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Old 08-27-2007, 03:41 PM   #226
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Democrats are crooks.
Republicans are nosy, self-righteous key-hole peeping crooks.

And they're hypocrites.

If they pass an anti-gay law, they sure-as-shooting get caught soliciting gay sex in a public restroom.

If they point the finger at a Democrat for having sex, they sure-as-shooting get revealed as cheating on their wives.

If they start a war, they do it for profit--not for the national good.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-27-2007 at 03:45 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:07 PM   #227
Mike Sigman
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Re: A President's Thought

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Republicans are nosy, self-righteous key-hole peeping crooks.
OK, how's this. Democrats are much, much more certain (statistically) to be crooks than Republicans. Care to bet?

Democrats are much less likely to be defending the country. Care to bet?

And incidentally, the sort of common myth about liberals being more educated than conservatives..... the WSJ did a pretty good piece on a big study that shatters that myth, if you want to Google it and read it, so let's not go there.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:43 PM   #228
Michael Varin
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Re: A President's Thought

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David Orange wrote: View Post
For one thing, when the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor, we didn't go "counter-attack" the French!
No, we "counter-attacked" the Germans.

During WWII we made our foray into the Middle East, as we replaced the British. It's a mistake to think that this started with GWB.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:50 PM   #229
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Re: A President's Thought

Instead of going into Iraq I wish the US would have commited those forces to Afghanistan and sorting that place out first. There is a lot to be said for not fighting a war on two fronts if you don't have to.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:44 PM   #230
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK, how's this. Democrats are much, much more certain (statistically) to be crooks than Republicans. Care to bet?
The Attorney General just resigned in shame.

I win.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Democrats are much less likely to be defending the country. Care to bet?
How about Clinton left us with historically phenomenal surpluses and warned George on his way out that Al Quaeda would be his biggest danger--then George ignored Al Quaeda, allowed it deliver devastating blows to the nation, then plunged us into an unnecessary war that is even more damaging than what AQ managed? I win again.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And incidentally, the sort of common myth about liberals being more educated than conservatives.....let's not go there.
I didn't go there. But if you want to, let's start with Bush's MBA and look at what he's done to the nation and education since.

Ooops. We all lose.

Zannen.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:46 PM   #231
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

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Grant Wagar wrote: View Post
Instead of going into Iraq I wish the US would have commited those forces to Afghanistan and sorting that place out first. There is a lot to be said for not fighting a war on two fronts if you don't have to.
Not only that, but we could have established a solid operational base from which to slam Iraq later on---when we'd developed a "PLAN"!

But we screwed Afghanistan. And now we are screwed.

Old George. Gotta puke on him.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-28-2007, 03:14 AM   #232
Taliesin
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Re: A President's Thought

Mike

"We could easily have waited until Europe was completely decimated and Hitler's forces spent" - isn't that what you did do in Europe - afer the Soviets had devestated Hitler's forces

My history tells me that the D-Day operations were launched from...er...where was it now...that place that destriyed German air superiority...

As far as Liberals - It was Liberals, who pursued military intervention in Kosovo

Still that's history which, for some strange reason, I don't think is your strong suit.

I'm also interested in the view that democratic elections are unlawful in Florida -
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:07 AM   #233
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Re: A President's Thought

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David Chalk wrote: View Post
"We could easily have waited until Europe was completely decimated and Hitler's forces spent" - isn't that what you did do in Europe - afer the Soviets had devestated Hitler's forces

My history tells me that the D-Day operations were launched from...er...where was it now...that place that destriyed German air superiority...
Do you think it was the Brits' power that was the backbone of D-Day, David? Come D-Day, do you think the Brits would have been launching any operations without the Americans or that there would have been a British country at that time?
Quote:
As far as Liberals - It was Liberals, who pursued military intervention in Kosovo
To what end? I don't know if you've been following the news in the last few days, but the Kosovo problem is still there and "negotiations" haven't done a thing. And BTW, if there was ever a pure "civil war", Kosovo was one.

Basically, the Europeans let a long-festering problem get out of hand by dithering and taking no action. Diplomacy failed. Many people died while the Europeans watched helplessly. Then they convinced their lap-dog Clinton to spend American money fixing the problem. If it had gone to a ground war, it would have mainly been American troops. There was never *any* rationale for Americans to be involved in Kosovo. None. At least Saddam made threats and had had a hand in the 1993 WTC bombing.
Quote:
Still that's history which, for some strange reason, I don't think is your strong suit.
I can tell by your silence about the Churchill quote that you seem not to have studied him in school.
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I'm also interested in the view that democratic elections are unlawful in Florida -
Source? Who said democratic elections are unlawful? You're not debating; you're just making sullen mouth noises, now.

Mike
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:31 AM   #234
Taliesin
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Re: A President's Thought

Mike with regards to D-Day my point was that we had already prevented invasion (something called the Battle of Britain) - that why there was a Britain by the time US troops became involved. - So I think there was a Britain at that time because there was a Britain - I told you I didn't think history was your strong suit, thanks for demonstating why .

The argument that the Kosovo problem is still there. Sorry Mike I don't really think that arguing about soverignty and independance is really the same problem as mass slaughter and ethnic cleansing - it's a 'Liberal' thing. BTW one side - (Serbs) slaughtering another (Ethnic Albanians) isn't a civil war.

I also like the "there was never any rational for Americans to be involved in Kosovo" - yeah human rights are only important where there's oil the USA can claim

Moving onto Churchill - Leaving aside that there is more to history than Churchill perhaps you can explain the relevance of the following

Tonypandy 1910

1926

"History shall be kind to me for I intend to write it"

Fulton, Missouri, 1946

With a bit of homework you should be able to give the answers to these.

As far as democratic elections being unlawful - isn't that why you claim the Florida supreme court was unlawful - because they wanted a democratic election.
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:35 AM   #235
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Re: A President's Thought

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK, how's this. Democrats are much, much more certain (statistically) to be crooks than Republicans. Care to bet?

Democrats are much less likely to be defending the country. Care to bet?

And incidentally, the sort of common myth about liberals being more educated than conservatives..... the WSJ did a pretty good piece on a big study that shatters that myth, if you want to Google it and read it, so let's not go there.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:41 AM   #236
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Re: A President's Thought

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Er, Santa Cruz is not really part of anything, Jennifer. It, like Boulder, is more like "twenty square miles surrounded by reality".

Actually, I've been watching a related law-suit in the news:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20070806a.html

Best.

Mike Sigman
Actually Santa Cruz is part of a 'country'(California) that has the 7th largest gross national product in the world and the healthiest farmland anywhere in the U.S. as well as a direct, independent relationship with China.

Feel free to call us when your country needs help. Because we are a large radius of generosity surrounded by collapsing 'reality'.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-28-2007 at 09:44 AM.

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Old 08-28-2007, 11:04 AM   #237
Mike Sigman
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Re: A President's Thought

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David Chalk wrote: View Post
Mike with regards to D-Day my point was that we had already prevented invasion (something called the Battle of Britain) - that why there was a Britain by the time US troops became involved. - So I think there was a Britain at that time because there was a Britain - I told you I didn't think history was your strong suit, thanks for demonstating why .
You've mentioned the Battle of Britain before as some sort of school-boy charm, David. And if you look back through the posts, I mentioned that my uncle George (a US citizen, like me) flew for the RAF via the CRAF prior to the US getting into the war officially. What you seem to gloss over is that due to serious errors by the German command structure, Britain was able to win by the skin of its teeth only. In fact, the key to the Battle of Britain was that Britain had been well-supplied by the US and other allies (but mainly the US). Without the US, there would not have been much there. If England had been left, after the B of B to fend for itself, it could have done nothing. It had nothing. The main problem, and I've said it before, for Britain was that it had arrogant, elitist liberals who did nothing to prevent the war and hence directly led to the killing of millions. And those people were not punished after the war.... they went around crowing about how firmly they had stood in the face of an onslaught that they had brought on themselves. And you're the offspring of such, it appears. Your rather skewed version of "history" is a joke in which you honor yourself.
Quote:
The argument that the Kosovo problem is still there. Sorry Mike I don't really think that arguing about soverignty and independance is really the same problem as mass slaughter and ethnic cleansing - it's a 'Liberal' thing. BTW one side - (Serbs) slaughtering another (Ethnic Albanians) isn't a civil war.
No difference in Iraq or any other "civil war". I love how history seems to just start for you.... perhaps you should take a look at previous history where the Albanians slaughtered the Serbs. My question was... what good has the "intervention" done? What has been solved? Nothing. The Europeans have once again stopped all solutions and gone back into "negotiations".... just like they did with Hitler.
Quote:
I also like the "there was never any rational for Americans to be involved in Kosovo" - yeah human rights are only important where there's oil the USA can claim
Let the EU do it. The EU and UK created the mess and then couldn't clean it up. If you don't want a powerful US, quit calling on us to bail you out. Build your own armies to counter the Russians.
Quote:
As far as democratic elections being unlawful - isn't that why you claim the Florida supreme court was unlawful - because they wanted a democratic election.
You're batty. Try learning some facts rather than parrotting partisan shibboleths.

Mike
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:24 AM   #238
Ryan Sanford
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Re: A President's Thought

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK, how's this. Democrats are much, much more certain (statistically) to be crooks than Republicans. Care to bet?

Democrats are much less likely to be defending the country. Care to bet?

And incidentally, the sort of common myth about liberals being more educated than conservatives..... the WSJ did a pretty good piece on a big study that shatters that myth, if you want to Google it and read it, so let's not go there.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Would you mind citing your sources? I'm not certain that I believe you.

"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self." - Aldous Huxley
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:29 AM   #239
Mike Sigman
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Re: A President's Thought

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Ryan Sanford wrote: View Post
Would you mind citing your sources? I'm not certain that I believe you.
I'm looking for quick and easy money, dangit. I'll give you a clue on the first one, though.... think about the prison population and who is in it.

Mike
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:09 PM   #240
Taliesin
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Re: A President's Thought

Mike

I'll try again - so try reading this SLOWLY

We DID win the Battle Of Britain and we DID prevent an invasion of Britian- which isn't the same as England FYI. We also had dominance in the sea thanks to our capture and decoding of the Enigma machine, we also still had our Colonies like Canada, so your point about support is weak (although it is a clever variation on your previous point that with US troops we would have been invaded)

You're point is if things were different they would be different. Hardly a refutation of historical fact. The argument that history based on facts is a joke is only convincing in your own mind. History is based on the facts of what did happen and not what might have happened if things were different. (I believe historians call those 'counter-factuals')

And I guess you don't know who first declared War on Germany. (Clue it wasn't the USA)

Moving onto the Kosovo point - without going too far back since I cannot claim to be an expert in the history of that part of the world. In recent history Serbs, supported by their troops started a programme of ethnic cleansing. They were bombed into submission. Ethnic Albanians then took revenge. Now there is relative peace. Personally I think that people arguing over independance is better than committing slaughter - but then I believe they are different problems. Although I conceed your apparant belief that preventing slaughter and re-establishing a cohesive structure is 'nothing'. BTW the OSCE is the leading body with authoirity for Kosovo. Sill it's your right to believe slaughter is the same as debate.

Moveing on I take it your Homework on Churchill was too hard for you - damn there's all that history being based on those pesky facts again. (But then he was a Liberal)

And finally your advice to 'try learning some facts' - I do, although it helps to understand what the word facts mean - finding it out would certainly help you.

Looking forward to the next mutation of your argument
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:14 PM   #241
Mike Sigman
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Re: A President's Thought

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David Chalk wrote: View Post
Mike

I'll try again - so try reading this SLOWLY
Don't bother. You'd like to portray England as not having needed the help of the US to have survived World War II, a war which was the result of England and France trying to appease Germany. If you think that most of the world believes that, you're fooling yourself. But thanks for all the thanks.... and now you know why most of the American people are far less interested in helping Europe in general in the next conflict that will be started by European inaction and dithering.
Quote:
And I guess you don't know who first declared War on Germany. (Clue it wasn't the USA)
Are you really serious? World War II started because England and France kept appeasing and backing down to German demands. Only when Germany invaded Poland, and ally of GB, was England forced to declare war. All of England and France's dithering and appeasement wound up biting them in the butt and costing millions of lives. A fact which Churchill at least had the dignity to point out. You apparently grew up in an alternate universe from Churchill and I. BTW.... you should be *for* Churchill and not so against him; your fellow liberals, well into the war, were all for capitulating to Hitler. Even though you seem to sneer at the US and Churchill, you'd be speaking German without them and I'd enjoy a better pilsner whenever I visited!

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:39 PM   #242
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm looking for quick and easy money, dangit. I'll give you a clue on the first one, though.... think about the prison population and who is in it.
Victims of Roberto Gonzales and George Bush?

Who runs the prisons?

Mostly Repubs.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:43 PM   #243
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/pat...eKXUBr7toDwLAF

http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/ben...i2iAEf1880vTYC

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickc...DffRXTCG80vTYC

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickc...DffRXTCG8VvTYC

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:56 PM   #244
Mark Freeman
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
World War II started because England and France kept appeasing and backing down to German demands. Only when Germany invaded Poland, and ally of GB, was England forced to declare war. All of England and France's dithering and appeasement wound up biting them in the butt and costing millions of lives. A fact which Churchill at least had the dignity to point out. You apparently grew up in an alternate universe from Churchill and I. BTW.... you should be *for* Churchill and not so against him; your fellow liberals, well into the war, were all for capitulating to Hitler. Even though you seem to sneer at the US and Churchill, you'd be speaking German without them and I'd enjoy a better pilsner whenever I visited!
Meanwhile, back in the early 21st century, Britain, France and Germany co-exist in peace, they do no harm to us and we do no harm to them, we trade, we share values and visions, there's even the occasional sharing of bodily fluids, long may it continue.

History can be re-written, it's happened before, it will happen again, I'm sure.

The US has always acted independently in it's own best interests, why would it do otherwise? Helping other ally countries out in times of strife are not usually acts of altruism, rather acts of enlightened self interest. They think through the alternatives and act accordingly.

When you read and hear criticism of the recent actions taken by the US coming from Europe, it doesn't mean that we are 'America haters' 'It's just that generally, the people here think that GWB has been a thoroughly bad president for the US in terms of global goodwill and fostering productive relationships. We may be in your eyes, delusional in our thinking, perhaps, however there are a growing number of people in the US that seem to also think the same.

How will history be argued over on the 2057 aikiweb ( sorry Jun you can't retire, you have to keep the site going ). Hopefully the 'liberal' word will not be so over and inappropriately used. Hopefully we will have realised that trying to bomb people towards democracy, was a counter productive idea. Hopefully militant religious fundamentalists will have learned to 'chill out' and realise that there are no virgins waiting for them in paradise, they've been sold a lie, to further someone else's cause. Hopefully by then the 'faith' required to believe in crackpot thinking like 'creationism' will be seen for the delusion that it is rather than a 'virtue'. Hopefully by then we will have learned how to elect representatives that we can all respect. Hopefully by then, we will know the real truth about the reality of global warming. Durango might be a lot closer to the coast than it is now

Auf Wiedersehen

Mark
p.s. Churchill was a great wartime leader, who didn't fare so well in peacetime. Opinions about him now are unlikely to change how he is written into the national psyche.

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:00 PM   #245
Mike Sigman
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Re: A President's Thought

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Victims of Roberto Gonzales and George Bush?

Who runs the prisons?

Mostly Repubs.
Perfect answer, David! You just proved the part about liberals and intelligence. Of course Republicans just round up people and put them into prisons, you sly rascal!

Best.

Mike
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:21 PM   #246
Mike Sigman
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Re: A President's Thought

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Meanwhile, back in the early 21st century, Britain, France and Germany co-exist in peace, they do no harm to us and we do no harm to them, we trade, we share values and visions, there's even the occasional sharing of bodily fluids, long may it continue.
Straight from a generation raised on the warm and fuzzy BBC. Of course, you forget about the 50 million people, actual people Mark, who never got a chance to mix their bodily fluids after they got killed in an easily prevented World War II. I notice neither you nor David really want to admit that the appeasers had it totally wrong before WWII and that led to the deaths of so many. But what the hey.... great numbers of people dead are only statistics, eh?
Quote:
The US has always acted independently in it's own best interests, why would it do otherwise?
Not true. Clinton involved the US in Bosnia for no reason that benefitted the US. And many of the missions during and about World War II were for no reason other than maudlin sentiment, not calculation. What the US has been slow to see is that Europe is not really sentimental about the US at all... every gesture is calculated by the European cynics.
Quote:
When you read and hear criticism of the recent actions taken by the US coming from Europe, it doesn't mean that we are 'America haters' 'It's just that generally, the people here think that GWB has been a thoroughly bad president for the US in terms of global goodwill and fostering productive relationships. We may be in your eyes, delusional in our thinking, perhaps, however there are a growing number of people in the US that seem to also think the same.
You've been listening to the BBC and the New York Times too much, Mark. Bush is neither here nor there, although it's interesting to note how you "peace and love" guys hate so much and so constantly that you can't control your tongues.

The sad point is that most people in the US now see all Europeans as self-serving and not worth aiding, given the accumulation of escapades starting with the foxy duplicity of Charles deGaulle and going into the present "allies" that only show their faces in Afghanistan in guaranteed non-combat regions. I'll suggest it again, Mark.... quit worrying so much about the US and its problems. Do you see us wondering out loud about how screwed up the Brits are? We have other hobbies.
Quote:
Hopefully the 'liberal' word will not be so over and inappropriately used.
What? You constantly speak ill of people and then when it comes back at you, you resent it? Isn't that just a little too predictable?
Quote:
Hopefully we will have realised that trying to bomb people towards democracy, was a counter productive idea.
World War II would still be going on if force hadn't been used, Mark. Don't get so emotionally proper.
Quote:
Hopefully militant religious fundamentalists will have learned to 'chill out' and realise that there are no virgins waiting for them in paradise, they've been sold a lie, to further someone else's cause. Hopefully by then the 'faith' required to believe in crackpot thinking like 'creationism' will be seen for the delusion that it is rather than a 'virtue'. Hopefully by then we will have learned how to elect representatives that we can all respect. Hopefully by then, we will know the real truth about the reality of global warming. Durango might be a lot closer to the coast than it is now
I was watching your quick, obligatory remark about "militant religious fundamentalists" and then measuring how much more space you contributed to worrying about your partisan beliefs, Mark. Your "militant religious fundamentalists" are dismissed with the same aplomb that die Braun-Hemden were waved away by appeasers in conversations prior to World War II.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:27 PM   #247
Mark Freeman
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The sad point is that most people in the US now see all Europeans as self-serving and not worth aiding, given the accumulation of escapades starting with the foxy duplicity of Charles deGaulle and going into the present "allies" that only show their faces in Afghanistan in guaranteed non-combat regions.
Mike, a few points:

I hope you are not including the Brits in that, our troops are in the front line dying on a regular basis, killed mostly by the taliban with a few unfortunates copping the occasional 'friendly' fire. I believe we are helping you in the war in Afghanistan. And will probably continue to do so for many bloody years to come.

Lets leave WW1 and WW2 behind, I believe Churchill was right in the run up to the war, and he was right most of the way through it. I don't believe I have written a single word on here so far suggesting otherwise, enough already...

Doesn't the constant vitriol give you heartburn

I'm off to bed,

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:58 PM   #248
Fred Little
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Re: A President's Thought

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Not true. Clinton involved the US in Bosnia for no reason that benefitted the US.
Mike:

Without arguing whether there was a direct benefit or an immediate national interest at stake on the ground in Bosnia, there is the small matter of giving NATO a reason for continued existence in the wake of the breakup of the Soviet Union.

For better or for worse, the Bosnian intervention probably extended NATO's life for a decade or three.

You could argue the "for worse" side, but significant segments of both the military and foreign policy communities (some ostensibly "conservative" and some ostensibly "liberal") see the preservation of NATO as a means of projecting American military power as a paramount US interest that was served by that particular intervention.

Whether the game was worth the candle (or the gain was worth the bodies) is another question entirely, and entirely too nuanced for this venue.

Best,

FL
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:04 PM   #249
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Of course Republicans just round up people and put them into prisons, you sly rascal!
I'm not saying that's all they do, Mike.

They also keep each other out of prison. Like Mark Foley, for instance.

It balances out--at least the way they see it, huh?

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 08-28-2007, 07:07 PM   #250
David Orange
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Re: A President's Thought

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Whether the game was worth the candle (or the gain was worth the bodies) is another question entirely, and entirely too nuanced for this venue.
I don't think so. We could use a bit more of that around here.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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