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Old 08-28-2007, 11:03 PM   #51
PeterR
 
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
www.fightingmaster.com/masters/ueshiba/index.htm
here. check out this link. nice little bio and .......
asked when was aikido established, o'sensei answered
"the day I was born."
I think the name changes are only of historical interest and don't designate any fundamental shifts in Ueshiba's approach to his art.

That there was a gradual change there is no doubt, a change which reflected Ueshiba M. himself not just the influence of his son who I think often gets a bum rap.

I personally prefer the aikido of his earlier students but that's just me however, even my teacher was sent by Tomiki to live with one of Ueshiba's later students for six years to learn excellent technique. I think the aikibudo/aikido distinction being made is a false construct.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:51 PM   #52
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I think the name changes are only of historical interest and don't designate any fundamental shifts in Ueshiba's approach to his art.

That there was a gradual change there is no doubt, a change which reflected Ueshiba M. himself not just the influence of his son who I think often gets a bum rap.

I personally prefer the aikido of his earlier students but that's just me however, even my teacher was sent by Tomiki to live with one of Ueshiba's later students for six years to learn excellent technique. I think the aikibudo/aikido distinction being made is a false construct.
I believe it is a 'human construct' that only discusses a certain level of experience. The thing that isn't highlighted as much in discussions as history are the realizations of nature that O'Sensei experienced and was profoundly transformed through. These are not historical experiences, but personal and phenomenal experiences. They are moments of re-defining all that went before and putting them in to practice. As in the quote,when was aikido developed.....'when I was born'. You could still do all the same moves, but with a new realization they can become fastened to another level of knowing. And through practice this exchange of form and insight become a continuous cycle. That is how I know I'm doing aikido and not just waza. That is the remarkable element of aikido, for me. Same moves, different understanding.

As for Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei, peoples poor attitudes towards him remind me of the bumpersticker "If you haven't thanked a farmer, don't talk with your mouth full."

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-29-2007 at 12:02 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:59 PM   #53
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I think the name changes are only of historical interest and don't designate any fundamental shifts in Ueshiba's approach to his art.

I personally prefer the aikido of his earlier students but that's just me however, even my teacher was sent by Tomiki to live with one of Ueshiba's later students for six years to learn excellent technique. I think the aikibudo/aikido distinction being made is a false construct.
I completely agree with this.

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
That there was a gradual change there is no doubt, a change which reflected Ueshiba M. himself not just the influence of his son who I think often gets a bum rap.
I look at the techniques of Saito Sensei, and compare them to Kisshomaru and Tohei, and I see a lot of difference. The fact is that Saito Sensei tought from O’Sensei 1936 book Budo, hence there was less change then some think. Personal this evidence is quite clear.

Regards,

Last edited by wildaikido : 08-29-2007 at 12:08 AM.

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:10 AM   #54
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I believe it is a 'human construct' that only discusses a certain level of experience. The thing that isn't highlighted as much in discussions as history are the realizations of nature that O'Sensei experienced and was profoundly transformed through. These are not historical experiences, but personal and phenomenal experiences. They are moments of re-defining all that went before and putting them in to practice. As in the quote,when was aikido developed.....'when I was born'. You could still do all the same moves, but with a new realization they can become fastened to another level of knowing. And through practice this exchange of form and insight become a continuous cycle. That is how I know I'm doing aikido and not just waza. That is the remarkable element of aikido, for me. Same moves, different understanding.
This is exactly why in Yoseikan we can learn Karate and Judo techniques, but we are still doing Aikido.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:26 AM   #55
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Hi David,

Back in June 1996 my brother and I spent one day at the Yoseikan Hombu in Shizuoka. We had one private class with Mochizuki Kancho and later on joined in with the evening class with Washizu sensei and Tezuka sensei. Kancho and his wife watched that class too.

Yes I did get to train with Washizu sensei. and I think Tezuka sensei. I thought they were both good especially with sutemi. .I found everyone to be very polite and friendly. Mochizuki Kancho was very approachable and I felt so privileged to have him teach us personally. He came onto the mats a few times to show explain a few kimewaza. He asked me if I could stay and train for a year, then tried to bargain it down to a month then a week. We were there only for one day and I promised to come back. I did return to Japan a few times but unfortunately never made it back to the Yoseikan Hombu.

I saw Yoshi's video of his trip to Japan in 1990 with his son Scott many years ago. He was a lot happier back then...

Thanks for sharing your memories of Yoshi wiht me.

Best Regards,

Darin
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:29 AM   #56
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Just want to say thanks to Graeme Wild for doing up the Yoseikan Aikido section on Aikiweb.
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:30 AM   #57
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
This is exactly why in Yoseikan we can learn Karate and Judo techniques, but we are still doing Aikido.

Regards,
Yes. With observation and participation of natural law and principles (choose the language that resonates with you) the arena broadens in many directions to become more inclusive ( or universal).

I believe it helps to read O'Senseis words to maintain a connection to his natural experiences and subsequent wisdom. This gives a mental framework as well as a physical framework for aikido practice.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:32 AM   #58
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

oops! Sorry not aikiweb. I meant to say Wikipedia
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:42 AM   #59
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Regular "kata" based aikido? Really, I donīt se anything special in this clip except the sutemi.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:08 AM   #60
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
oops! Sorry not aikiweb. I meant to say Wikipedia
I was just about to post and say "What The" Yoseikan Aikido Section on Aikiweb... But on wiki, yes. You have contributed as well. I just got addicted to Wiki for a while and went crazy.

If you have some images you don't mind releasing into the public domain, the Yoseikan page is lacking an image of the actual dojo. I did ask Branco, as I know he has an image of the outside, but he never got back to me. In general, more images of Mochizuki Kancho wouldn't hurt.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:01 AM   #61
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Why do I bother. You say he was using the term Aikibudo to refer to his art in 1911 - I say late 1930s to early 1940s. None of the articles mention dates other than when the final conversion from Aikibudo to Aikido occured. There has never been an indication that Ueshiba resisted the name change - it actually made sense in the context of ju- ken- and so forth.
We can can go back and forth on this forever. The evidence is out there, I just can' remember where I read the information. Here is one article that talks about the influence. The original intention was not to change the name.

Really for me is not so much of the name change, but rather the mentality of PACIFISM in some Aikido methodologies. The roots of Aikibudo where about combat and self defense when you have to use it. The combative nature has been removed from some Aikido methodologies, Aikikai. The mentality that Aikido should not have combat elements is totally incorrect, when it's original intention was for combat.

O-Sensei's religious beliefs also contributed in important ways to the art he developed. O-Sensei joined the religious group Omotokyo in 1919, and he borrowed heavily from its philosophy and world-view as spiritual underpinnings for his martial art. To emphasize this, the changed the name of the art from Aikibudo ("the warrior's path of harmony") to Aikido ("the path of harmony") in 1942.
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:47 AM   #62
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I was just about to post and say "What The" Yoseikan Aikido Section on Aikiweb... But on wiki, yes. You have contributed as well. I just got addicted to Wiki for a while and went crazy.

If you have some images you don't mind releasing into the public domain, the Yoseikan page is lacking an image of the actual dojo. I did ask Branco, as I know he has an image of the outside, but he never got back to me. In general, more images of Mochizuki Kancho wouldn't hurt.

Regards,
Its good that you did the entry on Yoseikan Aikido. I did the one on Unno Sensei but I don't have any decent pictures of him. I only have recent pics of him and his home dojo where I think you and I first met. I didn't take any pictures when I visited the hombu in 1996. Does Hans have any good pics of Yosh in a gi when he was teaching at the Jan de Jong dojo? If so and he agrees are you able to upload one onto Wikipedia.

I believe Branko and Unno Sensei's family took all the videos, books and pictures from his house after he died. Its unfortunate I didn't get a chance to make copies as there were some really cool footage of Mochizuki, Yosh and Sano from the 70s and 80s.

You may have better luck with Roy Hebden, Brett Nener or Ross Taylor.
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:57 AM   #63
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
The fact is that Saito Sensei tought from O'Sensei 1936 book Budo, hence there was less change then some think. Personal this evidence is quite clear.

Regards,
I think this is a bit of a misstatement. If I remember correctly, Saito Sensei was either unaware or had forgotten about the Noma dojo photos/Budo book until it was brought to his attention by Stan Pranin. Stan had found the book, and thought that it bore a striking resemblance to how Saito Sensei taught on a daily basis. After bringing it to his attention, Saito Sensei would apparently pull out the book as evidence that he was not doing Iwama-Aikido/Saito Sensei's aikido, but rather was preserving what he had been taught by OSensei.

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Old 08-29-2007, 09:00 AM   #64
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I think this is a bit of a misstatement. If I remember correctly, Saito Sensei was either unaware or had forgotten about the Noma dojo photos/Budo book until it was brought to his attention by Stan Pranin. Stan had found the book, and thought that it bore a striking resemblance to how Saito Sensei taught on a daily basis. After bringing it to his attention, Saito Sensei would apparently pull out the book as evidence that he was not doing Iwama-Aikido/Saito Sensei's aikido, but rather was preserving what he had been taught by OSensei.
This is my understanding, too, Chris.
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:11 AM   #65
David Orange
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I've heard "take the fight out of the fighter" described as "neutralizing the attack without 'neutralizing' the attacker". And I've also heard aikido described by one of my teachers, Anno Sensei, as an 'art of friendship'. While Anno Sensei formally represents neither one of the traditions mentioned in the thread name, the concepts seem to permeate.
Jen,

It seems the heart of the matter is not to brutalize or injure the attacker when it's not necessary. Once he's out of the fight, you don't gratuitously hurt him--assuming we are able to put him out of the fight to begin with. That was where Mochizuki Sensei concentrated and it was why he had to stress not to do more than necessary.

Anyway, thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-29-2007, 09:15 AM   #66
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
We can can go back and forth on this forever. The evidence is out there, I just can' remember where I read the information. Here is one article that talks about the influence. The original intention was not to change the name.

Really for me is not so much of the name change, but rather the mentality of PACIFISM in some Aikido methodologies. The roots of Aikibudo where about combat and self defense when you have to use it. The combative nature has been removed from some Aikido methodologies, Aikikai. The mentality that Aikido should not have combat elements is totally incorrect, when it's original intention was for combat.

O-Sensei's religious beliefs also contributed in important ways to the art he developed. O-Sensei joined the religious group Omotokyo in 1919, and he borrowed heavily from its philosophy and world-view as spiritual underpinnings for his martial art. To emphasize this, the changed the name of the art from Aikibudo ("the warrior's path of harmony") to Aikido ("the path of harmony") in 1942.
Here is the link to the article.

http://www.aiki-buken.com/history.html
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:16 AM   #67
David Orange
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

[quote=Graham Wild;188001]This is exactly why in Yoseikan we can learn Karate and Judo techniques, but we are still doing Aikido.[quote]

Peen-pon! (as the Japanese like to say)

Exactly!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-29-2007, 09:33 AM   #68
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Back in June 1996 my brother and I spent one day at the Yoseikan Hombu in Shizuoka.
You went to a real samurai's place, then.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
We had one private class with Mochizuki Kancho and later on joined in with the evening class with Washizu sensei and Tezuka sensei. Kancho and his wife watched that class too.
It's amazing how much aikido that little old lady could watch. She spent hours in the dojo watching everyone train. I wish there were some way I could repay her for all her kindness and labor on our behalf.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Yes I did get to train with Washizu sensei. and I think Tezuka sensei. I thought they were both good especially with sutemi.
Tezuka was senior, but Washizu seemed more skilled in some ways. Still, after you knew them awhile, it was clear that Tezuka was senior for a reason. He was very pure. I liked Washizu more as a person and as a model, but Tezuka was a great individual as well. I think I must say he carried more weight, so maybe that made him a little more distant, but he was very helpful to me and he really served Mochizuki Sensei with loyal attention.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I found everyone to be very polite and friendly.
You probably also met Kenmotsu Sensei, who was slightly junior to Tezuka and Washizu. He was maybe the friendliest. He was a farmer and I think he really personified the "yo" of yoseikan --as in "cultivate." He really tried to "bring out" the best in the people who studied with him. Those three guys were constantly at the dojo, helping Mochizuki Sensei and sacrificing in many ways beyond the technical practice for yoseikan's sake. They all got the menkyo from Sensei, too.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Mochizuki Kancho was very approachable and I felt so privileged to have him teach us personally. He came onto the mats a few times to show explain a few kimewaza.
He could be sitting on the couch near the door and could see the details of what you were doing all the way down by the kamiza! He would come all the way over there and correct the way you were holding your fingers! One day, I was walking toward my apartment near the dojo and I passed the dojo on the other side of the street. Sensei happened to be standing in the door and he saw me across the street and met my eye and nodded. He had incredible eyesight when he was in his mid eighties.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
He asked me if I could stay and train for a year, then tried to bargain it down to a month then a week. We were there only for one day and I promised to come back. I did return to Japan a few times but unfortunately never made it back to the Yoseikan Hombu.
Sensei was terribly eager to teach anyone who wanted to learn, but he especially liked to work with people who had experience and desire to learn more. He would really put himself out to help anyone. It's too bad you couldn't get back there. I wasn't able to get there after 1995 but I did go by one day in 2003 and saw that the name had been changed to Seifukai. It's a long story, but Tezuka, Washizu and many of the other old-time Shizuoka deshi started that group after some disagreements with YWF organizational policies. I understand that Sato, a prison guard, bought the old dojo and teaches there now. He was great, himself, and I think he got godan in yoseikan aikido from Mochizuki Sensei.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I saw Yoshi's video of his trip to Japan in 1990 with his son Scott many years ago. He was a lot happier back then...
Scott's probably thirty by now. He was a kid back then. We were at some place for the party and Scott asked me, "Where's the loo?"

I said, "What?"

I think he said, "The dunny. Where's the loo?"

I didn't know what he meant! We finally figured that out, though. He was a nice guy, too.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Thanks for sharing your memories of Yoshi wiht me.
I'm sure Unno Sensei doesn't remember me, but I remember him.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 08-29-2007, 09:50 AM   #69
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote: Regular "kata" based aikido? Really, I donīt se anything special in this clip except the sutemi.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

---------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see anything different in this either (other than maybe the sutemi, although come to think of it I've been taught that a few times, just rarely)?? What are we supposed to be looking at? -- it doesn't look any different than the AIkido I'm used to.
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:57 AM   #70
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I think this is a bit of a misstatement. If I remember correctly, Saito Sensei was either unaware or had forgotten about the Noma dojo photos/Budo book until it was brought to his attention by Stan Pranin. Stan had found the book, and thought that it bore a striking resemblance to how Saito Sensei taught on a daily basis. After bringing it to his attention, Saito Sensei would apparently pull out the book as evidence that he was not doing Iwama-Aikido/Saito Sensei's aikido, but rather was preserving what he had been taught by OSensei.
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
This is my understanding, too, Chris.
I have seen footage of him at seminars teaching from the book (LA I think). He re-released the book with his comments, and a video to match (I have both). And you just back up my point with the historical facts, which I was aware of. That is Mr Pranin though Saito Sensei's teachings in the 80's (I think) look like this book from the 30's! So thanks.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:11 AM   #71
wildaikido
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Its good that you did the entry on Yoseikan Aikido. I did the one on Unno Sensei but I don't have any decent pictures of him. I only have recent pics of him and his home dojo where I think you and I first met. I didn't take any pictures when I visited the hombu in 1996. Does Hans have any good pics of Yosh in a gi when he was teaching at the Jan de Jong dojo? If so and he agrees are you able to upload one onto Wikipedia.
I will ask Sensei when he returns from his European tour in a few weeks. If he does, I will definitely upload one.

I have tried to start taking more photos, as I regret not having some (as I am sure you do having gone to the Yoseikan and not taken a 1000 ). I trained with Shihan Jan de Jong many times in Aikido, my first lesson was with him and Hans, I did my 6th and 4th kyu gradings with him, and I am sad to say, I have no photos of him, or me with him

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I believe Branko and Unno Sensei's family took all the videos, books and pictures from his house after he died. Its unfortunate I didn't get a chance to make copies as there were some really cool footage of Mochizuki, Yosh and Sano from the 70s and 80s.
I remember when I went to see Unno Sensei he showed me lots of books. It is a shame that they may not be used productively.

Quote:
Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
You may have better luck with Roy Hebden, Brett Nener or Ross Taylor.
These are options, although it would be easier for you to check with Roy. I have wanted to go back and train with Ross, but for the 5 months I was with him, I did not one "Yoseikan" techniques (judo karate sutemi), he said he had been reading lots of Aikikai books, so it just wasn't my thing. I have never met Brett, even though I was at the UWA club for a couple of months.

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:26 AM   #72
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I have seen footage of him at seminars teaching from the book (LA I think). He re-released the book with his comments, and a video to match (I have both). And you just back up my point with the historical facts, which I was aware of. That is Mr Pranin though Saito Sensei's teachings in the 80's (I think) look like this book from the 30's! So thanks.

Regards,
I took your initial comments to mean that the reason that Saito Sensei's aikido looks so much like Noma dojo photos was that he "taught from a book," meaning that over the years he referenced these photos to confirm that he wasn't making significant changes to what he was teaching. I do not think that is correct. I think that scenario is a lot different than finding a book/series of photos after decades of teaching and noting the striking similarity to what he had been doing all along (my point). The fact that he re-released the book with his own comments, or pulls it out at seminars does not take away the distinction.

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Old 08-29-2007, 10:55 AM   #73
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I took your initial comments to mean that the reason that Saito Sensei's aikido looks so much like Noma dojo photos was that he "taught from a book," meaning that over the years he referenced these photos to confirm that he wasn't making significant changes to what he was teaching. I do not think that is correct. I think that scenario is a lot different than finding a book/series of photos after decades of teaching and noting the striking similarity to what he had been doing all along (my point). The fact that he re-released the book with his own comments, or pulls it out at seminars does not take away the distinction.
I just re read my initial post on the topic, it is not specific, but it never has to be for an interpretation. I meant to include the fact that since he started training in the 40's (?) so Saito Sensei never saw these photos or the book, hence the fact that his Aikido looks like them means Aikido really did not change from the 30's through to the 60's when O'Sensei passed. This is supported by his reference to the book in seminars.

I believe most of the changes were made formally after '72 when Aikido was systemised. Not by Saito, or Shioda, or Tomiki, or Mochizuki Kancho, but by those in charge of the Aikikai.

Regards,

Graham Wild
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:00 AM   #74
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Oh?

A) That is a demo, not keiko

B) Video cameras are everywhere...take a video, post it on youtube, and let us compare.

Best,
Ron
Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:03 AM   #75
PeterR
 
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

Quote:
Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I believe most of the changes were made formally after '72 when Aikido was systemised. Not by Saito, or Shioda, or Tomiki, or Mochizuki Kancho, but by those in charge of the Aikikai.[
A minor nuance but each of these men did systemize aikido - in a different way to be sure - but it was still aikido.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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