring, which is full contact with padded shinai.

BTW, challenging the findings of those who came before us is not the scientific method.

Regards,

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 07:39 AM   #250
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

First the scientific method.

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypotheses
7. Publish results

Finally, each element of a scientific method is subject to peer review for possible mistakes.

This is exactly what I am doing. Only in the case of martial arts, we have theoretically starting in the peer review stage. In order to have meaningful conversation we need honesty, and we need to understand the view points, reasoning, ideals, and backgrounds of the people we are talking too. From that I can define a question, and gather information and resources, and form a hypothesis.

I then go spar, and use other training methods to gather data. I analyze that data, and repeat the steps as needed. Finally I do not publish results, but I do share what I have learned to others in conversation.

This is exactly what I am attempting to do here, and is indeed the scientific method.

I have attempted to make no assumptions without first asking for data and clarification. When such data was not supplied, I make logical assumptions.

For example, you claim I would tell you that you can't not handle a bjj attacker. This is not true. In fact I would ask the exact same questions I have asked. What strategies do you think are reasonable and effective to deal with a bjj attacker? What training methods do you employ to develop the skills you require to effectively implement this strategy.

So far, with my search in your style, it sounds like you spar and train in an alive manner. In which case I have no evidence in which to doubt the ability to gain skill and defeat a bjj attacker. Obviously the level of bjj comes into question. But assuming that most bjj practitioners are between white and purple belt with the majority at blue belt, that means a bjj practitioner with 1-3 years training. It would be a logical assumption that anyone training in an alive manner for 9 years in a grappling art should be able to defeat this kind of attacker.

Personally I am not a fan of humility. It adds nothing to the conversation. This is not to say arrogance is useful, it is not. But honest discussion of skill is very useful for having a conversation where neither of us can work with the other to learn our skill levels. Also, the taping a judo black belt thing did not convey a level of skill. Because at least here, a judo black belt is not all that great on the ground. They seem to range between high white belt and high blue belt in bjj. I am a blue belt in bjj and a brown belt in judo and I have rarely met a judo black belt who is more skilled then I on the ground. And in my bjj club I'm not even close to the best blue belt in the club.

I agree sport mentality can be mindless, but it seems that anyone successful at combat sports is anything but mindless. The washouts who stay low level are the ones who become reactionary and mindless. Yet I still see people have more success in sport based martial arts, then in non-sport based arts. I've seen very few people train for a year in bjj and not get any quantifiable skill. They either wash out because they are not mindful and attentive, or they grow spiritually and physically. However, I have a friend who did some japaneese kata based jujitsu for a year. When we spared he was clumsy and basically could not do any of the techniques he had shared and demonstrated to me. The majority of which were basic judo. I think he would of been much better served by a year of judo.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kotegaishi weakness? orenb Techniques 60 10-11-2008 02:53 PM
Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian) aries admin General 89 09-30-2007 04:58 PM
uncooperative, overbearing.... thomson Training 49 05-17-2004 07:34 PM
Randori DavidM Techniques 6 07-08-2002 07:56 AM
What are you working on? akiy Training 15 06-29-2000 10:52 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:34 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate