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Old 09-04-2007, 08:46 AM   #101
Don_Modesto
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Morihei's deep involvement in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded.
Have you ever read an account of Jpn shamanism (and Deguchi fits into Eliade's definition of shamanism)?

It's not for the faint of heart. It's not loopy new-age puff for the glazed of eyes and the fixed of smiles. Those folks faced death when they went on their mountain retreats. Ascetic is different from esthetic. They climbed tough peaks for hours. They sat fetal for hours despite the pain in their knees and backs. They sat like that in tiny rooms with hot peppers burning in the center of the room burning their nasal passages and throats. They hung each other over huge precipices. I think Helen Hardacre has an account somewhere if you want to chase it down.

If anything, Ueshiba's infusion of spirituality probably made aikido--or aikibujutsu or whatever we're calling it today--tougher, not easier.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:59 AM   #102
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Hmmm - I never heard of Degushi (the man with the poofy hair) as being particularily hard.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-04-2007, 11:41 AM   #103
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

But it is interesting. Some links to first person accounts would be helpful.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:03 PM   #104
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Hmmm - I never heard of Degushi (the man with the poofy hair) as being particularily hard.
No. I'm responding to the supposition that spirituality is inherently fey. Don't think so myself.

I don't know that Deguchi practiced asceticism, but he was both an interepreter of Nao's messages from the other side and a traveler there himself.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:47 PM   #105
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

And Ueshiba certainly practiced portions of "asceticism" in the form of shugo himself...

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-04-2007, 01:05 PM   #106
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
Have you ever read an account of Jpn shamanism (and Deguchi fits into Eliade's definition of shamanism)?

It's not for the faint of heart. It's not loopy new-age puff for the glazed of eyes and the fixed of smiles. Those folks faced death when they went on their mountain retreats. Ascetic is different from esthetic. They climbed tough peaks for hours. They sat fetal for hours despite the pain in their knees and backs. They sat like that in tiny rooms with hot peppers burning in the center of the room burning their nasal passages and throats. They hung each other over huge precipices. I think Helen Hardacre has an account somewhere if you want to chase it down.

If anything, Ueshiba's infusion of spirituality probably made aikido--or aikibujutsu or whatever we're calling it today--tougher, not easier.
I have never read the accounts of Jpn shamanism. I will research and try to find some information. Really the issues between the PRE WWII Aikido and the Aikido now is the PACIFISM doctrines from the teachings of Oomto.

Aikibudo, Aikijujutsu was originally designed for war, not for spiritual cultivation. Really it's the religious doctrines and it's methodology that some people don't care for.
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Old 09-04-2007, 02:14 PM   #107
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
Salim,

I assume your definition of pacifism is "the refusal to engage in martial activity because of one's principles or beliefs." If it is "the principle or policy that all differences among nations should be adjusted without recourse to war" then I would say IMHO, that we as Aikidoka should all be pacifists. But as Mochizuki Kancho taught us, specifically in his lecture at the Second Aikido Friendship Demonstration, that to survive we must be strong.

As I said before, it was not O'Sensei's religious beliefs that changed him after the war, it was the war itself! O'Sensei used to teach military academies and was friends with admirals and generals. Men like this then declared decided that Japan should enter the war. As a result the country he was born and raised in was bombed and burnt beyond belief. I think this would change anyone who had a martial way of life, and they would think about what the purpose of that martial way was.

Regards,
I respect what you are saying. Peace is always the better choice. I love Pre WWII Aikido, what else can I say!
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Old 09-04-2007, 02:23 PM   #108
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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I love Pre WWII Aikido, what else can I say!
Promise that your love will not encourage hyperbole, fanatacism, fundamentalism or any other such isms...now and forever ever more...amen.


Best,
Ron

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Old 09-04-2007, 02:33 PM   #109
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Promise that your love will not encourage hyperbole, fanatacism, fundamentalism or any other such isms...now and forever ever more...amen.


Best,
Ron
Scary!

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Old 09-04-2007, 07:11 PM   #110
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Salim
I think you are very right in that pre war Aikido is the budo Aikido and the post war aikido was influenced by the spiritual changes that occured to O'Sensei's life but apart from Yoshinkan what other styles preserved aikibudo? I think it is the only style out there that represents pre war aikido

my regards
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:09 PM   #111
raul rodrigo
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
Salim
I think you are very right in that pre war Aikido is the budo Aikido and the post war aikido was influenced by the spiritual changes that occured to O'Sensei's life but apart from Yoshinkan what other styles preserved aikibudo? I think it is the only style out there that represents pre war aikido

my regards
Even within the Aikikai there were teachers that continued with the "prewar" flavor you speak of: Rinjiro Shirata, Bansen Tanaka, Morihiro Saito, Sadateru Arikawa etc. Even if Arikawa and Saito began training in aikido after the war, they had a harder, more combative style that you would never mistake for Kisshomaru's kind of aikido. And if you've ever seen a demo by Hiroshi Isoyama, then you'd know that there is nothing "pacifist" about it.

As Stan Pranin points out, Saito liked to point out the similarity between his waza and the waza of Osensei in the 1938 manual Budo as proof that he faithfully preserved the teachings of the founder. So the prewar/postwar dichotomy is too simplistic.


R

Last edited by raul rodrigo : 09-04-2007 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:41 PM   #112
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

For those who don't think Judo techniques don't exist in Aikido think again. Watch Hiroshi Isoyama use a couple of classical Judo throws. Aikido from it's pre WWII roots.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:00 PM   #113
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Even within the Aikikai there were teachers that continued with the "prewar" flavor you speak of: Rinjiro Shirata, Bansen Tanaka, Morihiro Saito, Sadateru Arikawa etc. Even if Arikawa and Saito began training in aikido after the war, they had a harder, more combative style that you would never mistake for Kisshomaru's kind of aikido. And if you've ever seen a demo by Hiroshi Isoyama, then you'd know that there is nothing "pacifist" about it.

As Stan Pranin points out, Saito liked to point out the similarity between his waza and the waza of Osensei in the 1938 manual Budo as proof that he faithfully preserved the teachings of the founder. So the prewar/postwar dichotomy is too simplistic.

R
Thank you for pointing out Hiroshi Isoyama. Really dynamic, an inspiration to continue the methodology of Aikido as BUDO.

I found this very interesting article on Aikidojournal about Hiroshi Isoyama. This is a direct quote from the article, an interview.

"Some people were in contact with O-Sensei when he was spreading aikido purely as a budo; others only began learning from him once his thinking had evolved to emphasize aikido as "a way of harmony"; still others learned from him at various periods later in his life. All of these will have different viewpoints and interpretations, and I don't think it's possible to say that any of these is better than the others."
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=102

It's nice to know that one of the first generation students, persevered the the combative nature of Aikido.
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:29 PM   #114
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
For those who don't think Judo techniques don't exist in Aikido think again. Watch Hiroshi Isoyama use a couple of classical Judo throws. Aikido from it's pre WWII roots.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4
I felt sorry for that uke specialy at the last throw

great video

by the way what about Chiba sensei? dose his Aikido have a prewar flavor in it?

Last edited by Tijani1150 : 09-04-2007 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 09-05-2007, 11:42 AM   #115
Ron Tisdale
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

All of these will have different viewpoints and interpretations, and I don't think it's possible to say that any of these is better than the others.

If we are going to highlight what the man says, we should perhaps ensure we take note of ALL that he said...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-05-2007, 05:45 PM   #116
raul rodrigo
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

What makes Isoyama a "first generation" student? He was born in 1937, a time when men like Tomiki, Shirata, Shioda, and Mochizuki had already spent several years studying with Morihei at the Kobukan. Isoyama achieved dan rank in the mid 1950s. He is junior to many men who are clearly second generation students, like Saito, Yamaguchi, Tada and Arikawa. Some of Isoyama's seniors were "soft," like K. Ozawa; some of his juniors were quite "hard," like Chiba. So its difficult to make sweeping generalizations about how, allegedly, aikido became namby-pamby right after the war and its budo flavor was lost.

Last edited by raul rodrigo : 09-05-2007 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 09-05-2007, 08:19 PM   #117
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
What makes Isoyama a "first generation" student? He was born in 1937, a time when men like Tomiki, Shirata, Shioda, and Mochizuki had already spent several years studying with Morihei at the Kobukan. Isoyama achieved dan rank in the mid 1950s. He is junior to many men who are clearly second generation students, like Saito, Yamaguchi, Tada and Arikawa. Some of Isoyama's seniors were "soft," like K. Ozawa; some of his juniors were quite "hard," like Chiba. So its difficult to make sweeping generalizations about how, allegedly, aikido became namby-pamby right after the war and its budo flavor was lost.
Punchy.

Succinct.

Nice post.

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Old 09-05-2007, 09:58 PM   #118
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Really it's the religious doctrines and it's methodology that some people don't care for.
And it's exactly those doctrines that some people DO care for.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I love Pre WWII Aikido, what else can I say!
And I love post-WWII aikido, as do many others. Luckily there were many people who took many different things from O Sensei so we can all have a practice that suits us.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
All of these will have different viewpoints and interpretations, and I don't think it's possible to say that any of these is better than the others.

If we are going to highlight what the man says, we should perhaps ensure we take note of ALL that he said...
Amen to that Ron,

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 09-05-2007, 10:14 PM   #119
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Really it's the religious doctrines and it's methodology that some people don't care for.
Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote: View Post
And it's exactly those doctrines that some people DO care for.
Again I find it interesting that the Aikikai Honbu removed many of the religious trappings after the war from the dojo (anyone remember exactly when that was done).

The kamiza of Tomiki's Dojo is still from Omoto-kyo.

Pre/Post war - all sorts of assumptions and generalizations that just don't fit.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:02 AM   #120
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
What makes Isoyama a "first generation" student? He was born in 1937, a time when men like Tomiki, Shirata, Shioda, and Mochizuki had already spent several years studying with Morihei at the Kobukan. Isoyama achieved dan rank in the mid 1950s. He is junior to many men who are clearly second generation students, like Saito, Yamaguchi, Tada and Arikawa. Some of Isoyama's seniors were "soft," like K. Ozawa; some of his juniors were quite "hard," like Chiba. So its difficult to make sweeping generalizations about how, allegedly, aikido became namby-pamby right after the war and its budo flavor was lost.
Oops, I fat fingered and typed incorrectly. It's wasn't my intention to make a generalization. Rather it's more important to bring about the forgotten COMBAT nature of Aikido that Shioda, Mochizuki and
Isoyama preserved. Clearly Aikido is budo to some and not to others. We can respect and accept what ever path a person takes with there Aikido.
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:12 AM   #121
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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And it's exactly those doctrines that some people DO care for.

And I love post-WWII aikido, as do many others. Luckily there were many people who took many different things from O Sensei so we can all have a practice that suits us.

Amen to that Ron,

Bronson
Really, it seems that if one approaches there Aikido for combat or self defense, they are some how doing something foreign or more likely to be criticized. Perhaps it's more of a mentality issue overall?

I accept the fact that Aikido is peace and harmony to others or maybe even religion. Some it maybe no more than a combat art. Perhaps it's more of a mentality issue?
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:23 AM   #122
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Perhaps Salim, but even I (as a member of the Yoshinkan) find your diatribes somewhat distressing.

Perhaps it's because you remind me of me, a few years ago.

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-06-2007, 09:37 PM   #123
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ghlight=tomiki

Stanley Pranin interview

"I mean the training before the war I don't think was that much more intense than it is perhaps perceived. It was just the society they were living in, with the military government and the whole society being geared up towards conscription and war. In that sense there was tension in the environment. In terms of dojo training, it might have been a little rougher but the people who we think of as being top people figures before the war such as; Tomiki, Shioda and Tohei and people like that, I don't think their training was in anyway particularly more intense, I mean they had direct contact with O'sensei in that time that's for sure.

The difference is that the post war society we live in is not tied with so much tension and also the number of activity's competing for our time and interests are so much more, with; T.V, dvd's, video games, computers and hundreds of different sports and hundreds of different martial arts. There is also the way martial arts is portrayed in the media with its' unrealistic qualities and impossible feats, one guy beating up forty guys all these impossible scenarios, and young people who tend to go to the martial arts are heavily influenced by images like that. It's the time we live in."

David
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:01 PM   #124
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Really, it seems that if one approaches there Aikido for combat or self defense, they are some how doing something foreign or more likely to be criticized. Perhaps it's more of a mentality issue overall?

I accept the fact that Aikido is peace and harmony to others or maybe even religion. Some it maybe no more than a combat art. Perhaps it's more of a mentality issue?
The issue isn't that you say aikido is budo. Because I for one agree that it is. The issue is that you have been dismissing other kinds of aikido (different from what you know) as weak and lacking value; plus you've been making basic mistakes in historical fact, and once wrote that the others on this forum who pointed out some mistakes that they were "dead wrong." If you're going to be that aggressive in this forum, then it would be wise to know the history much better. It's not our mentality that is the issue.
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:17 PM   #125
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
The issue isn't that you say aikido is budo. Because I for one agree that it is. The issue is that you have been dismissing other kinds of aikido (different from what you know) as weak and lacking value; plus you've been making basic mistakes in historical fact, and once wrote that the others on this forum who pointed out some mistakes that they were "dead wrong." If you're going to be that aggressive in this forum, then it would be wise to know the history much better. It's not our mentality that is the issue.
I never dismissed other kinds of Aikido. I'm not sure where you are reading or if you are creating your own interpretations. Mistakes, yes everyone makes mistakes, including yourself. The mentality is proven from your own.
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