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Old 08-30-2007, 09:41 PM   #26
Eric Webber
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Matthew Feldmeyer wrote: View Post
Does anyone utilize kiai or breath training in their aikido practice, and if so has it helped you bring your training to a higher level?
Yes on both counts. Have worked on kiai in a few seminars here and there, have incorporated into practice, typically weapons, but also empty hand. Find kiai very beneficial in weapons practice. Recommend reading William Gleason's "Spiritual Foundations of Aikido" for an interesting perspective on sounds and martial technique. Also see "Bruce Tegner's Complete Book of Karate" (1966, pp.34-36) for specific ideas on kiai practice.
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Old 08-31-2007, 01:02 AM   #27
nekobaka
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Mike said:
Quote:
Good post and pretty close, although it's not exactly the stomach muscles tensing. Please let me know when Nomura Shihan's tape is available; I'd like to see it.
The air comes in through your mouth and then forced out again with the kiai, tensing the stomach muscles. the process of coming in and then out is kind of similar to way kokyu ho moves. hard to explain in words though, isn't it.

That's how it feels to me(stomach muscles tensing), how do you think it works?

I'm not sure how much PR I can do here without getting in trouble, but..
he went to spain recently (germany and france as well), and budo international did an article and video, which another guy and I worked very hard to translate and edit, so I hope that a lot of people can see it. It should come out in the october edition of the magazine.

You can pm me if you want more information about it.

Last edited by nekobaka : 08-31-2007 at 01:03 AM. Reason: pm me...
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Old 08-31-2007, 01:09 AM   #28
Upyu
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Ani Forbes wrote: View Post
Mike said:

The air comes in through your mouth and then forced out again with the kiai, tensing the stomach muscles. the process of coming in and then out is kind of similar to way kokyu ho moves. hard to explain in words though, isn't it.

That's how it feels to me(stomach muscles tensing), how do you think it works?

I'm not sure how much PR I can do here without getting in trouble, but..
he went to spain recently (germany and france as well), and budo international did an article and video, which another guy and I worked very hard to translate and edit, so I hope that a lot of people can see it. It should come out in the october edition of the magazine.

You can pm me if you want more information about it.
It's definitely not tensing the stomach muscles.
Maybe "pressurizing" but never tensing.
If it were just "tensing" it, would it be a "secret"?
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:47 AM   #29
nekobaka
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
It's definitely not tensing the stomach muscles.
Maybe "pressurizing" but never tensing.
If it were just "tensing" it, would it be a "secret"?
Sure, pressurizing sounds good. I've never been good at putting words to aikido, especially when it's always explained in japanese. you can also say ki is concentrated in the tanden, but that can be a little esoteric.
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:52 AM   #30
DH
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Kiai ..is..in the tanden. If breath was only breathing with the lungs-there would be no cause for the Japanese term "breath power" to be used in Budo. And -it- has meaning.
Breath power
The living center
Explanations can be meaningless if the building blocks aren't in place. So "how" we pressurize is as important as "what" is being pressed. Or at other times- what is being "pulled" and stretched to press against what. Training is progressive. Does this teacher say just what is doing what? There is more than one way to produce a Kiai. Were you in active, rapid, change-ups in grappling I might say rotating something will produce kiai... as well as toss them on their backsides.

Many men train with Kiai. Many men train in budo. And many men .....golf. Some are expert by consensus, others...by skill. With teachers it can be tough to figure out which is which. It's why we don't look to authority for truth-we look to truth for authority.

Last edited by DH : 08-31-2007 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:27 AM   #31
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Great, but that's not what I said. I said I don't know him. Personally, I don't. I'd like to personally see what he does. As far as "who" he is, I'm aware of that. Shoots your whole "self-professed knowledge" dig in the foot, doesn't it?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Not especially, no It is what you said. You didn't qualify it and that's how I interpreted it. In any case I can't be bothered getting into it. Better things to do...

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:29 AM   #32
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Kiai is not a sound, especially not a yell or grunt. It is a state, and as a philosphical concept, is more akin to "aiki" than "shout".

Kiai doesn't even have to be accompanied by sound at all, if done correctly, but if kiai is accomplished, quite often there IS sound.

The specific sounds used in classical budo, and referenced in some of Ueshiba's writings, such as Ei! or To! or Ho! are sort of mnemonics. They help the practitioner by providing an audible placeholder where the kiai ought to exist whilst performing a kata or technique.

And as someone above said, if you do it right, it oughtn't strain the larynx at all.

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Old 08-31-2007, 08:35 AM   #33
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
It's definitely not tensing the stomach muscles.
Maybe "pressurizing" but never tensing.
If it were just "tensing" it, would it be a "secret"?
Koichi Tohei recounts in various interviews that the Tempukai taught him to tense the lower abdomen, he found that this didn't work and adjusted what he did and taught accordingly (though apparently tensing the abdomen is still taught in the Tempukai). So, as far as ki breathing goes, no it's nothing to do with tensing the abdomen. So I agree.

As I said before IMO if you want to make a breathing exercise (such as the ones used in the ki society and its offshoots) noisy/shouty then you're doing a kiai. But you can't do a real kiai without correct breathing IMHO.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:38 AM   #34
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

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Chuck Gordon wrote: View Post
And as someone above said, if you do it right, it oughtn't strain the larynx at all.
Yup and Yup. But try doing nothing but kiai for 4 or 5 hours and you'll probably find you have a bit of a sore throat IME. Not so much from the shouting but from the dryness associated with constantly expelling air I think. It's also worth noting that that sort of practice leaves your abdomen aching more than your throat. Well it's meant to and that's certainly been my experience anyway.

Mike

PS - Hope your hip is ok

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:41 AM   #35
Mike Sigman
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Not especially, no It is what you said. You didn't qualify it and that's how I interpreted it. In any case I can't be bothered getting into it. Better things to do...
Very simple. Look at your post where you say I indicated I did not know WHO Will Reed is. That is clearly not what I said. No qualification needed; you made an error. And now you're being typically gracious when you make an error and trying to blame someone else. If you have "better things to do", next time don't take the extra time to try and make a gratuitous swipe.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:49 AM   #36
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
PS - Hope your hip is ok
Hip's doing great. I'm 99/9% pain-free (only get a twinge when I do something stupid and the occasional muscle ache after exercise or a tough PT session), stronger and more mobile every day.

Actually taught class Wednesday, rather than just observing. Still hobbling around on one crutch, so I emphasized single-hand techniques.

Hip adventures are blogged here:
http://www.arxhereticus.blogspot.com/
(Go into the archive to about July 14 to start)

cg

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Old 08-31-2007, 09:03 AM   #37
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Very simple. Look at your post where you say I indicated I did not know WHO Will Reed is. That is clearly not what I said. No qualification needed; you made an error. And now you're being typically gracious when you make an error and trying to blame someone else. If you have "better things to do", next time don't take the extra time to try and make a gratuitous swipe.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Whatever. I'd suggest you go and be self-important somewhere else but I know you won't. Perhaps you should grow a sense of humour and learn to laugh at yourself and the persona you portray on the internet from time to time. Helps me to do that, anyway.

I can hear Jun coming with the keys to the troll-pit so I'd best give it up.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-31-2007, 09:07 AM   #38
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote: View Post
Actually taught class Wednesday, rather than just observing. Still hobbling around on one crutch, so I emphasized single-hand techniques.
Frankly I'm disappointed. Would've thought you'd have been teaching painful crutch disarms and attacks

Best

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-31-2007, 10:53 AM   #39
cguzik
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Random thoughts on kiai... learned from various well respected teachers and continuing to find deeper ways in which these things are relavent:

Chuck Gordon is correct that kiai do not have to be audible.

Kiai and aiki are complementary. They go together to such an extent that they are inseparable.

Certain ways of manifesting kiai have different (a) physiological and (b) psychological effects on both (i) uke and (ii) tori. When these become audible, the ways the sounds are manifested also relates to these effects.

There is a correlation between body movement, technique, and appropriate kiai, and the foundation of that correlation is the breath.

Regarding the stomach muscles thing - I don't know anyone who breathes with their stomach. But, your diaphragm is down there near your stomach... and the way the diaphragm, abdominal muscles, pelvic floor, and intercostal muscles are all interconnected and related to breathing is very important.

Last edited by cguzik : 08-31-2007 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:54 PM   #40
crbateman
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
We still do them.
Okay, mostly I just make "old man" sounds.


I call them "my father's noises"... I have an entire arsenal of them...
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Old 08-31-2007, 01:08 PM   #41
Mike Sigman
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post


I call them "my father's noises"... I have an entire arsenal of them...
Luckily I've tended to grunt and groan and uff and hah since I was young, so "old" has nothing to do with it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Mike
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:20 PM   #42
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
But you can't do a real kiai without correct breathing IMHO.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "real" kiai (as opposed to a pretend one?) and what is "correct" breathing? "Correct" in what way? How?

Ignatius
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:01 PM   #43
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "real" kiai (as opposed to a pretend one?) and what is "correct" breathing? "Correct" in what way? How?
A pretend kiai is a loud shout. A real kiai is so strong that it shocks. Also you can hear the silence after it is done.

There are many different breathing exercises. This is one. Most breathing exercises promote abdominal breathing, which means the stomach moves at each breath. This uses a higher percentage of the lungs than breathing by just expanding the chest.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:31 PM   #44
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Most of my kiai these days take the form of nearly inaudible grunts and other expulsions of air. Unless you're close, you probably won't hear me. I probably kiai more with my facial expressions than with my voice anyway.

I'm quite a bit more vocal as uke than as tori, but not by conscious choice.

Michael Hacker
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Old 09-01-2007, 05:25 AM   #45
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "real" kiai (as opposed to a pretend one?) and what is "correct" breathing? "Correct" in what way? How?
What Ted said.

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 09-01-2007, 01:18 PM   #46
Ryan Sanford
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

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Matthew Feldmeyer wrote: View Post
Does anyone utilize kiai or breath training in their aikido practice, and if so has it helped you bring your training to a higher level?
My dojo takes often practices kiai, especially when delivering atemi or striking as uke. I'm proud to say that my Sensei (who studied Karate when he was younger) regularly deals with the problems mentioned in the article. If he sees that a student is striking ineffectively, or simply not using their hips/center to strike, he will correct them.

"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self." - Aldous Huxley
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:31 PM   #47
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Re: What happened to the kiai and breath training?

I found this while researching something else.

[url]http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/mudra.html[/url

"Mudra, like these fantastic powers, are found in many koryu as part of their esoteric nature."

That is why, too, I wince when I see karate students at a tournament who scream out a nonsensical "ki-yah!" or some sort of odd shout that they made up on their own. A kiai is different from a kakegoe. A kakegoe is a simple shout. A kiai is a shout, to be sure, but its older meaning is to "meet" (-ai) "each other's spiritual energy" (ki-). Each ryu, therefore, had special kiai that signified their own style's use of spiritual energy as expressed in a vocal explosion, or kiai. There were only specific sounds, such as "ei," "toh," "yah," or so on, that had certain martial meanings in esoteric mikkyo, which were used in koryu. Kiai, therefore, were like secret mantras to the koryu; special words of power that should not be used lightly. When you did a kiai, you were directly attacking your opponent's spirit with words of power that would literally shock them into defeat. The kiai "yah," for example, pronounced in a certain way, represented the force of a released arrow (in Japanese: ya). Your voice was supposed to penetrate the person's spirit like an arrow. The other kiai had other meanings and were used for specific movements."

David
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