Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-04-2007, 02:21 PM   #1
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Salim,

I assume your definition of pacifism is "the refusal to engage in martial activity because of one's principles or beliefs." If it is "the principle or policy that all differences among nations should be adjusted without recourse to war" then I would say IMHO, that we as Aikidoka should all be pacifists. But as Mochizuki Kancho taught us, specifically in his lecture at the Second Aikido Friendship Demonstration, that to survive we must be strong.

As I said before, it was not O'Sensei's religious beliefs that changed him after the war, it was the war itself! O'Sensei used to teach military academies and was friends with admirals and generals. Men like this then declared decided that Japan should enter the war. As a result the country he was born and raised in was bombed and burnt beyond belief. I think this would change anyone who had a martial way of life, and they would think about what the purpose of that martial way was.

Regards,

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 06:45 PM   #2
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
As I said before, it was not O'Sensei's religious beliefs that changed him after the war, it was the war itself! ....As a result the country he was born and raised in was bombed and burnt beyond belief. I think this would change anyone who had a martial way of life, and they would think about what the purpose of that martial way was.
Personally I have doubts about this canonical view of the founder. Dower (Embracing Defeat) writes compellingly of many flip-flops of convenience where militaristic fascists became democracy loving America cheer-leaders overnight. Given Ueshiba's known terror of capture and incarceration (his own cousing revilied him for abandoning Deguchi during the second suppression), it's not hard to imagine a position of convenience.

As you mentioned, spirituality was no brake on war-mongering. Deguchi and Ueshiba were ardent supporters of the most vile of terrorists and assassins. See Amdur's Dueling with Osensei ("Head in the Clouds, Feet in the Muck") as well as Thomas Peter Nadolski, "The Socio-Political Background of the 1921 and 1935 Omoto Suppressions in Japan" (a dissertation) where he notes that Deguchi offered a Colonel Hashimoto (IIRC) the services of one Ueshiba Kenshi as personal bodyguard. This colonel would be executed by GHQ for Class A war crimes.

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 07:53 PM   #3
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
Personally I have doubts about this canonical view of the founder. Dower (Embracing Defeat) writes compellingly of many flip-flops of convenience where militaristic fascists became democracy loving America cheer-leaders overnight. Given Ueshiba's known terror of capture and incarceration (his own cousing revilied him for abandoning Deguchi during the second suppression), it's not hard to imagine a position of convenience.

As you mentioned, spirituality was no brake on war-mongering. Deguchi and Ueshiba were ardent supporters of the most vile of terrorists and assassins. See Amdur's Dueling with Osensei ("Head in the Clouds, Feet in the Muck") as well as Thomas Peter Nadolski, "The Socio-Political Background of the 1921 and 1935 Omoto Suppressions in Japan" (a dissertation) where he notes that Deguchi offered a Colonel Hashimoto (IIRC) the services of one Ueshiba Kenshi as personal bodyguard. This colonel would be executed by GHQ for Class A war crimes.

CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Can it be ascertain that at some point, indeed the militaristic, combative nature of Aikido was greatly impacted after WWII? Several references from some of Ueshiba's first generation of students, indicate a sort of philosophical metamorphosis of Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 12:14 AM   #4
wildaikido
Dojo: Hans de Jong Self Defence School
Location: Perth
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 239
Australia
Offline
Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
Personally I have doubts about this canonical view of the founder. Dower (Embracing Defeat) writes compellingly of many flip-flops of convenience where militaristic fascists became democracy loving America cheer-leaders overnight. Given Ueshiba's known terror of capture and incarceration (his own cousing revilied him for abandoning Deguchi during the second suppression), it's not hard to imagine a position of convenience.

As you mentioned, spirituality was no brake on war-mongering. Deguchi and Ueshiba were ardent supporters of the most vile of terrorists and assassins. See Amdur's Dueling with Osensei ("Head in the Clouds, Feet in the Muck") as well as Thomas Peter Nadolski, "The Socio-Political Background of the 1921 and 1935 Omoto Suppressions in Japan" (a dissertation) where he notes that Deguchi offered a Colonel Hashimoto (IIRC) the services of one Ueshiba Kenshi as personal bodyguard. This colonel would be executed by GHQ for Class A war crimes.
All I have as evidence is the change in language and teachings from before and after the war. O'Sensei's text from before the war, Budo and Budo Rneshu, talk about the spirit of Japan, making a better country, and excluding gaijin. Then after the war O'Sensei talk about spreading Aikido to the world and building a golden bridge to unite all man kind. The thing in between was the war, ergo, the war is the result of the change.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
CAVEAT EMPTOR.
I don't buy that

Graham Wild
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 01:29 PM   #5
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
All I have as evidence is the change in language and teachings from before and after the war. O'Sensei's text from before the war, Budo and Budo Rneshu, talk about the spirit of Japan, making a better country, and excluding gaijin. Then after the war O'Sensei talk about spreading Aikido to the world and building a golden bridge to unite all man kind. The thing in between was the war, ergo, the war is the result of the change.
Not impossible, but I'm reserving judgement, myself. Not to be cynical, but I think an angry occupying army executing comrades would be a swell motivation to professions of love and peace.

Quote:
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Sorry, my Latin's not up to snuff. Is this a fancy way of saying "Post hoc ergo propter hoc"?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 01:51 PM   #6
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 613
United_States
Offline
Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
See .... Thomas Peter Nadolski, "The Socio-Political Background of the 1921 and 1935 Omoto Suppressions in Japan" (a dissertation)
Interlibrary loan is your friend.....except when it provides you with things other than the books and articles you are supposed to be reading.

So let me just bless you and curse you in the same breath, Don

Best,

FL
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 02:53 PM   #7
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Interlibrary loan is your friend.....except when it provides you with things other than the books and articles you are supposed to be reading.
Oh, man. Is it contagious? I'm SO sorry, Fred.

Get well soon.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 08:47 PM   #8
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
Not to be cynical, but I think an angry occupying army executing comrades would be a swell motivation to professions of love and peace.
In one of his books, Terry Dobson mentions a student of O'Sensei's that was "a hundred times closer to (O'Sensei) than me" that believed exactly what Don has written here.

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2007, 11:03 PM   #9
tedehara
 
tedehara's Avatar
Dojo: Evanston Ki-Aikido
Location: Evanston IL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 826
Offline
O-Sensei's Religious Beliefs and World War II

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
Not impossible, but I'm reserving judgement, myself. Not to be cynical, but I think an angry occupying army executing comrades would be a swell motivation to professions of love and peace.

Sorry, my Latin's not up to snuff. Is this a fancy way of saying "Post hoc ergo propter hoc"?
Just as Graham Wild's QED hasn't been demonstrated clearly, I don't see your Post Hoc argument of logical fallacy.

Why would Morihei Ueshiba be fearful of "an angry occupying army executing comrades"? These people were executed because they were Japanese military leaders, not because of their relationship to the founder. Because of his Omoto beliefs, the founder had more reason to fear the Japanese wartime leadership, than the US occupation force.

It seems to me that the founder was already upon a peaceful spiritual path. His withdrawal from the martial arts to Iwama is a strong indicator that he was going his own way. How far along this path would he have gone if not for WWII, it's hard to say. O Sensei was a person of his times. We all are.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2007, 11:07 AM   #10
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
All I have as evidence is the change in language and teachings from before and after the war. O'Sensei's text from before the war, Budo and Budo Rneshu, talk about the spirit of Japan, making a better country, and excluding gaijin. Then after the war O'Sensei talk about spreading Aikido to the world and building a golden bridge to unite all man kind. The thing in between was the war, ergo, the war is the result of the change.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

I don't buy that
Graham,
I'm so pleased to read this summation as well the one you posited in a post before on this thread.
I have held this view and have tried to express it through an empathetic approach to what O'Sensei may have experienced both from my education and intuition of his internal experiences; like the 'golden vapor' episode where his understanding of the martial way and natures path became one, and his external experiences or circumstances surrounding WWII and the catastrophic bombing of Japan. I say empathetic because in retroespect I experienced something very similar as the world went to apersistent confrontational model/ War in the last few years during which time I experienced a profound shift in my perspectives, intuition and insight.
Hopelessness arises when mans machines exceed mans capacity to control them and to live well. In the face of such unleashed human power it occurs to me as instinctual and even normal to respond with a drastic change in perception and philosophy. So often this element of change in him has been overlooked or triangulated toward 'this student trained with him before the war' or 'after' so it becomes a purely technical distinction and not a distinction of realization or learning.
O'Sensei may have held himself as a model of behavior on a private level ( I don't know that , but I hear others talking about it. ) but his public transmissions beg his students to follow him following nature's model. That, in my observation, has been the defining feature of the power and strength that exists in aikido (the power of nature trancending the power of man).
So perhaps at this point I turn this post away from the intent of Graham's post and say that it is natures power that became apparent to O'Sensei. I would also say that it eclipsed his previous emphasis on human power. I believe the war cemented this perspective.

Onegaishimasu.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2007, 12:36 PM   #11
Dewey
Location: St. Louis, MO
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: O-Sensei's Religious Beliefs and World War II

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote: View Post
It seems to me that the founder was already upon a peaceful spiritual path. His withdrawal from the martial arts to Iwama is a strong indicator that he was going his own way. How far along this path would he have gone if not for WWII, it's hard to say.
Perhaps we can back it up to Ueshiba's parting of ways with Takeda, which (to my knowledge), has never been "officially" commented on by either side...even by their descendents. However, it is debatable if their parting was more to do with Ueshiba wanting to avoid paying Takeda his "royalties" for teaching Daito Ryu or if it was because of Ueshiba's new religion.

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote: View Post
O Sensei was a person of his times. We all are.
I think that pretty much sums it up: Ueshiba was a man of his times and merely a man. The attempt by some to canonize him, methinks, has to do more with making the Founder of the martial art more congruent with the New Age spirituality that it's modern practice has spawned. I certainly believe Aikido has a spiritual component, but I do not believe Aikido is a spirituality in and of itself. Rather, the martial art Usheiba taught was heavily influenced by his spirituality and could even be rightly regarded as his spirituality, and thus understanding the man and his spirituality greatly helps in understanding Aikido. However, it's not necessary to practice Omoto-kyo in order to be an Aikidoka.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2007, 05:24 PM   #12
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Can it be ascertain that at some point, indeed the militaristic, combative nature of Aikido was greatly impacted after WWII? Several references from some of Ueshiba's first generation of students, indicate a sort of philosophical metamorphosis of Aikido.
I think the big changes were not Ueshiba before or after WWII but Ueshiba Morihei or Kisshomaru.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2007, 05:30 PM   #13
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: O-Sensei's Religious Beliefs and World War II

Hi, Ted,

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote: View Post
I don't see your Post Hoc argument of logical fallacy.

Why would Morihei Ueshiba be fearful of "an angry occupying army executing comrades"? These people were executed because they were Japanese military leaders, not because of their relationship to the founder.
Yes. The issue wasn't that they were thick with him, but that he was thick with them.

Quote:
Because of his Omoto beliefs, the founder had more reason to fear the Japanese wartime leadership, than the US occupation force.
Yes and no. After the second suppression, Deguchi flip-flopped into a real minion of the false emperor (i.e., Hirohito, whom Deguchi had writted and asked to abdicate in favor of himself, the obvious real emperor.)

Quote:
It seems to me that the founder was already upon a peaceful spiritual path. His withdrawal from the martial arts to Iwama is a strong indicator that he was going his own way.
My suggestion is that his retreat might have been based less on principles of morality than on principles of self-preservation, i.e., getting away from GHQ.

Quote:
O Sensei was a person of his times. We all are.
Yes...I rather fancy myself speaking to this.

Thanks for the attention.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:28 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate