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Old 08-29-2007, 11:06 AM   #76
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
A minor nuance but each of these men did systemize aikido - in a different way to be sure - but it was still aikido.
True. My point is I see more similarities between the techniques of these men then I do to Kisshomaru's of Tohei's. Hence less changes were made by them. Just my opinion.

Regards,

Last edited by wildaikido : 08-29-2007 at 11:15 AM.

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:35 AM   #77
ChrisMoses
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I just re read my initial post on the topic, it is not specific, but it never has to be for an interpretation. I meant to include the fact that since he started training in the 40's (?) so Saito Sensei never saw these photos or the book, hence the fact that his Aikido looks like them means Aikido really did not change from the 30's through to the 60's when O'Sensei passed. This is supported by his reference to the book in seminars.

I believe most of the changes were made formally after '72 when Aikido was systemised. Not by Saito, or Shioda, or Tomiki, or Mochizuki Kancho, but by those in charge of the Aikikai.

Regards,
Agreed, thanks for the clarifications.

Chris Moses
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:41 AM   #78
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Agreed, thanks for the clarifications.
YES! I finaly said something someone agrees with

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:08 PM   #79
salim
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Quote: Regular "kata" based aikido? Really, I donīt se anything special in this clip except the sutemi.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

---------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see anything different in this either (other than maybe the sutemi, although come to think of it I've been taught that a few times, just rarely)?? What are we supposed to be looking at? -- it doesn't look any different than the AIkido I'm used to.
Not only does the video show the sutemi waza, but it also shows the atemi waza. Notice the atemi waza after the person is on the ground. They apply a strike. The aggressiveness is much greater, there is even one instance of a choking kind of grab. The PACIFISM does not exist. Aikikai would never advocate using a striking move when the opponent is on the ground, there are a lot of differences.
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:46 PM   #80
grondahl
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

So "combat driven" and "warrior spirit" actually means striking a compliant uke at the end of waza

Using a strike of some kind as a formal end of a waza ex in shihonage is not even uncommon in the Aikikai. I think you need to get out more.

(And search for Ellis Amdurs article about K. Ueshibas answer to the question about M.Ueshibas pacifism.)
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Old 08-29-2007, 05:31 PM   #81
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
YES! I finaly said something someone agrees with

Regards,
No. I completely disagree
LOL, good humor couldn't resist. back to original programming.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-29-2007 at 05:34 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:21 AM   #82
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
No. I completely disagree
LOL, good humor couldn't resist. back to original programming.

Graham Wild
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Old 09-01-2007, 05:19 AM   #83
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

David,

It was raining heavily that night so only two or three instructors turned up. Lots of kids though and quite a few foreign students. I only remember talking to Washizu sensei. About a year ago we had a brown belt student from the hombu come to Perth. He trained at our dojo and we took him out for beers. Maybe I will get to meet him again one day...

I wonder if Unno Sensei also got menkyo. Last I remember his highest grades were 6th dan in aikido, karate and jujitsu which he said were signed (stamped) by the emperor. He would always talk highly of Murai-Sensei, Sano-Sensei and of course Kancho.

I heard about the YWF and Seifukai split. Some of the instructors from the Seifukai recently visited Perth through Ross Taylor's group who I think is the official representative/technical director for the Seifukai in Australia.

I think Scott would be close to 30 now. He's a father.

Don't think Yosh remembered much around the time of his death but I am sure he valued the time he spent with you.

Darin
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Old 09-01-2007, 06:27 AM   #84
darin
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Graham,

I have seen Jan de Jong only once or twice in the old Hay Street shop more than 12 years ago. I did get to meet and train with Hans through a guy called Dean who used to train with me. Yosh and Jan de Jong had history between them but he always respected him for being a great teacher and an excellent martial artist. He seemed to be good friends with Hans though. Yoshi's top aikido student David King 4th dan was also a student of Jan de Jong. He had great sutemi. Nice teacher too.

I haven't spoken to Roy for over a year. I think the YWF are pretty strict on uploading Yoseikan content and the use of the Mochizuki name. As far as I know, they don't recognize the term Yoseikan aikido anymore. But if you want to go that direction for any Yoseikan content its probably best to talk to Phil Farmer. He often contributes on this site.

How long ago were you with Ross? He left Yoshi's dojo in the early to mid 90s after getting his 2nd dan, went to Japan and became affiliated with the Seifukai. I know for a time he was learning from Brett and Steve Nener, John Langley and Katie Noad so that could explain his interest in aikikai aikido.

Ross was my first instructor and he taught and did hard aikido back then. He may have toned it down as his school grew so as to make training safer and to meet the technical requirements for the Seifukai. I haven't trained with him for a long time so I don't know what he is doing now. I spoke to him at Yoshi's funeral last year and he said he has a new dojo and recently had senior instructors from the Seifukai come to Perth.

Darin
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Old 09-01-2007, 09:43 AM   #85
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I have seen Jan de Jong only once or twice in the old Hay Street shop more than 12 years ago. I did get to meet and train with Hans through a guy called Dean who used to train with me. Yosh and Jan de Jong had history between them but he always respected him for being a great teacher and an excellent martial artist. He seemed to be good friends with Hans though. Yoshi's top aikido student David King 4th dan was also a student of Jan de Jong. He had great sutemi. Nice teacher too.
This information was readily passed around the Perth dojo. Since Jan was "on par" with Yoshi, he had a different sort of relationship. But since Yoshi was Sensei Hans Aikido, Karate and Kobudo teacher, he had a more respectful relationship with him. I remember when I told Sensei that Yoshi was ill at training, that night he drove to Yoshi's house to see him.

Dean is still with Hans, he got his shodan last year (I think), after about 19 years or so of training. I have never heard of David King, I thought you had been graded to the highest level under Yoshi.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I haven't spoken to Roy for over a year. I think the YWF are pretty strict on uploading Yoseikan content and the use of the Mochizuki name. As far as I know, they don't recognize the term Yoseikan aikido anymore. But if you want to go that direction for any Yoseikan content its probably best to talk to Phil Farmer. He often contributes on this site.
I though you were affiliated with Roy, and trained with him? Yeah I know the people in YWF would not be very helpful with getting an image of the old Hombu, since there direction had completely changed. I initially got in touch with Phil so I could arrange to go to the US and train with the USYBF. But unfortunately information that was supposed to come never got set, so I approached others.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
How long ago were you with Ross? He left Yoshi's dojo in the early to mid 90s after getting his 2nd dan, went to Japan and became affiliated with the Seifukai. I know for a time he was learning from Brett and Steve Nener, John Langley and Katie Noad so that could explain his interest in aikikai aikido.

Ross was my first instructor and he taught and did hard aikido back then. He may have toned it down as his school grew so as to make training safer and to meet the technical requirements for the Seifukai. I haven't trained with him for a long time so I don't know what he is doing now. I spoke to him at Yoshi's funeral last year and he said he has a new dojo and recently had senior instructors from the Seifukai come to Perth.
I was with Ross for 5 months in the beginning of 2003. I don't mean to be negative, but basically he wanted us to over commit our attacks so the techniques would flow better. I did not agree with this. If it had been hard, I would have loved it. I was wondering if things had changed with his repeated visits to the Seifukai. I just haven't gotten around to going and checking out his new dojo.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-01-2007, 11:51 AM   #86
darin
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Yosh did tell me his side of the story. I think it was over money but I can't remember the details.

David King got his 4th dan about 25 years before I did so I consider him my senior even though we are the same grade. He is now a karate instructor in Branko's organization.

I trained with Roy for a month or so. His dojo is just too far away to go train for an hour. Good instructor though but he's not a fan of aikido. That didn't really bother me as I got to work on karate/kick boxing. Too bad you didn't get a chance to train in Texas.

Yoseikan/Seifukai aikido is pretty soft compared to what Yosh taught. Its just not flowing like in aikikai. Yoshi changed the techniques by replacing or modifying them with jujitsu, karate, Yoshinkan and Tomiki versons.

I am not surprised at what you experienced in Ross's dojo. When I trained in the hombu it was pretty soft too. Actually I have seen of Patrick Auge's dojo also show soft aikido. I think these schools have lots of kids and old people so they train more gentle. There is also the legal factor too.
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Old 09-01-2007, 01:26 PM   #87
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Yosh did tell me his side of the story. I think it was over money but I can't remember the details.
I never bothered with it, because when you hear a story you are only hearing one side. But Sensei Hans respected him, so I can do nothing but respect him. Although some of the others in Perth had other thoughts. I would have liked to have trained with Yoshi more, but back them (2000) I was just after Aikido training, and Yoshi said that it wasn't Aikido it was Budo, which I notice when training. Now I train like that so it is a shame.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
David King got his 4th dan about 25 years before I did so I consider him my senior even though we are the same grade. He is now a karate instructor in Branko's organization.
Interesting, that means he must have gotten to forth dan in less then 10 years. He must have been dam good!

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I trained with Roy for a month or so. His dojo is just too far away to go train for an hour. Good instructor though but he's not a fan of aikido. That didn't really bother me as I got to work on karate/kick boxing. Too bad you didn't get a chance to train in Texas.
When I can, I now go and train in LA, at least once a year. I make sure I arrange to go to conferences in the US so I can stop by.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Yoseikan/Seifukai aikido is pretty soft compared to what Yosh taught. Its just not flowing like in aikikai. Yoshi changed the techniques by replacing or modifying them with jujitsu, karate, Yoshinkan and Tomiki versons.
This is what I though when I went to see him. In hind sight, I wish I had trained with him for a few years.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I am not surprised at what you experienced in Ross's dojo. When I trained in the hombu it was pretty soft too. Actually I have seen of Patrick Auge's dojo also show soft aikido. I think these schools have lots of kids and old people so they train more gentle. There is also the legal factor too.
Training in LA is anything but soft. The advance classes are unlike anything I have seen anywhere. But the thing that got me was how good the Aikido was, but how the Judo and Karate was weaved through it seamlessly. It was perfect Aikido. I was blown away. I have basically trained at every Aikido club in Perth (except the Kokikai and the one in Rolystone) and no one has ever taught me as much about Aikido as I have learnt training in LA.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-01-2007, 08:35 PM   #88
darin
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

I think whatever happened between them is water under the bridge. It was good that they continued to be professional about sharing students. Yosh was rather controversial. He had history with a lot of people here...

I heard David King was already an instructor for Jan de Jong so his prior experience was taken into consideration. He was pretty good but probably training several times a week back then. Now I'd be lucky to find someone who can train once a week consistently.

Although we did do some karate and judo techniques Yosh concentrated mostly on aikido. At shodan and above you do more sutemi and weapon defense. The training itself wasn't that hard (ie. taxing, extreme cardio workkout etc) just the techniques very brutal and we often trained on very thin old mats or no mats at all. He did know his aikido though better than anyone else in Perth at that time.

I have only heard good things about Auge's aikido. The video I saw was of kata type training taken in gradings.
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Old 09-02-2007, 12:11 AM   #89
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I heard David King was already an instructor for Jan de Jong so his prior experience was taken into consideration. He was pretty good but probably training several times a week back then. Now I'd be lucky to find someone who can train once a week consistently.
That would explain it. Do you know what happened to Phillipe Boiron, the first Yoseikan Instructor at Jan de Jong's?

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I have only heard good things about Auge's aikido. The video I saw was of kata type training taken in gradings.
What I experienced with Auge Sensei was nothing like what Ross was doing, so I can only assume he teach a little differently to the Seifukai. Next time I am in Japan, I am planing to stop by.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-02-2007, 05:38 AM   #90
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Back to sutemi waza: Saito Sensei sometimes showed sutemi waza when we were doing kaeshi waza. They were clearly a part of the legacy. Kaeshi waza were supposed to be taught to instructors only so these techniques were probably not shown that often.

In Aiki,

Ethan
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Old 09-02-2007, 07:15 AM   #91
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Ethan Weisgard wrote: View Post
Back to sutemi waza: Saito Sensei sometimes showed sutemi waza when we were doing kaeshi waza. They were clearly a part of the legacy. Kaeshi waza were supposed to be taught to instructors only so these techniques were probably not shown that often.

In Aiki,

Ethan
Interesting! Can anyone discuss this further, maybe with an example.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-02-2007, 10:22 AM   #92
darin
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
That would explain it. Do you know what happened to Phillipe Boiron, the first Yoseikan Instructor at Jan de Jong's?

What I experienced with Auge Sensei was nothing like what Ross was doing, so I can only assume he teach a little differently to the Seifukai. Next time I am in Japan, I am planing to stop by.

Regards,
Sorry, don't know what happened to Phillipe Boiron. I never met him or heard anyone talk about him before.

I haven't trained with Ross for a few years so I don't know what kind of aikido he is doing now. I wish him the best with his new dojo.

Here is some video of IYBF aikido I found on the web:

http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/aikido/
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Old 09-02-2007, 11:46 AM   #93
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Sorry, don't know what happened to Phillipe Boiron. I never met him or heard anyone talk about him before.
I will ask Sensei Hans when he returns. Telling me about David just made me think about other previous instructors, and I know Phillipe was the first. There is a picture of him in Jan's book, but that's all I know.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I haven't trained with Ross for a few years so I don't know what kind of aikido he is doing now. I wish him the best with his new dojo.

Here is some video of IYBF aikido I found on the web:

http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/aikido/
I think I meet Daniel when I was at a clinic in Montreal. There were lots of people there, I have never trained with that many people on the mat. Easily 100 people on the mats.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-02-2007, 06:45 PM   #94
salim
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Ethan Weisgard wrote: View Post
Back to sutemi waza: Saito Sensei sometimes showed sutemi waza when we were doing kaeshi waza. They were clearly a part of the legacy. Kaeshi waza were supposed to be taught to instructors only so these techniques were probably not shown that often.

In Aiki,

Ethan
I would suspect that the early students of Ueshiba, all had some level of proficiency with Judo (sutemi waza). The fact that Ueshiba study Judo would suggest that there is a legacy of sutemi waza. This is more profound with the methods of Mochizuki Minoru and his legacy of Aikido.
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Old 09-02-2007, 08:42 PM   #95
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Hans and Dean should remember David King. I wonder if Dean still keeps in contact with our old iaido teacher Luis Garcia.
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Old 09-03-2007, 01:54 AM   #96
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Hans and Dean should remember David King. I wonder if Dean still keeps in contact with our old iaido teacher Luis Garcia.
He has been trying to get him to come down an teach iai, so yes. I will asked Dean about David on Saturday.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 09-03-2007, 04:36 PM   #97
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Not true. The original Aikido (Aikibudo) was for combat and self defense. Aikido changed after the religious conversion of Ueshiba. The early students have preserved the original combat Aikido.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo
Salim who are these students OR what styles represent the preserved original combat aikido today?
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:00 PM   #98
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Ahmed Altalib wrote: View Post
Salim who are these students OR what styles represent the preserved original combat aikido today?
All early students of Ueshiba, such as, Shioda Gozo Kancho, and Mochizuki Minoru were taught more Aikibujutsu principles, Pre WWII Aikido before the heavy religious influence from Oomoto.

Morihei's deep involvement in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded.

I would say styles such as Yoshinkan, Aikibudo and some aspects of Yoseikan, although heavily modernized contains the original combat Aikido.
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:07 PM   #99
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
All early students of Ueshiba, such as, Shioda Gozo Kancho, and Mochizuki Minoru were taught more Aikibujutsu principles, Pre WWII Aikido before the heavy religious influence from Oomoto.

Morihei's deep involvement in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded.

I would say styles such as Yoshinkan, Aikibudo and some aspects of Yoseikan, although heavily modernized contains the original combat Aikido.
More pre-WWII Aikibudoist, Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Gozo Shioda, Rinjiro Shirata, Takako Kunigoshi, and Kiyoshi Nakakura.
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:01 PM   #100
darin
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Kenji Tomiki?
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