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Old 08-24-2007, 08:38 AM   #26
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: History of Shomenuchi

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
As I see it, "shomenuchi" refers to a strike to the top of the head while "shomenate" refers to the more linear strike to the front of the head/face.
Shomenuchi is pretty much a useless way to attack someone empty handed but we can learn some things from training with it as an attack.
Shomenate, OTH, can be a very quick and effective attack. Sometimes we like to bring it from down low as a palm strike to the chin. Is that still shomenate or is that drifting into the relm of tsuki?
Thanks, I suppose my confusion was down to the fact that we tend to just refer to shomenate as shomenuchi too, the idea being that the initial movement creates space before the attackers hand comes down again from the top toward the attackers head. Options to strike are available anywhere along this arc obviously so I suppose the naming convention we tend to use comes from the last part.

Thanks

Mike

PS - Surely everything drifts into the realm of tsuki eventually

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:21 AM   #27
kokyu
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Re: History of Shomenuchi

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
I have just come back from a very interesting trip to Malaysia and Brunei, where they appear to start from the back foot. I suspect this was a convention established for the purposes of teaching maai etc, since no swordwork has been officially taught in the dojos I visited. I myself have been brought up on the kumi-tachi model (as seen in the early Saito volumes), where everything starts from ai-hanmi.
Hmmm... that's a good point, but dojos in Singapore have official classes for swordwork and they also start from gyaku hanmi for shomenuchi.

Also, I should correct myself about "the split into Ki no Kenkyukai, Aikikai, Tomiki and Yoshinkan". If I'm not mistaken, the Yoshinkan and Tomiki groups were formed prior to O-Sensei's passing away and before Tohei Sensei became the Head Instructor.

Last edited by kokyu : 08-24-2007 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:43 AM   #28
kokyu
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Re: History of Shomenuchi

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
Hmmm... that's a good point, but dojos in Singapore have official classes for swordwork and they also start from gyaku hanmi for shomenuchi...
Then again, maybe the weapons classes were only regularized some time after the dojos became established... i.e. they were not a feature from the very beginning.

What I also know is that Tamura Sensei had a big influence on the beginnings of Aikido in Singapore. The UK dojo I mentioned in the first post had strong Ki Society influence. If I remember correctly, the AAA was founded by the late Toyoda Sensei, who followed the Ki Society for some time. Finally, the USAF-WR dojo that I also mentioned was started by a student of the late Nakazono Sensei... so, is there a pattern?

Last edited by kokyu : 08-24-2007 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 08-24-2007, 10:40 AM   #29
jonreading
 
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Re: History of Shomenuchi

I think maybe instruction should be the key factor in determining footwork: A. creating a system by which students can learn a technique; B. understanding a firm reason for establishing the footwork pattern.

I know aikido people to confuse ai hanmi and gyaku hanmi, let alone why they attack with which foot. I would imagine either stance has openings, and I would not argue one over the other. I tend to like ai hanmi for the relation to aiki ken/kendo. Students need an easy way to remember foot alignment same foot forward is unually easy enough to remember. We also general attack with the stylized shomenuchi strike (attacking with the back hand while stepping forward), although we will use shomenate on occassion.

As a side note, I think Japan went through a kendo phase at some point in th [relatively] near past; could that have influenced the popularity of a sword-based stance alignment (such as ai hanmi) in Japan of which the first post spoke?
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Old 08-24-2007, 11:01 AM   #30
wayneth
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Re: History of Shomenuchi

In our club, we perform a shomen-uchi from the back hand and very very rarely from the front hand. An example would be we start in hidari-hanmi and strike and end up in a migi-hanmi stance (and vice versa).
However I recently attended the BAF Summer School and Sugawara Shigeru Sensei made a comment about shomen-uchi. He was saying (from my understanding) that a shomen strike shouldn't be a strike because when the hand is raised at head height, it leaves an opening for the tori to strike at the face. Instead it should be like a Tsuki to the face, almost like the way Yoshinkan Aikido performs Shomen Uchi Ikkyo Omote.
A example is in the below link, more when Kanetsuka Sensei performs the first ura technique.
http://www.ryushinkan.org/videos/irimi.nage.mov
wayne
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:39 PM   #31
kokyu
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Re: History of Shomenuchi

Quote:
Wayne Price wrote:
However I recently attended the BAF Summer School and Sugawara Shigeru Sensei made a comment about shomen-uchi. He was saying (from my understanding) that a shomen strike shouldn't be a strike because when the hand is raised at head height, it leaves an opening for the tori to strike at the face. Instead it should be like a Tsuki to the face, almost like the way Yoshinkan Aikido performs Shomen Uchi Ikkyo Omote.
Interesting, but true... I've always been told that katatedori from hanmi handatchi and morotedori for tachiwaza should always see uke on the 'outside' of tori's arm... this protects uke from being kicked (which would happen if he stood directly in front of tori)

... so, logically, uke should attack from a position which has minimal openings... and this would apply to both grabs and strikes?
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:50 PM   #32
NagaBaba
 
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Re: History of Shomenuchi

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
Actually, I was scolded by a very serious Federation beginner once (who was visiting an ASU dojo) to attack with the "proper foot." She was quite put out that I wasn't paying attention. It wasn't until a few months later when I was training in a Fed. dojo that I realized MY ORGANIZATION basically doesn't pay much attention to this.

The ASU teacher in the first dojo actively discourages this practice, but I see a value in attacking from GYAKU HANMI for beginners as it makes things easier. The danger, of course, is that folks will become reliant on this as a crutch.
I was scolded by very serious 6th dan from very serious Fed that I'm attacking with wrog foot... I couldn't believe he is serious....Yes, he was. What a sad reality....

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:20 AM   #33
Don_Modesto
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Re: History of Shomenuchi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I was scolded by very serious 6th dan from very serious Fed that I'm attacking with wrog foot... I couldn't believe he is serious....Yes, he was. What a sad reality....
Szczepan!

Glad to have you back!

Where you been?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:51 AM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: History of Shomenuchi

Just when he thinks he's out, we ppppppuuuuuuullllllll him back in! ;D

B,
R (glad to see you post!)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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