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Old 08-28-2007, 10:39 AM   #26
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I have never heard of O-Sensei using sutemi waza, but the sutemi waza of the yoseikan are all the direct inventions of Minoru Mochizuki. Some people say that he got them from gyokushin ryu jujutsu, but he never actually saw the gyokushin sutemi waza. He was uchi deshi to Kyuzo Minfune, who was an expert at sutemi and he used Mifune's example with hints from his experience in gyokushin to develop a sutemi version of pretty much every aikido technique he had learned.

If you have any examples of O-Sensei's using sutemi waza, it would be interesting to hear about that.

Best to you.

David
As I am sure your aware David, Han Sutemi (half sacrifice) is any technique going to a knee or sitting, so these would have been done by O'Sensei. More relevant is the hanmi hantachi with an attacker grabbing from behind. From here O'Sensei rolls back under his uke and puts one foot under his chin and the other behind his neck. He then throws him forward. This is in his book Budo, and in the 1936 film.

Regards,

Graham

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Old 08-28-2007, 11:06 AM   #27
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
the sutemi waza of the yoseikan are all the direct inventions of Minoru Mochizuki. Some people say that he got them from gyokushin ryu jujutsu, but he never actually saw the gyokushin sutemi waza.
The sutemi in the various youtube clips popping up in this and other threads look quite judoish to me. Might there also be some people who suggest he might have learned a thing or two at the Kodokan? (Or is that just boringly obvious?)
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:13 AM   #28
wildaikido
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Sean Orchard wrote: View Post
The sutemi in the various youtube clips popping up in this and other threads look quite judoish to me. Might there also be some people who suggest he might have learned a thing or two at the Kodokan? (Or is that just boringly obvious?)
There are most if not all judo sutemi waza in Yoseikan, Mochizuki Kancho was after all a Deshi of Mifune Sensei. Most of the sutemi unique to Yoseikan involve locks and chokes that you could not do in judo due to the rules.

Graham Wild
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:25 AM   #29
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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By who. Mochizuki was learning Daito-ryu aikijujutsu from Ueshiba, it was only later that Ueshiba started changing the name. If I recall the names progressed via Ueshiba-ryu, Asahi-ryu, and finally aiki budo before the name change to aikido. We are talking late 1930s to early 1940s for the time Aikibudo was used.

I am sorry - but I think a lot of the confusion about aikido comes from inacurracies like this.
Here is an article that talks about the conversion of Aikibudo to Aikido around 1942. Aikibudo was used years before the new found Aikido. It's very clear. Wikipedia has references to Aikibudo being used prior to Aikido. Ueshiba was mixing his previous martial experience of Jujutsu and Judo prior to the creation of Aikido.

You are dead wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=87
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:47 AM   #30
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Not true. The original Aikido (Aikibudo) was for combat and self defense. Aikido changed after the religious conversion of Ueshiba. The early students have preserved the original combat Aikido.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo
Probably just me, but this video looked more like Combat Hapkido.

That ought to raise a fuss....

Last edited by Steven : 08-28-2007 at 11:48 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:55 AM   #31
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Okay, basically by definition, sacrifice techniques are techniques or desperation. O'Sensei would never have needed to use them. His superior awareness meant he could use "simple" techniques to overcome his attackers. We, however, until we develop that awareness, which is the goal of budo, have to rely on things that will work in a pinch, and sutemi waza work if you are overwhelmed by an attacker, and you want to deal with him quickly.

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Old 08-28-2007, 11:57 AM   #32
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Here is an article that talks about the conversion of Aikibudo to Aikido around 1942. Aikibudo was used years before the new found Aikido. It's very clear. Wikipedia has references to Aikibudo being used prior to Aikido. Ueshiba was mixing his previous martial experience of Jujutsu and Judo prior to the creation of Aikido.

You are dead wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=87
If you think that what was being referred to as "Aikibudo" in that article was much of anything like what was in the video you posted, you are delusional.

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Old 08-28-2007, 12:12 PM   #33
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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If you think that what was being referred to as "Aikibudo" in that article was much of anything like what was in the video you posted, you are delusional.
The issue is combat vs pacifism. The combat elements from the original Aikido have been removed.

Neither Takeda, nor Ueshiba, INTENDED for Ueshiba's art to have a new name. AIKIDO was imposed by the Dai Nippon Butokukai and accepted by Ueshiba's representative there, MINORU HIRAI Sensei. From then on, the former Aikibudo of Ueshiba changed its name to Aikido and included also the kyu/dan ranking sponsored by the Butokukai.

O-Sensei's religious beliefs also contributed in important ways to the art he developed. O-Sensei joined the religious group Omotokyo in 1919, and he borrowed heavily from its philosophy and world-view as spiritual underpinnings for his martial art. To emphasize this, the changed the name of the art from Aikibudo ("the warrior's path of harmony") to Aikido ("the path of harmony") in 1942.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:18 PM   #34
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Neither Takeda, nor Ueshiba, INTENDED for Ueshiba's art to have a new name. AIKIDO was imposed by the Dai Nippon Butokukai and accepted by Ueshiba's representative there, MINORU HIRAI Sensei. From then on, the former Aikibudo of Ueshiba changed its name to Aikido and included also the kyu/dan ranking sponsored by the Butokukai.
Now that is a little far, I think O'Sensei initially prefered the use of the term Budo (since he used it), but he liked the term Aikido, which can be seen from his brushing of the word, and using it.

Last edited by wildaikido : 08-28-2007 at 12:21 PM.

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Old 08-28-2007, 12:20 PM   #35
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed.
Ya know, I used to believe that, too, until Peter Goldsbury pointed out the obvious: If you watch the 2nd Doshu's vids or look at his books, ATEMI is everywhere. Where did we get this idea?!

Also, as is often pointed out, Aikikai is an umbrella, not a style. You've just dismissed a whole handful of people. I wonder if Osawa, Arikawa, Kuroiwa, Saotome, Chiba, Shibata, Isoyama et al. weren't all pretty fair scrappers in their time.

SUTEMI--Don't know about the mainstream, but Saotome teaches it on occasion.

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Let's face it, Aikikai methodology is for love and peace, not for fighting. Aikibudo methodology is for fighting when you have to, that's the difference.
Pretty broad boasting here.

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Old 08-28-2007, 12:33 PM   #36
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Ya know, I used to believe that, too, until Peter Goldsbury pointed out the obvious: If you watch the 2nd Doshu's vids or look at his books, ATEMI is everywhere. Where did we get this idea?!

Also, as is often pointed out, Aikikai is an umbrella, not a style. You've just dismissed a whole handful of people. I wonder if Osawa, Arikawa, Kuroiwa, Saotome, Chiba, Shibata, Isoyama et al. weren't all pretty fair scrappers in their time.

SUTEMI--Don't know about the mainstream, but Saotome teaches it on occasion.

Pretty broad boasting here.
It's not my intention to boast, but to revive a history that is ignored.

Shioda Gozo Kancho learned aikido (referred to as "aikibudo" during his earlier years of training) during the pre-war era before WWII. However, Morihei's deep involvment in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded (and less practical minded) - an approach the Yoshinkan branch did not subscribe to.

http://www.aiki-buken.com/history.html
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:35 PM   #37
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
It's not my intention to boast, but to revive a history that is ignored.

Shioda Gozo Kancho learned aikido (referred to as "aikibudo" during his earlier years of training) during the pre-war era before WWII. However, Morihei's deep involvment in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded (and less practical minded) - an approach the Yoshinkan branch did not subscribe to.

http://www.aiki-buken.com/history.html
No no no, O'Sensei started with the Omoto Kyo in the 1910's well before Mochizuki or Shioda. It was just as important to him then as it was at the end of his life. If any thing actually changed him, it was the war man!

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Old 08-28-2007, 12:37 PM   #38
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Morihei's deep involvment in the esoteric Omoto-kyo of religion and his varied experience later seriously altered the art into something more philosophical minded (and less practical minded) - an approach the Yoshinkan branch did not subscribe to.
Haven't heard anyone complaining about Ueshiba's fighting ability. Indeed, one person who trained with him said that he became MORE effective after his association with Omoto (apologies for not having a source for that.)

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Old 08-28-2007, 12:55 PM   #39
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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No no no, O'Sensei started with the Omoto Kyo in the 1910's well before Mochizuki or Shioda. It was just as important to him then as it was at the end of his life. If any thing actually changed him, it was the war man!
I'm not debating when he entered Oomoto, but rather how it changed Aikido from a combat ready art to an art of PACIFISM. Aikibudo,Yoseikan and Yoshikhan did not adhere to this conversion. They kept to the roots of combat, although they have develop there own variations of. But the fundamentals can still be found.

Mochizuki and Shioda were direct students of Ueshiba and know Aikido better than we do. They passed some combat traditions from the roots of Aikibudo that are not respected by some. It's more of a mentality issue than anything.

Cheers
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:02 PM   #40
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I'm not debating when he entered Oomoto, but rather how it changed Aikido from a combat ready art to an art of PACIFISM. Aikibudo,Yoseikan and Yoshikhan did not adhere to this conversion. They kept to the roots of combat, although they have develop there own variations of. But the fundamentals can still be found.

Mochizuki and Shioda were direct students of Ueshiba and know Aikido better than we do. They passed some combat traditions from the roots of Aikibudo that are not respected by some. It's more of a mentality issue than anything.

Cheers
I can assure you that in the end Mochizuki agreed with all the things he learnt from O'Sensei, including the idea that winning is wrong, hence organised competition is wrong, and we train for peace, but to do this we must prepare for war.

Look at Saito Sensei's Aikido, it is Identical to what you see O'Sensei do in the 30's, both in his books, and in Demonstrations. Hence it is what Mochizuki and Shioda learnt from O'Sensei. Saito Sensei was doing this in front of O'Sensei on the mats in class in Iwama into the 60's, hence, O'Sensei's Aikido changed less than you think!

The main changes made to the teaching methods at the Aikikai were under Kisshomaru and Tohei.

Regards,

Last edited by wildaikido : 08-28-2007 at 01:05 PM.

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Old 08-28-2007, 02:57 PM   #41
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Sean Orchard wrote: View Post
The sutemi in the various youtube clips popping up in this and other threads look quite judoish to me. Might there also be some people who suggest he might have learned a thing or two at the Kodokan? (Or is that just boringly obvious?)
You are talking about yoseikan sutemi waza, right?

As I said, Mochizuki Sensei was uchi deshi to Kyuzo Mifune, who was spectacular with sutemi waza and all the yoseikan sutemi are done very close to Mifune's style (or were in the old Shizuoka yoseikan). So, yes, the kodokan influence is very strong in Minoru Mochizuki's yoseikan.

David

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Old 08-28-2007, 02:59 PM   #42
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
As I am sure your aware David, Han Sutemi (half sacrifice) is any technique going to a knee or sitting, so these would have been done by O'Sensei. More relevant is the hanmi hantachi with an attacker grabbing from behind. From here O'Sensei rolls back under his uke and puts one foot under his chin and the other behind his neck. He then throws him forward. This is in his book Budo, and in the 1936 film.
Graham, it's true that dropping to a knee is technically han sutemi, but I I think the reference is more to the full-body drop from standing. And for that reason, I wouldn't really consider the rolling back into the neck throw as sutemi per se, but you do make some good points there.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:02 PM   #43
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Graham Wild wrote: View Post
There are most if not all judo sutemi waza in Yoseikan, Mochizuki Kancho was after all a Deshi of Mifune Sensei. Most of the sutemi unique to Yoseikan involve locks and chokes that you could not do in judo due to the rules.
The unique thing about Mochizuki Sensei's sutemi waza is that he pretty much included everything Mifune taught and used that to find sutemi variations of a wide range of aikido techniques, such as kote gaeshi, for instance, which, as you say, would not be legal in judo. He created some really unique and intersting forms that way.

David

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Old 08-28-2007, 06:05 PM   #44
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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I think it was both to do the best aikido he could do and the best all-around martial art he could do. And to him, the best martial art would naturally use aiki. While modern yoseikan is a single art (though I thought they had "divisions" for aikido, judo, karate, kenjutsu, etc.), Minoru Mochizuki maintained an "aikido" class until he left Japan at an old age (mid-90s, I think, around the year 2000).

Anyway...I see you're in Perth. Have you trained with Unno Sensei, Mochizuki Sensei's old student?

David
I am not that clued up on the YWF but I think they do have categories for their techniques such as aiki, kempo, jujitsu and kenjutsu etc in their syllabus.

Unno Sensei told me that the Yoseikan aikido (actual aikido techniques) used to be a lot more combat orientated but had become a lot softer to cater for more students. He also said because the current senior aikido students are also judoka there is a greater emphasis on judo techniques. In Unno Sensei's case his aikido was influenced by karate and Yoshinkan and Tomiki aikido.

My comments before weren't meant to criticize Yoseikan Aikido just stating from my experiences that Yoseikan relies on its judo and karate techniques in order to be effective (more efficient) where as other styles like Yoshinkan and Tomiki seem to have better aikido techniques as they have specialized in that area.

Yes I trained with Unno Sensei for about 14 years.
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:54 PM   #45
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:56 PM   #46
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
I am not that clued up on the YWF but I think they do have categories for their techniques such as aiki, kempo, jujitsu and kenjutsu etc in their syllabus.
I don't keep up with it much myself. But a friend, Edgar Kruyning, in the Netherlands, is coming out with a nice book called "The Art of JuJutsu: the legacy of Minoru Mochizuki's 'Yoseikan'". It's a nice overview of both the old system and Hiroo Sensei's modern YWF. Edgar got godan from both Minoru Sensei and Hiroo Sensei. The new book should be coming out soon.

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Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
Unno Sensei told me that the Yoseikan aikido (actual aikido techniques) used to be a lot more combat orientated but had become a lot softer to cater for more students.
You recognized Washizu from the video clip. Did you ever train with him?

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Darin Hyde wrote: View Post
My comments before weren't meant to criticize Yoseikan Aikido just stating from my experiences that Yoseikan relies on its judo and karate techniques in order to be effective (more efficient) where as other styles like Yoshinkan and Tomiki seem to have better aikido techniques as they have specialized in that area.
I always thought it was a nicely rounded art--also very concentrated on sword.

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Yes I trained with Unno Sensei for about 14 years.
That's nice. I didn't know Unno Sensei very well, but I spent a memorable evening with him at Sano Sensei's birthday party and afterward about 1990 or 91, I guess. I think it was Sano's 60th. I've got pictures of it somewhere. Unno Sensei had his son with him. The boy was about 12, then, I think. I spent a good bit of time with Unno Sensei that evening as we went from place to place with the party. I trained with him a little and thought his aikido was nice and smooth. I'll always remember him.

Thanks and best to you.

David

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Old 08-28-2007, 07:02 PM   #47
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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Nice clip of Aikibudo. This how we practice in our dojo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Wo08VH6H1Y
That looks not unlike the old Shizuoka yoseikan. The big thing Mochizuki Sensei liked, though, was full sutemi randori--an hour or more of nothing but sutemi waza, night after night. After all the general technical practice, he would say, "Okay. Randori." and that meant sutemi randori, usually.

He always stressed that budo meant doing what was necessary, but never doing more than necessary to end the attack or "take the fight out of the attacker." He was a moral person, but not extremely religious like O-Sensei. Still, he revered O-Sensei as both a teacher and a deep friend.

Best to you.

David

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Old 08-28-2007, 10:20 PM   #48
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Here is an article that talks about the conversion of Aikibudo to Aikido around 1942. Aikibudo was used years before the new found Aikido. It's very clear. Wikipedia has references to Aikibudo being used prior to Aikido. Ueshiba was mixing his previous martial experience of Jujutsu and Judo prior to the creation of Aikido.

You are dead wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=87
Why do I bother. You say he was using the term Aikibudo to refer to his art in 1911 - I say late 1930s to early 1940s. None of the articles mention dates other than when the final conversion from Aikibudo to Aikido occured. There has never been an indication that Ueshiba resisted the name change - it actually made sense in the context of ju- ken- and so forth.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:25 PM   #49
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Re: AIkibudo/Yoseikan Techniques

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That looks not unlike the old Shizuoka yoseikan. The big thing Mochizuki Sensei liked, though, was full sutemi randori--an hour or more of nothing but sutemi waza, night after night. After all the general technical practice, he would say, "Okay. Randori." and that meant sutemi randori, usually.

He always stressed that budo meant doing what was necessary, but never doing more than necessary to end the attack or "take the fight out of the attacker." He was a moral person, but not extremely religious like O-Sensei. Still, he revered O-Sensei as both a teacher and a deep friend.

Best to you.

David
I've heard "take the fight out of the fighter" described as "neutralizing the attack without 'neutralizing' the attacker". And I've also heard aikido described by one of my teachers, Anno Sensei, as an 'art of friendship'. While Anno Sensei formally represents neither one of the traditions mentioned in the thread name, the concepts seem to permeate.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-28-2007 at 10:27 PM.

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Old 08-28-2007, 10:47 PM   #50
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Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Why do I bother. You say he was using the term Aikibudo to refer to his art in 1911 - I say late 1930s to early 1940s. None of the articles mention dates other than when the final conversion from Aikibudo to Aikido occured. There has never been an indication that Ueshiba resisted the name change - it actually made sense in the context of ju- ken- and so forth.
www.fightingmaster.com/masters/ueshiba/index.htm
here. check out this link. nice little bio and .......
asked when was aikido established, o'sensei answered
"the day I was born."

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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